This is interesting, as irrespective of the terminology or paradigm that you bring, you are teaching that one can be forgiven, born again and placed in the body of Christ yet later become lost.
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Assurance of Salvation
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This is interesting, as irrespective of the terminology or paradigm that you bring, you are teaching that one can be forgiven, born again and placed in the body of Christ yet later become lost.
The thing about it is that the terminology and paradigm is all Biblical. The problem with OSAS is that they throw out all the knowledge of the OT and developed the doctrine from the New Testament letters only, which leads to error.
Let's start from the Old Testament and follow this out to it's conclusion in the New Testament.
What did it take for a person in the OT to be called a Child of God? They had to believe and be cirucumcised physically. Did this make them eternally secure? No God required the sign of the covenant, circumcision, as an outward sign of covenant membership but He often upbraided many of them for not being circumcised of the heart. Paul literally said that he was not a Jew who was only one inwardly(Rom 2:28-29). What does that mean? It means that he was a Jew physically, he was a Jew ceremonially, but he was not a true Jew spiritually. God required the outward sign of covenant membership(circumcision) but he also required the inward sign of circumcision of the heart. The question is if they were circumcised outwardly but not inwardly were they still in covenant with God? Yes they were, but they were not His remnant, His elect. We see this over and over throughout the Bible.
Were they placed into Christ's body when they became an covenant member? Yes, look at John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jesus was telling these Jews that they were branches in Him and this was before the New Covenant came into effect.
Were they born again when they entered into the covenant of God? It was the same as the New Testament, when they came out of the world and entered into the covenant of God it was as if they were born again. A person who came out of the world and entered into covenant was considered saved in the sense that he was delivered from the world.
Were the Old Testament Covenant people of God forgiven?
Lev 5:13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and [the remnant] shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
Now let's look at the New Testament.
What does scripture say is the way to be saved?
Mark 16:He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Peter told the Jews in Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Belief and baptism is the New Testament method that someone enters into the covenant of Christ. Baptism replaced circumcision as the sign of the Covenant. Why? Because circumcision required the shedding of blood and after the crucifixion all blood letting ceremonies were done away with. That is why Passover changed from the killing of a lamb to bread and wine of the Lord's Supper.
Are we placed into Christ's body when we believe and are baptized?
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
There is no difference between the OT saint and the NT saint as far as being in the body of Christ.
I will finish this tomorrow. Have to go now.
GLJCA
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Do you believe someone can can be born again (John 3-6,7), a new creation in Christ (2 Corintians 5-17), a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1-3,4), and adopted as a son of God (Romans 8-15) and still fall away from the faith to the point of becoming lost and hellbound? I`m just trying to understand where you are coming from...
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Hi GLJCA, I have not mixed anything up. I draw a distinction between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, you, not me, seem to want to mix them together. For you, we enter a saving relationship, but we are not really saved till we die while in that relationship. This is Old Covenant works based salvation. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant, where, when we are born again, we are predestined to eternal life. Completely different.
You seem to think the corporate election of the Nation of Israel is the same as the New Covenant. Sorry, but that dog will not hunt.
OASIS is the correct biblical doctrine, not your works based OT theology. This issue that we face is "are we born again?" If we are we will endure, because we are protected (kept) by God Amighty for our inheritance.
If we do not endure, we were never saved. We were never born again. We never had a New Covenant relationship with Christ, where we were in Christ and Christ was in us. Jesus will say on that day, I never knew you, not I knew you when you had a covenant relationship but you fell away.
The New Covenant provides blessed assurance, that we are protected and will endure, and therefore we can risk everything for our salvation is secure.
You seem to think the corporate election of the Nation of Israel is the same as the New Covenant. Sorry, but that dog will not hunt.
OASIS is the correct biblical doctrine, not your works based OT theology. This issue that we face is "are we born again?" If we are we will endure, because we are protected (kept) by God Amighty for our inheritance.
If we do not endure, we were never saved. We were never born again. We never had a New Covenant relationship with Christ, where we were in Christ and Christ was in us. Jesus will say on that day, I never knew you, not I knew you when you had a covenant relationship but you fell away.
The New Covenant provides blessed assurance, that we are protected and will endure, and therefore we can risk everything for our salvation is secure.
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Works does not enter into the equation. I have never said that works has anything to do with someone being ordained to eternal life. Covenant theology is not works based at all. You don't understand it therefore you are making wrong judgments about it. We are saved by grace through faith not of works. Yet we are ordained to walk in good works by God himself.(Eph 2:10) You are misunderstanding my posts if you think that. I have never believed that works are involved in someone being ordained to eternal life.
