Assurance of Salvation

[GLJCA]

Here is a quote from the website www.faithalone.org on assurance.

Assurance of everlasting life is certainty that one is eternally secure simply by faith in Jesus. Assurance of everlasting life is based only on the promise God makes in His Word that everyone who believes in Jesus Christ alone possesses everlasting life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:9-13). Good works, which can and should follow regeneration, are not necessary for a person to have assurance of everlasting life (Eph 2:10 ; Titus 3:8).

Assurance is of the essence of believing in Jesus for everlasting life. That is, as long as a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life, he knows he has everlasting life (John 5:24; 6:35, 47; 11:27; 1 John 5:9-13).

Assurance of salvation is based on the promise of salvation in God's Word but how can we know that we are not being deceived by the enemy, giving us a false sense of security? Also can one have a false sense of eternal security, just as the Jews did, who believed that they were secure as the covenant people of God since they had been circumcised?

I think John and Paul give us the answer.

1John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

4: 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Paul also shows us how to have assurance of salvation resistant to any deception from the enemy.

1Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Paul acknowledged that the Corinthians had received, believed , were standing on, and saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ, IF THEY KEEP IN MEMORY WHAT HE PREACHED TO THEM.

Here Paul says it again in another way.

Col 1: 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Here Paul says that the Colossians were reconciled to God through Christ’s death, to present them holy, unblameable and unreprovable in His sight, IF THEY CONTINUE IN THE FAITH GROUNDED AND SETTLED, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL.

Is Paul teaching that one can be reconciled to Christ and then because they did not continue in the faith that they could be DE-RECONCILED?

What did Paul mean when he told the Romans that they could be cut off of the olive tree if they didn't continue in His goodness?
Romans 11: 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Where does Once Saved Always Saved fit into these passages?

GLJCA

 

[Thomas35]

Here is a quote from the website www.faithalone.org on assurance.


Assurance of salvation is based on the promise of salvation in God's Word but how can we know that we are not being deceived by the enemy, giving us a false sense of security? Also can one have a false sense of eternal security, just as the Jews did, who believed that they were secure as the covenant people of God since they had been circumcised?

I think John and Paul give us the answer.

1John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

4: 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Paul also shows us how to have assurance of salvation resistant to any deception from the enemy.

1Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Paul acknowledged that the Corinthians had received, believed , were standing on, and saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ, IF THEY KEEP IN MEMORY WHAT HE PREACHED TO THEM.

Here Paul says it again in another way.

Col 1: 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Here Paul says that the Colossians were reconciled to God through Christ’s death, to present them holy, unblameable and unreprovable in His sight, IF THEY CONTINUE IN THE FAITH GROUNDED AND SETTLED, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL.

Is Paul teaching that one can be reconciled to Christ and then because they did not continue in the faith that they could be DE-RECONCILED?

What did Paul mean when he told the Romans that they could be cut off of the olive tree if they didn't continue in His goodness?
Romans 11: 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Where does Once Saved Always Saved fit into these passages?

GLJCA

It doesn't fit in those passages.
OSAS does not fit in the whole bible, it is taken from just the promises in the bible. OSAS stand on the promises alone.
When you study out salvation through the old and new teastament, you find Jesus is our salvation.
1 Peter 1:5 salvation is to come.
verse 4 tells us where salvation is right now.
Hebrews 9:28 tells us Jesus is bring salvation to us how are waiting for him.

We have verses in the bible that tell us we have eternal life and salvation now. We can have it now but only through faith in Jesus.
2000 years agao Jesus did all the work for us all we have to do is believe in Him and what he did. Belief in action is called faith. john 3:16 the word believe means you belive so strong you are willing to act on your belief. The action has nothing to do with salvation, the action reflects our faith.
All our effort has to be in build and holding on to our faith in Jesus. Luke 13:24 Jesus said for us to make every effort to enter through the narrow door.

One of the most dangerous doctrines is osas it lets peoples guard down. So many quit seek the Lord after they have accepted Jesus and followed Him through Baptism. After they wander away the osas people just say they never were saved. But that person thinks their on their way to heaven.
When you are truly in the faith its hard to wander after a person really gets ground but they can. 1 Tim is full people who shipwrecked their faith, wander from the faith and money cause people to wander from the faith.
1 Tim 5:8 lets some believer will worse off than unbelievers, thats scary.
I've read books on people who support osas and they have to explain away those verses and bring the word of God down just to protect that man made doctrine. It is so sad. I just lost my uncle who was baptized at a young age and he thought he was fine. He lived a rough life and made fun of me for spending so much to at church and read the bible.
OSAS is one of satan great tools.

