Assurance of Salvation

[Thomas35]

but scripture says they will all through 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1, 6:10.

Lets go over these verses, Thomas35 and see what they seem to say. In 1 Timothy 1:19 scripture says some make shipwreck of their faith. What does this mean, that their faith was protected or unprotected? Unprotected. So these rejected the gospel, and were never saved. The were enlightened, and early on looked externally like a Christian, but they were never born again. Handed over to Satan means excluded from fellowship within the church - outside the church belongs to Satan - so Paul is treating them as unbelievers.

1 Timothy 4:1 takes about some "falling away from the faith" which refers to adherance to sound doctrine, they are led astray by false teachings. So while our faith - our devotion to Christ - is protected, our walk is not protected, thus we can be led astray into ineffective ministry, still getting into heaven but bringing no rewards like someone escaping from a fire.

1 Timothy 6:10 simply restates Christ's teaching in Matthew 13:22. Folks who were enlightened, but still treasured the things of this world and therefore their faith was not reckoned as righteousness and they were never born again. Do not confuse exhortions to engage in a productive life "in Christ" after being born again with the threat of loss of the benefits of salvation, by not sticking to sound doctrine, with loss of salvation.

Lets consider Luke 12:35, is the slave a believer or does he get assigned a place among the unbelievers? Unbelievers. He was a phony, like a weed growing among the wheat, that looks like a wheat, but at the end of the day, the fruit is worthless. I do not see in the text where the slave served the master for his whole life, but simply did not serve in well while the master was briefly absent. The slave lacks a heart-felt commitment to serve His master. Simply put, when we are enlightened by receiving the gospel, we either fully commit to it and God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually "in Christ" or we do not fully commit to Christ, and God does not credit our faith as righteousness and does not spiritually place us in Christ. Everyone who is entrusted with much, much will be required, and if they trample on the word of God, they will be cut to pieces.

Lets consider John 10:28-29, and the meaning of snatch. They will never perish, means they will never perish. So if Satan induces them to wander out of God's hand, they will perish. So that idea does not seem to fit with what John is saying. The idea, rather is God almighty keeps us such that we will never Perish.

Lets consider snatch or pluck, or to pull away. Yes the idea presented is no one can take with power something out of God's hand because God is more powerful than anyone or anything else. But this does not leave open the door for deception, that is simply snatching someone away by guile rather than overt force.

Yes our job in Christ is to fight the good fight, to be faithful to Christ, to serve Him, but that truth does not conflict with being kept by God for our inheritance such that we will never perish. Paul piled up rewards, and we should strive to pile up eternal incorruptable rewards - helping plant, water and till the soil, such that we hasten the day of Christ's return.

We not only need to find the narrow path that leads to life, we need to stay on the path, following Jesus, all the way home. We need to stick to the pure gospel and not get sidetracked into ineffective ministry. And we need to test ourselves to see if we are of the faith, as we look foreward to Christ saying "Welcome home, faithful servant. "

Van I don't see where you get this unprotected and protected faith. I see weak faith and strong faith in the bible.

 

[Van]

I base the idea on 1 Peter 1:3-5. In verse three the group being discussed is born again. Now it says, verse 4, that we are born again to an inheritance, so the idea is that after we are born again we are a spiritual child of God, and as a child of God we have an inheritance, reserved in heaven for us. We are protected (kept) by the power of God (verse 5) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Now the verse says through faith, and the Greek word translated through is "dia" which means "by the means of" so we are kept by means of faith. Now the action is God's not ours, He is the one protecting by means of faith, so in other words, God protects our faith such that receive our inheritance reserved in heaven for us. The "loss of salvation or we are not really saved until physcial death" crowd might say God's protection is contrained by our faith rather than God protects our faith, but then we are not protected or kept such that we get our reserved inheritance. So that view does not seem solid to me.

As another line of evidence, I offer Ephesians 1:11 which says that "In Him" meaning we are born again, also we have obtained an inheritance, same idea as 1 Peter 1:3-5, having been predestined ... which refers, I believe to the truth that when we are born again we are predestined to inherit eternal life... and also once "in Him" we are sealed in Him, with the Holy Spirit of promise as a pledge of our inheritance, our redemption as God's own possession which refers to our bodily resurrection at the second coming of Christ. And for how long are we indwelt? Scripture says forever, so again Once Actually Saved, Its settled.