Again this is because of an unbiblical definition of the term "saved" and what it entails. Your definition forces a faith that is a one time act instead of a lifestyle. When a faith is a one time act it produces error. It forces one to believe that salvation takes place in a moment in time instead of us having been saved, being saved, and will be saved in the future.
There were seeds sown in four different types of ground. The different types of ground represent different types of people.
The first guy received the seed but didn't understand anything and therefore the wicked one stole the seed away from him.
The second guy was stony and hard. He received the seed with joy but had no root. The root could not go down into the hard heart therefore he could not endure to the end.
The third guy received the seed among thorns and when the stalk grew up the cares of the world chocked the life out of it.
The fourth guy received the seed and because the ground was plowed and prepared the seed grew and multiplied.
We see three out of the four types of ground took seed and sprouted up.
When those seeds sprouted did they not have life in them? All but one of the seeds produced life. Is the life in the seed? NO, God is the only one that can produce life. God produced life in the seeds and yet all but one of the seeds died.
Could you say that when the stalks died it was because they were not really seeds in the first place? I don't think so.
Life was produced in the one that received the seeds in the stony places and among the thrones and yet they withered and died.
Again this passage viewed covenantally is not a hard passage to understand.
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Hi GLJCA, I am well familiar with the absurd claim I do not understand my opponent. I understand your works based theology, your Old Covenant theology perfectly. Changing the name of works to faithfulness does not change your theology.
I note you refer to people being ordained to eternal life, but you do not say that occurs after physical death occurs while in a covenant relationship. Rather than telling me I am wrong without stating specifically what your view is, why not present your views with clarity.
Your view of New Covenant salvation is unbiblical, that we are not ordained to eternal life until we physically die. We are ordained to eternal life when we are born again by the will of God when God spiritually baptizes us into Christ after He credits our faith as righteousness during our physical lives, Ephesians 1:5-14.
The parable of the sower is not hard to understand, the first three kinds of soils represent 3 kinds of people who are exposed to the gospel of Christ, yet are not saved, are not born again, and are not therefore indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The fourth kind of soil represents the kind of person who is receptive to the gospel, who commits to Christ with all his or her heart, mind and understanding, which is to say fully, and deeply rooted, and treasures God and not worldly treasures in His heart. This person's faith is credited as righteousness, and the person is spiritually placed in Christ and indwelt, and thus produces fruit, for unless the Spirit of Christ indwells or abides in us, we can do nothing.
The parable is not about different kinds of seeds, GLJCA, but about differing soils. The same seed was sown, but was not united with saving faith in the first three soils, Hebrews 4:2,12.
I note you refer to people being ordained to eternal life, but you do not say that occurs after physical death occurs while in a covenant relationship. Rather than telling me I am wrong without stating specifically what your view is, why not present your views with clarity.
Your view of New Covenant salvation is unbiblical, that we are not ordained to eternal life until we physically die. We are ordained to eternal life when we are born again by the will of God when God spiritually baptizes us into Christ after He credits our faith as righteousness during our physical lives, Ephesians 1:5-14.
The parable of the sower is not hard to understand, the first three kinds of soils represent 3 kinds of people who are exposed to the gospel of Christ, yet are not saved, are not born again, and are not therefore indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The fourth kind of soil represents the kind of person who is receptive to the gospel, who commits to Christ with all his or her heart, mind and understanding, which is to say fully, and deeply rooted, and treasures God and not worldly treasures in His heart. This person's faith is credited as righteousness, and the person is spiritually placed in Christ and indwelt, and thus produces fruit, for unless the Spirit of Christ indwells or abides in us, we can do nothing.
The parable is not about different kinds of seeds, GLJCA, but about differing soils. The same seed was sown, but was not united with saving faith in the first three soils, Hebrews 4:2,12.
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Apparently it really doesn't matter what I say you are going to think what you want about what I believe.
It really bothers you how I can believe that someone can be ordained to eternal life. According to scripture those who were ordained to eternal life believed which tells me that their ordination did not happen at the point they believed.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
I think the Word plainly tells us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I realize that you don't agree with that but it is what the Bible says, not me.
Therefore I believe that those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world are ordained to eternal life. Those are the ones who will persevere to the end and can never lose their salvation because God chose them not visa versa.
I have already shared that lost man can not choose that which is spiritually good because he thinks it is foolish.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
He can not understand the things of God according to Paul.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Therefore to say that lost man has the wherewithal to understand the gospel, believe it, and receive it is just not scriptural.
The bible teaches us that we were the enemies of Christ when He quickened us. We were dead in trespasses and sins and He made our dead spirit alive in Christ.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
If we were saved by our choice or our works then we would have something to boast about. Our salvation is by grace which takes man's choice completely out of it.
Yet I can not nor will I ignore the scriptures that warn us to continue in the faith or we can have believed in vain. We do not know who is ordained to eternal life therefore the writers of the New Testament warn us to continue and persevere in the faith.
GLJCA
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GLJCA, the difference is laid out in the book of Hebrews.
Now if a person is ordained to eternal life before creation, why was his or her name not entered in the Lambs book of life until after creation, from the foundation of the world? How did they live without mercy if they were chosen before the foundation of the world? Your view of Ephesians 1:4 is inconsistent with the balance of scripture and therefore is unsound.
Read 1 Corinthians 2:14 through 3:3, and you will see than unregenerate men, men in the flesh, can understand milk, which is a reference to the milk of the gospel. So you view that they cannot is unbiblical.
You view that a person must be water baptized by men to be saved is unbiblical.
All Romans 3 teaches is that we are all sinners, and so by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified, therefore no one seeks God by the works of the Law. If you look back to the quoted passage in Psalm 14, you will see that God looked down from heaven to see if any understood. If no one could, why would God look down? And then note God saw them, folks who sought the refuge of God. Your view is unbiblical.
Yes we were dead in our sins and tresspasses when God placed us spiritually in Christ after we have received the gospel and believed, and in Christ we were baptized into His death, underwent the circumcision of Christ, and then arose in Christ a new creation, born again from above, to walk in the newness of live, hence regenerated. We are regenerated after we put our full trust in Christ, John 1:12-13.
The writers of the New Testament tell us if we are born again we are predestined to eternal life and therefore we will endure. This issue is whether or not we are born again.
Now if a person is ordained to eternal life before creation, why was his or her name not entered in the Lambs book of life until after creation, from the foundation of the world? How did they live without mercy if they were chosen before the foundation of the world? Your view of Ephesians 1:4 is inconsistent with the balance of scripture and therefore is unsound.
Read 1 Corinthians 2:14 through 3:3, and you will see than unregenerate men, men in the flesh, can understand milk, which is a reference to the milk of the gospel. So you view that they cannot is unbiblical.
You view that a person must be water baptized by men to be saved is unbiblical.
All Romans 3 teaches is that we are all sinners, and so by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified, therefore no one seeks God by the works of the Law. If you look back to the quoted passage in Psalm 14, you will see that God looked down from heaven to see if any understood. If no one could, why would God look down? And then note God saw them, folks who sought the refuge of God. Your view is unbiblical.
Yes we were dead in our sins and tresspasses when God placed us spiritually in Christ after we have received the gospel and believed, and in Christ we were baptized into His death, underwent the circumcision of Christ, and then arose in Christ a new creation, born again from above, to walk in the newness of live, hence regenerated. We are regenerated after we put our full trust in Christ, John 1:12-13.
The writers of the New Testament tell us if we are born again we are predestined to eternal life and therefore we will endure. This issue is whether or not we are born again.
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Again you are mixing up what I have said with what Thomas has said. I have NEVER said that we are ordained to eternal life after we die. I have always maintained that those who are ordained to eternal life are the ones whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Paul says here that the vessels of mercy were prepared afore unto glory, which means that He did not have to wait until they believed to save them. God not only prepared those who were to believe in Him but He also determined or predestined everything about them. He determined their times, the time they were born and the time they are to die, and all things in between, even the place where they are to live.
Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
My God is Sovereign and He has never handed over any part of that Sovereignty to anyone, especially man. The idea that God gave up His Sovereignty so that man could have the power to choose whether he will believe or not believe, is purely ridiculous and unscriptural.
GLJCA
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I never said that a person's name is not written in the book of life until after creation. If you will read Ephesians 1 again it says before the foundation of the world not after the foundation of the world.
David said the same thing in the Psalms.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
Before David even existed his name was written in the book of life.
Jeremiah was ordained to be a prophet before he was even formed in the belly.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
He must have made the choice to believe in the womb.