 

[Thomas35]

I base the idea on 1 Peter 1:3-5. In verse three the group being discussed is born again. Now it says, verse 4, that we are born again to an inheritance, so the idea is that after we are born again we are a spiritual child of God, and as a child of God we have an inheritance, reserved in heaven for us. We are protected (kept) by the power of God (verse 5) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Now the verse says through faith, and the Greek word translated through is "dia" which means "by the means of" so we are kept by means of faith. Now the action is God's not ours, He is the one protecting by means of faith, so in other words, God protects our faith such that receive our inheritance reserved in heaven for us. The "loss of salvation or we are not really saved until physcial death" crowd might say God's protection is contrained by our faith rather than God protects our faith, but then we are not protected or kept such that we get our reserved inheritance. So that view does not seem solid to me.

As another line of evidence, I offer Ephesians 1:11 which says that "In Him" meaning we are born again, also we have obtained an inheritance, same idea as 1 Peter 1:3-5, having been predestined ... which refers, I believe to the truth that when we are born again we are predestined to inherit eternal life... and also once "in Him" we are sealed in Him, with the Holy Spirit of promise as a pledge of our inheritance, our redemption as God's own possession which refers to our bodily resurrection at the second coming of Christ. And for how long are we indwelt? Scripture says forever, so again Once Actually Saved, Its settled.

First off I am enjoying the discussion.
What I have been through and where I'm at in my relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't think I would ever wander away from Him. I know I have grace and have great joy in His protection from anything that comes my way. When I am going through difficult time thats when I get to see just how great God is. I aways come out of my difficulty with a greater love for Him.

I read the same verses in 1 Peter and I never have seen where its God faith. God does not need faith. God is faithful, we must keep our faith in Him and Him alone. We are sealed if we have faith in Jesus Christ.

What we must see is 2000 years ago it was all finished. Everyone can have this great salvation to come if we keep our faith in Jesus.
When we stumble thats what grace is all about. But I see many who use that grace very cheap and those are the ones I'm very concerned for. Our faith is built up through the Word of God. People must realize this is something nobody can do for them. They must seek God with everything they have. I'm addicted to God's Word.
I have a lot of family members who think their fine and on their way to heaven. They will tell you they are OSAS!!!!!!!!
This is what scares me about the the way people look at this doctrine.

God Bless

 

[Rick Otto]

"OSAS gives people who are not walking with God a false sense that because they made a profession of faith that have gotten a free get out of jail card. It ain't like that."
>>>Well, it is & it isn't.
Only He could afford our bail, so it was free for us, but as Paul says, des that mean we should sin so that grace may abound all the more? God Forbid.

I agree it is a serious concern that people abuse doctrines to their convenience, but I think it is no more true of reform doctrine than it is of anyone else's. Look at how others make salvation into a wroks based system of merit.
How do you deny or demote Preservation Of The Saints (the "P" in TULIP perjoratively named OSAS) without turning grace into merit?

 

[Thomas35]

"OSAS gives people who are not walking with God a false sense that because they made a profession of faith that have gotten a free get out of jail card. It ain't like that."
>>>Well, it is & it isn't.
Only He could afford our bail, so it was free for us, but as Paul says, des that mean we should sin so that grace may abound all the more? God Forbid.

I agree it is a serious concern that people abuse doctrines to their convenience, but I think it is no more true of reform doctrine than it is of anyone else's. Look at how others make salvation into a wroks based system of merit.
How do you deny or demote Preservation Of The Saints (the "P" in TULIP perjoratively named OSAS) without turning grace into merit?

People need to see that the work of our salvation was completed 2000 years ago. All we have to is accept this on faith. Our effort must be in build and holding on to our faith.
Jesus said in Luke 13:24 to make every effort to enter through the narrow door. That effort is in our faith, and we must remain in the faith until death, or Christ return.

God Bless

 

[LadyBikerButterfly]

What an interesting discussion - I always find these theological debate type threads so captivating. I'm 50 years old and I did accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior when I was ten years old. Being raised in Christian home and going to church (fundamental Baptist) usually produces children saved at a young age. I would never speak for anyone else, but I know that over the years following I struggled tremendously and had a very hard time growing spiritually. Looking back I can see it so much more clearly. The "Footprints" story comes to mind. Many times when I "felt" so abandoned by God I can see how much growth really took place. I had very little ability to follow Christ, it was Him who made me able to follow Him.

God made salvation so clear by using the analogy of physical birth, you know when Nicodemus asked about being born again. Spiritual birth is just like physical birth only spiritually. It's a real and true thing that happens and it's obvious and logical and implied that it's a birth that takes place. So how can you reverse that? To me that settles the other stuff that both sides use to debate the issue. My two cents, anyway!

I know some people from childhood that supposedly "got saved" and now to see and hear them you know they really did not. One of my best girlfriends at church who was raised in a non-practicing Catholic home responded to someone from the bus ministry who came to her home. She started taking the bus to church when she was about fourteen years old. She was an extrovert/sanguine who had a functional alcoholic father and a laid-back "whatever" type mom. After going to secular college for four years she came out with a mind set that her salvation was just something crammed down her throat. She was married and had one child and divorced. She resides in a different state and is a Unitarian (all is God and God is all and every belief is ok and nothing is absolute and blah.........)
We were not in contact for many years and hooked up again through classmates.com. We emailed each other for three years and during those three years my husband got saved and the Lord drew me back to Himself. My husband and I both quit drinking and also pot for him - all overnight. Now it's five years later and I am in awe at what the Lord has done with us. !!! I confronted my friend and asked her about when she used to go door to door trying to get little kids to come to church and I went with her a few times. She joined the bus ministry as she was so grateful for how it effected her own life. I could never get a straight answer from her. She was so into being non-confrontational and into love and peace and all that stuff. I tried to get her to talk about Jesus, but all I ever got was God talk. Jesus was just one way in her mind it seemed. All this just to say that there are many people who seemingly get saved and then they "fall away". I know in my mind I knew I was saved even when I was an alcoholic for ten years. it's a matter of the heart. I never thought of my salvation as as "get out of jail free card". I never thought I was "OK" as an alcoholic. I knew God's grace was supporting me in this state and I was miserable most of the time except when I was drunk. God knew how hard I was trying to quit and how badly I wanted out. I finally gave up one day and told him if he wanted me he would have to take alcohol from me as I could not do it. I told Him I loved drinking and it would take a miracle. My husband was an alcoholic just like me but not quite as bad and he had started smoking pot behind my back again as he quit for me when he met for five years. A series of circumstances occurred and God was in full control. I have been "saved" for this whole 40 years. Granted many that go thru similar are not really saved. God knows the heart, not you nor I.

I think it's a really bad idea to cram OSAS mentality down someones throat but I do understand that OASIS! Those who glibly talk about salvation as if entitled, well I would also question them. But to not understand spiritual birth as such a real thing like physical birth - that's not good.

I have written way too much and I do apologize - I have to go now anyway so that's a good thing.

 

[nobdysfool]

What an interesting discussion - I always find these theological debate type threads so captivating. I'm 50 years old and I did accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior when I was ten years old. Being raised in Christian home and going to church (fundamental Baptist) usually produces children saved at a young age. I would never speak for anyone else, but I know that over the years following I struggled tremendously and had a very hard time growing spiritually. Looking back I can see it so much more clearly. The "Footprints" story comes to mind. Many times when I "felt" so abandoned by God I can see how much growth really took place. I had very little ability to follow Christ, it was Him who made me able to follow Him.

God made salvation so clear by using the analogy of physical birth, you know when Nicodemus asked about being born again. Spiritual birth is just like physical birth only spiritually. It's a real and true thing that happens and it's obvious and logical and implied that it's a birth that takes place. So how can you reverse that? To me that settles the other stuff that both sides use to debate the issue. My two cents, anyway!

I know some people from childhood that supposedly "got saved" and now to see and hear them you know they really did not. One of my best girlfriends at church who was raised in a non-practicing Catholic home responded to someone from the bus ministry who came to her home. She started taking the bus to church when she was about fourteen years old. She was an extrovert/sanguine who had a functional alcoholic father and a laid-back "whatever" type mom. After going to secular college for four years she came out with a mind set that her salvation was just something crammed down her throat. She was married and had one child and divorced. She resides in a different state and is a Unitarian (all is God and God is all and every belief is ok and nothing is absolute and blah.........)
We were not in contact for many years and hooked up again through classmates.com. We emailed each other for three years and during those three years my husband got saved and the Lord drew me back to Himself. My husband and I both quit drinking and also pot for him - all overnight. Now it's five years later and I am in awe at what the Lord has done with us. !!! I confronted my friend and asked her about when she used to go door to door trying to get little kids to come to church and I went with her a few times. She joined the bus ministry as she was so grateful for how it effected her own life. I could never get a straight answer from her. She was so into being non-confrontational and into love and peace and all that stuff. I tried to get her to talk about Jesus, but all I ever got was God talk. Jesus was just one way in her mind it seemed. All this just to say that there are many people who seemingly get saved and then they "fall away". I know in my mind I knew I was saved even when I was an alcoholic for ten years. it's a matter of the heart. I never thought of my salvation as as "get out of jail free card". I never thought I was "OK" as an alcoholic. I knew God's grace was supporting me in this state and I was miserable most of the time except when I was drunk. God knew how hard I was trying to quit and how badly I wanted out. I finally gave up one day and told him if he wanted me he would have to take alcohol from me as I could not do it. I told Him I loved drinking and it would take a miracle. My husband was an alcoholic just like me but not quite as bad and he had started smoking pot behind my back again as he quit for me when he met for five years. A series of circumstances occurred and God was in full control. I have been "saved" for this whole 40 years. Granted many that go thru similar are not really saved. God knows the heart, not you nor I.