GLJCA
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GLJCA, you corrected my misstatement in post#67. Therefore, I addressed your actual view, rather than my errant conjecture in post #69.
Paul is saying God took action before to prepare for vessels of mercy and for vessels of wrath. Let's see if this is a reference to the fall, which made the many sinners, thus preparing everyone for destruction, and God chose His Son to be the Lamb, preparing for His bestowal of mercy upon those who believe. That is why He is being patient toward us (believers with the ministry of reconcilation) so that through us He might make known the riches of His glory (Jesus Christ our Lord and our God).
Acts 17:26 is describing how God established nations and the locations of those nations.
Paul is saying God took action before to prepare for vessels of mercy and for vessels of wrath. Let's see if this is a reference to the fall, which made the many sinners, thus preparing everyone for destruction, and God chose His Son to be the Lamb, preparing for His bestowal of mercy upon those who believe. That is why He is being patient toward us (believers with the ministry of reconcilation) so that through us He might make known the riches of His glory (Jesus Christ our Lord and our God).
Acts 17:26 is describing how God established nations and the locations of those nations.
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GLJCA, you said before and said again in Post #71 that people were chosen before, repeat before, the foundation of the world. So I assume, because you avoid making clear statements, that you believe the people's names were written in the Lamb's book of life before, repeat before creation. Now if this is correct, then why does scripture imply the names were written from, repeat from or after, creation? I referenced Revelation 17:8. If you view was correct, Revelation 17:8 would say before rather than from. My view consistent with Revelation 17:8 is our names are entered when we are placed spiriturally in the body of Christ, becoming part of the general assembly, during our physical lives, which is from or since the foundation of the world.
Psalm 139:16 does not refer to the Lamb's book of life, but another "book" written by God.
Jeremiah is referring to when (after he was conceived but before he was fully formed in the womb) God chose him to be His prophet. This verse addresses election for another purpose of God, not New Covenant election to be a people for God's own possession. But note this, Jeremiah was chosen during his lifetime, at the very start, and not before creation.
Psalm 139:16 does not refer to the Lamb's book of life, but another "book" written by God.
Jeremiah is referring to when (after he was conceived but before he was fully formed in the womb) God chose him to be His prophet. This verse addresses election for another purpose of God, not New Covenant election to be a people for God's own possession. But note this, Jeremiah was chosen during his lifetime, at the very start, and not before creation.
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Are you saying that the book of Corinthians was written to lost people? What is an unregenerate man? It is a man that has not been quickened. It is a man who is still dead in sin. You seriously can't believe that the Christians at Corinth were still dead in their sin.
If you will read again 1Cor 2:1-14 you will see that Paul was distinguishing between the lost and the Corinthian Christians. Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth that they were carnal so they could only handle the milk and not strong meat of the gospel but they were Covenant Christians not unregenerate.
Do you see the lengths that you have to go to maintain this OSAS belief?
Again you misrepresent what I have said. I do not believe that one who is ordained to eternal life has to be baptized to go to heaven. I do believe that baptism is the sign of New Covenant membership. I do believe that baptism enters us into the Covenant with Christ where salvation is. Jesus told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews. What did that mean to you? Did it mean that all the Jews were going to heaven when they died?
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
That is not what Eph 2:5 is saying and I think you know that your argument is weak.
I am astounded that you would use the 13th verse of John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
That verse completely refutes everything you have said above. John says that those who are born of God are born not of their will, but of the will of God. You in turn are saying that man by his will chooses to believe the gospel, which goes completely against what this verse says.
Humanism gives man power that he doesn't have. In fact Jesus told His disciples that they did not choose Him but He chose them.
I am giving you scripture after scripture that plainly show that man is completely unable to choose that which is good and yet you are going to hang on to the humanistic belief that man chooses salvation. Man in no way has the power to choose that which is against his sinful nature.
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Ecc 9:3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.
Pro 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, [and] the plowing of the wicked, [is] sin.
Even when he is doing something that is good, he does it for the wrong reasons. Nothing that lost man can do is spiritually good, therefore how in the world can he do something righteous?
I know it is useless to ask you to provide even one scripture showing that man in his lost condition can do anything righteous because there aren't any. This belief did not come from scripture.
What the OSAS crowd has to do is use the letters written to the Church of Jesus Christ to prove their points, which in reality disproves their points. The letters written to the Churches were written to Christians, the covenant people of Christ, not lost people.