I think it's a really bad idea to cram OSAS mentality down someones throat but I do understand that OASIS! Those who glibly talk about salvation as if entitled, well I would also question them. But to not understand spiritual birth as such a real thing like physical birth - that's not good.

I have written way too much and I do apologize - I have to go now anyway so that's a good thing.

Thanks for your testimony! Having been through somewhat similar circumstances myself, although not quite as dramatic as yours (I'm not an alcoholic, didn't like drugs, and barely tolerate the ones I have to take for RA), I know that God was there, holding me and sustaining me when I ran from Him after my first marriage fell apart. There were times I didn't think He cared, because I didn't see or feel His Presence, but looking back He walked me and guided me through every step, leading me back to Him, and blessing me as I returned to Him. He never left me.

That doesn't fit too well with the theology of some here, who insist that wilfull or ongoing sin completely negates salvation. Experience has taught both you and I that this just isn't so. Once we have been born from above, we are His, and He will see us through to the end, even if our own choices force Him to take us early. Chastisement can include physical death, in order that the spirit be saved. That upends the "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" applecart, but so be it. That applecart needs to be overturned. And yes, not everyone who makes the profession, or says the Sinner's Prayer, has truly been saved. Those who are born from above produce the fruit. Those who just say the words sooner or later fall away, because they had no root in themselves, not being born from above.

Again, thanks for your testimony!

 

[lightninboy]

"OSAS gives people who are not walking with God a false sense that because they made a profession of faith that have gotten a free get out of jail card. It ain't like that."
>>>Well, it is & it isn't.
Only He could afford our bail, so it was free for us, but as Paul says, des that mean we should sin so that grace may abound all the more? God Forbid.

I agree it is a serious concern that people abuse doctrines to their convenience, but I think it is no more true of reform doctrine than it is of anyone else's. Look at how others make salvation into a wroks based system of merit.
How do you deny or demote Preservation Of The Saints (the "P" in TULIP perjoratively named OSAS) without turning grace into merit?

You are right, Rick!

 

[Van]

Hi Thomas35, the idea of 1 Peter 1:3-5 is not that we are kept through God's faith, but through God's protection of our faith. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit after we are spiritually placed in Christ, and we are spiritually placed in Christ after God reckons our faith in Christ as righteousness.

Yes, that is why OASIS presents the biblical truth, the issue is when we test ourselves, are we of the faith? If we are not, we were never saved. But if our commitment is full blown, holding nothing back, God will credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us in Christ where we are born again with an inheritance of eternal life, and then we are sealed in Him as a pledge that we are predestined to receive that inheritanct reserved in heaven for us.

 

[lightninboy]

Salvation occurs when one believes and is baptized into the Covenant of Christ and becomes a part of the kingdom of Christ.

GLJCA, does Covenant Theology require water baptism for salvation?

 

[LadyBikerButterfly]

Nobdysfool: Thank you for your kind remarks.

There are so many examples of people I know and I'm sure all of you know that fit the description talked about here where they say the sinner's prayer or they say or do something and someone tells them they are saved now and they fall away so soon. One girl I know told me she got saved once. She was going to a church and the pastor said to say this prayer with him and she did and at the end he told all who said that prayer with him to come forward. She was then told she was now saved and informed on how she should live and sent her merry way. What a disgrace to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We heard a guy we just met recently who joined a secular motorcycle club to witness from the inside out say the other day that he has gotten so many people to say the sinner's prayer with him when giving them pre-marriage counseling. He commented on it like it was some kind of cool witnessing idea he came up with. He was actually bragging about it. Now you tell me - does this guy even have a clue? Not to mention that when the Bible says "come out from among them" rather implies not to join a secular motorcycle club. HELLLOOOOO!!!! Is anybody home?

There are countless examples of misguided people who are very irresponsible with the gospel and sloppy to boot. In my 40 year Christian experience I have seen and heard a lot and if I kept my eyes on it all I would be devastated, BUT - just like when Peter took his eyes off of Jesus and started to sink we too sink a nd lose perspective when we take our eyes off of Jesus. When we follow the Lord we get the bigger picture.

We have to remember that Rom. 3:11 tells us that there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God and John 6:39 Jesus speaking says He shall lose none the Father has given Him. With these truths in mind we can know that God is still in control and that we never have to live in the shadow of the fear of people believing wrongly about their own salvation. When we meet one who is we can be thankful God has crossed our paths and point them in the direction of the truth that following the Lord produces a life with spiritual fruit. "You shall know them by their fruit." "Without repentance their is no remission of sins." “You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

So there is definitely an imbalance among the OSAS's of which camp I am in simply because of the overwhelming evidence in God's Word and the imbalance is primarily leaning towards those who are resting in the fact of something "THEY DID" also called "getting saved" and a majority most likley never read the Bible or pray much. They probably go to church and attend church functions, etc. but never really go much deeperwith the Lord. Are they truly saved. I do not know their hearts so I will not decide nor could I accurately decide. All I can do is pray for them and be as real as possible to them. By real I mean honest and let the Lord use me in their lives in whatever way he chooses. To love them more, to enlighten them more, to convict them, etc. We're all individuals in different places in our lives and God knows how to get to us so we need to just be available and stay out of defending one OSAS camp over the other OSNAS.

Man, I really need to learn how to articulate in less words. I am in awe of those who can do that.

 

[GLJCA]

How do you deny or demote Preservation Of The Saints (the "P" in TULIP perjoratively named OSAS) without turning grace into merit?

Good question. If you take the one point and make it stand alone then one can say that it turns grace into merit, but if you take all of the points of Calvinism in total, you will see that they all stand or fall together. You can not believe in three points of Calvinism with compromising the other two points.

Such as if you say that you do not believe in Unconditional election then you will have to compromise the first point of Total depravity. In other words if God does not have the Sovereignty to unconditional elect His people, and they have the choice to choose or to reject His gospel then you have to compromise the belief that man is totally depraved. You have to make man able to choose that which is good when the Bible says he is spiritually dead in sin. We see people jumping back and forth with these points all the time. Baptist say that man can choose whether he wants to believe the gospel or not, yet they believe that man's heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. They believe that man can not understand the things of God, They believe that man does not seek after God. Yet they believe that man will seek after and believe in God when presented with a spiritual message that does not made sense to a lost person.(1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.) Those two beliefs do not go together yet Baptist freely put them together in their doctrinal statment. Why?

Preseverance of the saints has nothing to do with merit. The 5th point of Calvinism teaches that those who are ordained to eternal life will persevere in the faith because they are perserved by God. They will produce the works that accompany salvation until the end. I know that the words "good works" are words that the OSAS crowd hate to hear yet they are scriptural.

Again if you would have studied the 5 points of Calvinism you would not have had to ask that question. Yet you ask it because you have probably heard someone, or read someone's version of what Calvin taught.

OSAS takes one side of what the Bible teaches and runs with it, while ignoring the other side. You will accept verses like Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
While you ignore passages like Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The last time I checked they are both God's Word yet you accept one and reject the other. What's with that?

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Salvation occurs when one believes and is baptized into the Covenant of Christ and becomes a part of the kingdom of Christ.

GLJCA, does Covenant Theology require water baptism for salvation?

Why is it that you will not answer my questions concerning OSAS but you will ask me questions about Covenant Theolgy?

That is spiritual cowardice.

When you start answering mine, I will answer your's.

This is a discussion not a monologue.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Van or really anyone who wants to address this,

I noticed that no one addressed post #13 so I will post it again.

Could you please address it this time?

Here are some points that Van posted and I commented on.

Now if we look at John 5:24, we do not see the idea that as long as you believe, but rather the person who believes has already passed out of death into life. So we have two possibilities, either when we are actually born again, our faith is protected such that we will endure (1 Peter 1:3-5) or we can undo our born again status. Since we were born by the will of God, and He is Almighty, it is difficult to see how we pluck ourselves out of his hand. Soteriology has two views of this situation, when we are spiritually placed in Christ it is like being placed in a cell with the door locked by God, hence kept by the power of God, and the view that we are not really kept, God puts us in a cell with the door open such that we can wander out of our own volition. Thus we must stay in the cell by our own willpower, and if we fail, we lose our salvation. This idea undercuts the meaning of "kept."

You know, if we take Prayer for instance and use only one scripture to define it, we will come up with this.
Mt 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Thus many people are deceived into believing that prayer is just a time when I come before God because I want something, and anything I ask for, God has to give it to me because he promised. Yet prayer cannot be defined by one verse, as we see from 1John 5:14. In the same way, one can not use the one verse of, John 5:24, to define what happens at salvation. One has to take all of the verses concerning salvation to define it. When we define salvation using one verse we struggle with verses like this.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
If one side of this statement is true then the other side has to be true also. If a person overcomes, his name will not be blotted out of the book of Life, but if he does not overcome his name will be blotted out.