Every man born on this earth is born with a dead spirit because of Adam's sin. Can a dead man climb out of the coffin? Neither can a man with a dead spirit climb out of Hell. God has to regenerate(quicken) man before man can do anything righteous. Do you really believe that unregenerate man can do that which is righteous? Have you really thought about what you are saying?
GLJCA
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You are using one scripture speaking of Christians being chosen before the foundation of the world in Ephesians 1:4, and the devil and his followers whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world in Rev 17:8. What I can't get over is that you are rejecting the one speaking about when Christians are chosen and you are choosing to believe the one speaking of the followers of the devil and you can't see the difference between the two. You using a scripture that has nothing to do with Christians and applying it to them.
Obviously the names of those who are followers of the devil will not have been written in the book of life from before the foundation of the world since only the names of those who are the chosen of God, will be written BEFORE the foundation of the world.
Another obvious thing is that if their names were never written in the book of life they could not have been blotted out. Only someone whose name is in the book of life could possibly be blotted out.Rev 3:5 If the Bible gives the possibility of it happening, it is possible, or else the Bible is not inspired of God.
GLJCA
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Ok so why don't you show me scripture saying that lost unregenerate man can do that which is righteous?
Try to keep from using scripture written to Christians or God's Covenant people, as they are not lost and unregenerate. This will probably take a while to research cause there aren't any scriptures that you will be able to find unless you take one completely out of context.
There are many scriptures though that say that lost unregenerate man can do nothing righteous.
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
A lost man can not do anything righteous. It is impossible and unscriptural. What I can't believe is that you would even be trying to imply that lost man can do that which is righteous.
I will be waiting for your scriptures.
GLJCA
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Do you believe someone can can be born again (John 3-6,7), a new creation in Christ (2 Corintians 5-17), a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1-3,4), and adopted as a son of God (Romans 8-15) and still fall away from the faith to the point of becoming lost and hellbound? I`m just trying to understand where you are coming from...
I do not believe someone who is ordained to eternal life by God can fall away from the faith but I do believe that one can be a child of God, have their sins forgiven, be a covenant member, and walk away from the faith.
Let's take the Covenant people of God that left Egypt for example. They were all called the Children of God. They all drank from the Rock, which was Christ.(1Cor 10:4) They all ate the manna in the wilderness, which was a type of the bread of heaven, Christ.(1Cor 10:3) Yet all but two died in the wilderness and did not enter into God's rest. (Heb 3:17-18)
When a person enters into the Covenant of God he has been taken out of the world and placed into the body of Christ. He has been born again.
In fact I think all of your scenario was answered in Heb 6:4-6. This person was a partaker of the Holy Spirit, which is defined as;
1) sharing in, partaking 2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)
This would be impossible for someone to partake or be a sharer in the Holy Spirit and not be saved. The key to the whole argument is the redefinition of the term "saved" by OSAS. The word saved never has meant that one was eternally secure in heaven. It has always meant that the person was "delivered" from the world and placed into the covenant people of God.
The Bible gives the possibility of Apostacy. Esau did it. Judas did it. Simon the sorcerer did it. Ananias and Saffira did it and were killed for it. Paul warned Gentile Christians in Romans 11 that it could happen. He warned the Corinthians that it could happen in 1Cor 15:1-2. He warned to Colossians that it could happen in Col 1:21-23. Apostacy is a real thing that Christians need to guard themselves against because as I have said many times no one knows who is ordained to eternal life and who isn't.
GLJCA
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No, I did not say who Corinthians is written to. Why bring up non-germaine stuff? An unregenerate man is a man that has not been born again. Regenerate means rebirth. I am addrerssing the passage, and you seem to be avoiding the very text being discussed. Do you see "men of flesh?" Please address the topic.
I am addressing the topic. And I am not questioning your motives.
GLJCA, Paul is drawing a distinction between mature Christions who have learned spiritual things from our indwelt Spirit, and babes in Christ who have yet to learn from the indwelt Spirit. But they became babes in Christ because they could understand the milk of the gospel before they were born again.
GLJCA, either water baptism is required or it is not, which is it? The bible says it is not, in my opinion. Do you agree?
John 4:22 is non-germaine to the topic.
I do not question your motives. Questioning motives is a sign that the person believes their argument is weak, and therefore they seek to bolster it by attacking the opponent personally. Ephesians 2:5 says [God] even when we were dead in our transgressions made us alive together with Christ [when we are spiritually put in Christ we are made alive together with Christ] (by grace you have been saved). So it says exactly what I said.