Now a person's name has to be in the Book of Life to be blotted out of it. The only way a person's name can be in the Book of Life is for that person to be in Christ. He has to be one of the Covenant people of Christ. Yet Christ's revelation through John tells us that a person's name can be blotted out of the book of Life if he does not overcome.

For this person's name to be in the book of life he had to have believed. For his name to be blotted out, he had to have rejected the faith. How does your Once Actually Saved, Its Settled work for this verse?

Please don't be like the Ostrich and stick your head in the sand until this question goes away? If your theology can't answer it then something is wrong with your theology.

This fits with Matthew 7 where folks claimed to have believed, they cast out demons in Christ's name, yet they were never born again, never spiritually placed in Christ, and never indwelt, for Christ said I never knew you. "Knew you" refers to being "in Christ" and the Spirit of Christ being "in us," thus referring to an intimate relationship.

Is this not an intimate relationship gone bad?
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Here is the scenario that you presented in your post concerning what it takes to endure to the end, yet this person fell away. This verse spells out intimacy. He fell away even though he was enlightened(understood the gospel), tasted of the heavenly gift(I believe is a reference to the body of Christ in Communion), he partook of the Holy Spirit(he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit), he studied and ate the Word of God, yet he fell away from the faith.

Soteriology has more than two views on this subject. What happens is these two views you presented often do scripture battle where one side gives their pat scriptures while the other give their verses that contradict the scriptures from the other group. This is unacceptable for Christians to do. Scripture battle teaches that the Bible contradicts itself and produces doubt of the inspiration of God. How can God have inspired a book that contradicts itself? He could not have, and yet we teach that, by our misinterpretation of His Holy and Perfect Word. We must view the Bible as a seamless garment that flows for cover to cover.

The problem with OSAS is that it takes it's belief from Matthew to Revelation and leaves out the Old Testament. Therefore the understanding of God's Covenant has been left out. Our God is a covenant keeping God and if we are His convenant people then that has implications. What are those implications?

GLJCA

 

[Rick Otto]

I asked:

"How do you deny or demote Preservation Of The Saints (the "P" in TULIP perjoratively named OSAS) without turning grace into merit?"

To which you replied:



"Good question. If you take the one point and make it stand alone then one can say that it turns grace into merit,..."

Excuse me G, but I DON'T try to make it "stand alone"
.............................................................

"...but if you take all of the points of Calvinism in total, you will see that they all stand or fall together. You can not believe in [only]three points of Calvinism with[out] compromising the other two points.

I know. I agree.
...............................................

"Those two beliefs do not go together yet Baptist freely put them together in their doctrinal statment. Why?"

>>>>>You'll have to ask a Baptist, G.
...........................................................................

"Preseverance of the saints has nothing to do with merit. The 5th point of Calvinism teaches that those who are ordained to eternal life will persevere in the faith because they are perserved by God." >>>>>Agreed again!
...........................................................................
"I know that the words "good works" are words that the OSAS crowd hate to hear yet they are scriptural."
>>>>>This is the first I've heard of that.
.................................................................

"Again if you would have studied the 5 points of Calvinism you would not have had to ask that question. Yet you ask it because you have probably heard someone, or read someone's version of what Calvin taught."
>>>>>>>Oh, PLEASE! I deserve this condescension?
.......................................................................
"OSAS takes one side of what the Bible teaches and runs with it, while ignoring the other side. You will accept verses like Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
While you ignore passages like Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The last time I checked they are both God's Word yet you accept one and reject the other. What's with that?
........................................................................

What's with that is we don't reject the other. You simply have read too much into Hebrews. "Enlightened" is intellectual. It is NEVER used in any other way(to indicate regeneration).
Tasted the heavenly gift simply means to have heard the Gospel of Jesus, partakers doesn't necessarily mean indwelling(Matt7:22).
Renewal of an only intellectual belief is not lasting & continued tolerance (by constant forgiving)of backsliding is shameful for the congregation.

Not a rejection in the least G, my man.

Here's a remedy for your ignorance on the OT Perseverance passages:
Job 17:9
Psalms 1:3
Psalms 23
Psalms 34:7
Psalms 48:14
Psalms 92:12
Psalms 125:1
Psalms 138:8
Ecclesiastes 3:14
Isaiah 46:4
Jeremiah 32:40
Ezekial 11:19-20
Now get out there & enjoy your eternal security!

 

[GLJCA]

What's with that is we don't reject the other. You simply have read too much into Hebrews. "Enlightened" is intellectual. It is NEVER used in any other way(to indicate regeneration).
Tasted the heavenly gift simply means to have heard the Gospel of Jesus, partakers doesn't necessarily mean indwelling(Matt7:22).
Renewal of an only intellectual belief is not lasting & continued tolerance (by constant forgiving)of backsliding is shameful for the congregation.

Here we go again. Here are the twists and turns to make it fit the OSAS belief.

Have you asked yourself the question why it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance if they never had it in the first place? What does renew mean?

Have you also asked yourself the question what they are falling away from?
If they never had salvation, how can they fall away from it?

It doesn't bother you to have to make such a feeble attempt at explaining away this passage?

So literally what you are saying is that once someone hears the gospel and intellectually considers it and partakes of the Holy Spirit(not necessarily indwelling) though I don't know what else it could be, it is impossible to bring them back to the point of repentance. So that means that once someone hears the gospel once, they are done for if they don't accept it the first time. Come on Rick that makes no sense and you know it.

"Again if you would have studied the 5 points of Calvinism you would not have had to ask that question. Yet you ask it because you have probably heard someone, or read someone's version of what Calvin taught."

>>>>>>>Oh, PLEASE! I deserve this condescension?

No condescension meant, but if you had done an indepth study of Calvinism you would not have asked the question concerning Perseverance of the Saints and merit. The two do not go together. Only people who haven't studied Calvinism but have heard and believed what others have said about it ask questions, or make accusations like that. You would have known that the belief has nothing to do with merit.

"Those two beliefs do not go together yet Baptist freely put them together in their doctrinal statment. Why?"

>>>>>You'll have to ask a Baptist, G.

Ok let me rephrase this point. The OSAS crowd says that man's heart is deceitful and desperately wicked yet at the same time they believe that lost man can choose whether he wants to believe the gospel or not. Those two beliefs don't go together yet the OSAS crowd freely believes both together. Please explain how someone whose heart is totally depraved can choose that which is spiritually good, when the Bible says that he can't?
1Cor 2: 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here's a remedy for your ignorance on the OT Perseverance passages:

And you accuse me of being condescending? Is the Calvinist the only one who can offend here? You called me a hypocrite earlier, my friend, but instead of pointing at others maybe you should look in the mirror. I am not ignorant of OT or NT passages that deal with perseverance or OSAS. I have studied both thoroughly.

GLJCA

 

[Rick Otto]

Don't dish out what you aren't willing to eat, ok?
Expect response in kind when you habitualy, if unintentionaly, are abusive.
Perfect example:
"Here we go again. Here are the twists and turns to make it fit the OSAS belief."

Or is it a case of Here we go again, defending scriptural doctrines of security against the twists & turns of OSAS disbelief?

Give the polemical comments (like "feeble attempts")a rest, & I will too. Otherwise quit cryin' 'bout havin' to eat what you dish.

A person can have a false faith with false repentance & false obedience. They can have a faith in their own mistaken idea of God & scripture, they can feel guilty out of a general morality & obey out of fear or false, mistaken gratitude. It is impossible to renew them to repentance for two reasons - they never had the real thing, & it is God who renews men to relationship w/Him, including repentance. Repentence is a gift of God, it doesn't originate in ourselves.

They don't fall away from salvation, they fall away from repentance - read it again, G.
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
Your grasp is feeble, not my explanation.

"So literally what you are saying is..."

>>>No G, I ain't even sayin' that figguratively, bro. You're right, I DO know that makes no sense.


"OSAS crowd says that man's heart is deceitful and desperately wicked yet at the same time they believe that lost man can choose whether he wants to believe the gospel or not."

>>Not the WHOLE OSAS crowd, G.
Maybe just the ones you've met (excepting me, of course ).

"Only people who haven't studied Calvinism but have heard and believed what others have said about it ask questions, or make accusations like that. You would have known that the belief has nothing to do with merit."

>>>I DO know that, & I BEILEVE it, and ALL my posts reflect that, if you read them w/an unjaundiced eye.You must've misunderstood either my question or it's intent.


"The OSAS crowd says that man's heart is deceitful and desperately wicked yet at the same time they believe that lost man can choose whether he wants to believe the gospel or not. Those two beliefs don't go together yet the OSAS crowd freely believes both together."

>>>This is a Hot News Flash for me, bro. I never heard of an OSAS believer being that doctrinaly cross-eyed.