John 1:12-13 completely supports what I said, for God puts us in Christ, after we have received the gospel, so the order is we hear and receive the gospel, God credits our faith as righteousness, God puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are spiritually baptized into Christ's death and undergo the circumcision of Christ, then arise in Christ a new creation, born again by the will of God. John 1:12-13 supports my view and obliterates the idea that regeneration comes before God credits our faith as righteousness.
All the scriptures you have posted clearly support my position. Everyone of them. None support your position, not one of them.
Jer 17:9 says unregenerate men are corrupt. But does not address whether in that unregenerate state men can understand the milk of the gospel, so it is non-germaine to the topic. But 1 Corinthians 2:14 to 3:3 does address the ability of men in the flesh to understand milk.
Nothing unregenerate men do is good, but God can take our worthless faith and credit it as righteousness. Got it?
You say in one post God foreordain some individuals to eternal life, yet in another that once saved always saved is invalid.
Matthew 13:20-22 demonstrates that being spiritually dead does not entail not being about to understand the gospel, and not being able to seek God, for the gospel was received with joy.
The issue is not what a man of flesh can do anything righteous, the issue is can he seek God, understand the gospel and receive it with joy and the answer from scripture is yes.
GLJCA, everyone whose name was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Therefore the idea is names are entered in the book and these are the ones not thrown in the fire. When were the names not entered. Before or from? From. So when were the names entered? Before or from? From. QED Your view of Ephesians 1:4 conflicts with Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 17:8 and on and on. Scripture does not say "from before" it says from. Words have meaning.
The bible does not "give the possibility" that names will be blotted out, it says names entered will not be blotted out, and the names not found were never written in. Your view is not a biblically possiblity.
I did not say unregenerate can do righteous acts, why change the subject, I said God credits our faith as righteousness, so it could not be righteous before God credits it. Words have meaning. Try to address the topic and not change it.
I have referred to Psalm 14, Psalm 51, 1 Corinthians 2:14-33, John 1:12-13, Acts 16:30-31 and on and on. Total Depravity is a mistaken view of scripture.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to enlightened but unregenerate folks, just like Matthew 13:20-22. They are contrasted with saved folks in verse 9. Your assertion is based on an out of context argument.
Scripture speaks of two types of Apostasy, and warns against both. The weed, the enlightened but unsaved person can fall away from the hope of the gospel, the threshold of salvation. And the born again wheat can be lead astray by false doctrine into ineffective ministry, such that they still enter heaven, but bring little or no rewards, as on escaping from a fire.
When we test ourselves at communion and our heart does not convict us, we have the blessed assurance that Jesus is mine, oh what a foretaste of glory divine, we are heirs of salvation, the purchase of God. May God bless you as you grow in your understanding of God's word.
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Ok Let's address the topic.
1Cor 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Paul is showing the difference between the natural man understanding the things of God and those of the Church. The reason that a natural man can not understand the things of God is shown above. It says the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Natural man is devoid of the Spirit of God therefore he can not understand the things that can only be understood through the Spirit. The holy Spirit compares spiritual things with spiritual the lost or natural man can only compare physical things with physical.
Written below is what you said earlier, which is quite different from what you are saying above. You said below that we are quickened after we believed which is not what the Bible says and it isn't what you said above.
There is quite a bit of difference there. You were putting the caboose ahead of the engine, my friend.
Again Paul's letter to the Corinthians was written to Christians which can not be equated with lost people.
Are you saying that a Christian in the flesh is equal to an unregenerate man?
Does a Christian in the flesh not have the Holy Spirit living in him?
Isn't it the Holy Spirit that reveals to the Christian the things of God?
No I guess I don't get it. Could you show some scripture where a lost and unregenerate man believed God and it was credited for righteousness.
Again you will have to use scripture that apply to covenant people which does not prove your point. God's covenant people are regenerate.
No there is no conflict at all. Ephesians is addressing and dealing with Christians whose names were written before the foundation of the world by God himself.
Revelation is not dealing with Christians but the devil's followers whose names were not written in the book of life. What the verse does not say is that anyone's names are written FROM the foundation of the world. In fact it doesn't even imply that.
So that should show you that the Christians name is written before the foundation of the world but the unregenerate man's name isn't.
You can not apply scripture speaking about the lost, to Christians. You have done that with 1Cor 2:14 and now with Rev 17:8. That breaks all the laws of interpretation. When you break the laws of interpretation you can make the Word say whatever you want.
GLJCA
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