"Please explain how someone whose heart is totally depraved can choose that which is spiritually good, when the Bible says that he can't?"
1Cor 2: 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
>>>>Please explain? Sorry I can't. I don't believe it is possible either! I am glad we are alike in this respect, G.

"And you accuse me of being condescending? Is the Calvinist the only one who can offend here? You called me a hypocrite earlier, my friend, but instead of pointing at others maybe you should look in the mirror. I am not ignorant of OT or NT passages that deal with perseverance or OSAS. I have studied both thoroughly"

Well, I hope it was more thorough than your reading of my posts!
Actualy G, I didn't CALL you a hypocrite, I said if you're advocating it, you're doing a good job. And the reason had at least a little to do with your casual, if unintentional, abusiveness. Witness:
"Gsays:
"Before you make a wrong answer you should at least read the passage".
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"
Otto replies:
GL, take your own advice. My post was on Rom.11:20
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
"They" is referring to to the Isrealites who were cast off for unbelief.
Yes, he was speaking TO Gentiles, but he was speaking ABOUT Isrealites.

Let's talk about "typical"...

You jump down Lightninboy's throat for tryin' to label ya, but you don't even bother readin' MY post right, before ya wanna label ME "typical", twisting, & misinterpeting.
If you are advocating hypocrasy, you're doin' a good job."


Here's another example of you at least seemingly, contradict yourself, & the reason I gave you the OT scripts on assurance:
"The problem with OSAS is that it takes it's belief from Matthew to Revelation and leaves out the Old Testament."(Post#12)
In contrast to:
" I am not ignorant of OT or NT passages that deal with perseverance or OSAS. I have studied both thoroughly."

>>>If that were true, you would then know that you're first statement is false. My conclusion is that you either have two heads that haven't met, or you are unaware of your own contradictions, hypocracy, & the abusiveness inflicted thereby.

 

[GLJCA]

I edited out the comment I made because it should not have been said. Sorry

GLJCA

 

[Rick Otto]

Now how 'bout rememberin' this:
"Before you make a wrong answer you should at least read the passage."

And...

"This is indicative of a normal OSAS response. The OSAS mindset is, "We must defend this belief even if we have to twist and misinterpret scripture to do it".

And...

"Here we go again. Here are the twists and turns to make it fit the OSAS belief."

And...

"Again if you would have studied the 5 points of Calvinism ..."

And...
"The last time I checked they are both God's Word yet you accept one and reject the other. What's with that?'

Now tell me what I'm supposed to think about that, G.

 

[GLJCA]

They don't fall away from salvation, they fall away from repentance - read it again, G.
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

The way I read the passage is that this person had repentance, which as you say is granted from God only. He had understanding or enlightenment which could only come from the light of the gospel shining on him. He was a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Could you explain to me how that someone could partake of the Holy Spirit yet not be indwelt by the Spirit? He tasted of the Word of God, which to me means that he devoured God's Word.

In my estimation this is a perfect picture of Esau, who experienced all of what God had to offer and turned away from the faith and when he sought repentance God would not grant it to him.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on this passage. I do enjoy discussing with you though because you at least do answer questions.

>>>I DO know that, & I BEILEVE it, and ALL my posts reflect that, if you read them w/an unjaundiced eye.You must've misunderstood either my question or it's intent.

I went back and read the sentence that started this discussion and I must apologize that I did read it wrong. Here is the sentence.
How do you deny or demote Preservation Of The Saints (the "P" in TULIP perjoratively named OSAS) without turning grace into merit?
I mistakenly thought you were saying that POTS turned merit into grace. I apologize for not reading it correctly.

>>>This is a Hot News Flash for me, bro. I never heard of an OSAS believer being that doctrinaly cross-eyed.

I talk to them all the time down here in the south.

Actualy G, I didn't CALL you a hypocrite, I said if you're advocating it, you're doing a good job. And the reason had at least a little to do with your casual, if unintentional, abusiveness. Witness:

You were making that judgement of me because you thought I jumped down Lightningboy's throat for no reason. We had been having this discussion for a while on private message and his language to me had been a lot worse than mine was to him by far. So if you take your philosphy that you can dish it out to others if they do it to you then I was justified in what I said to him. What wasn't justifed was your rebuttal because you didn't know what had been discussed. I had asked him questions and he never answered one, yet told me that I had my head up my ___, if I didn't see eternal security from reading the Bible. As you know, I do see eternal salvation in the scriptures yet at the same time I see warnings of falling away from the faith written by all of the writers of the New Testament. One can not accept one and reject the others.

Could you tell me what Rev 3:5 is saying?
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
When is someone's name written in the book of life and how can someone's name be blotted out?

GLJCA