God Bless You

 

[Rick Otto]

Romans 11:20 is talking about the unbelief of Jews, not Christians.
Colossians 1:23 is an exhortation to concern, not a statement of conditional dependancy.

Satan has lots of tools.
Isa 54:17 - No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

 

[lightninboy]

Romans 11:20 is talking about the unbelief of Jews, not Christians.
Colossians 1:23 is an exhortation to concern, not a statement of conditional dependancy.

Satan has lots of tools.
Isa 54:17 - No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Amen!

GLJCA, were you always a 4-point or 5-point Calvinist?

 

[Thomas35]

Romans 11:20 is talking about the unbelief of Jews, not Christians.
Colossians 1:23 is an exhortation to concern, not a statement of conditional dependancy.

Satan has lots of tools.
Isa 54:17 - No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

We have every promise in the bible as long as we hold on to our faith in Jesus.
Tim 1:19, 4:1, 6:10
Paul warns us about satan. A lot of people just read the promise part of the bible. That is what satan wants us to do.
2 Corinthians 2:8-11

God finished the work for all of us on the cross. He said here it is all you need to do is have faith that I am the Great I AM.
Faith comes from Romans 10:17.

When a person excepts Jesus we get in the boat on faith. We are still in this world a pool of sin, satan is the prince of this world. We are not to the shore yet we must hold on to our faith in Jesus until death or his return. Hebrews 9:28.
A lot of people don't read the warning to Christians.

James 5:19&20 talks about a brother & in the greek this word brother means: a follower, believer in Jesus.

2 Peter 3:17 warns us to be on our guard of lawless men, so we don't fall from our SECURE POSITION!

God Bless

 

[Van]

Hi GLJCA, lets see if we can put all these passages into perspective? Paul tells us to test ourselves to see if we are of the faith. This means we might believe we are of the faith, but not be of the faith. So our security is uncertain. Not uncertain because we might not endure to the end, but uncertain as to whether we have been born again. So the doctrine is Once Actually Saved, Its Settled (OASIS).

The promise is to everyone who believes, but who makes the judgement as to whether a person's belief is sufficient for God's purpose, after all, demons believe. So it God who credits our faith as righteousness, believing does not automatically save us. This fits with Matthew 7 where folks claimed to have believed, they cast out demons in Christ's name, yet they were never born again, never spiritually placed in Christ, and never indwelt, for Christ said I never knew you. "Knew you" refers to being "in Christ" and the Spirit of Christ being "in us," thus referring to an intimate relationship.

Now if we look at John 5:24, we do not see the idea that as long as you believe, but rather the person who believes has already passed out of death into life. So we have two possibilities, either when we are actually born again, our faith is protected such that we will endure (1 Peter 1:3-5) or we can undo our born again status. Since we were born by the will of God, and He is Almighty, it is difficult to see how we pluck ourselves out of his hand. Soteriology has two views of this situation, when we are spiritually placed in Christ it is like being placed in a cell with the door locked by God, hence kept by the power of God, and the view that we are not really kept, God puts us in a cell with the door open such that we can wander out of our own volition. Thus we must stay in the cell by our own willpower, and if we fail, we lose our salvation. This idea undercuts the meaning of "kept."

So the biblical position is uncertain security, at any point in time if we test ourselves - do we love Jesus more than anything - and our heart does not convict us, we have that blessed assurance that not only are we born again, but that our heartfelt faith is protected, ensuring we will endure to the end. This gives us the confidence to put our neck out, to live boldly for Christ, whereas if you think you might no get the inheritance, you might not have the confidence to take risks.

If we do not love our brother, what does that say, Christ died for our brother. It says we do not love Christ, we are not fully committed to Christ, and we are not willing to forego perceived injustice and meekly sacrifice ourselves for those who need God's love in their life. Hence the attitude shows that our faith is mere lipservice and we face Matthew 7.

If a person is born again, with their faith protected, they will hold fast to the word they received, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2. But if God did not credit the person's faith as righteousness, they have believed in vain, they have not been saved, and therefore they do not stand in God's saving grace.

So when we look at folks under the threat of being cut off if they do not continue, we have two possibilities, they are saved, with their faith protected, and thus will continue or if they do not continue, their faith is not protected, and therefore they were never actually saved. So they are cut of from the threshold of salvation, they have been enlightened by receiving the gospel, but they have either not fully committed to Christ (i.e. their faith is rootless, Matthew 13:20-21) or their faith is half-hearted, they still treasure the things of this world (possessions or relationships) such that the worries of this world or the deceiptfulness of weath will choke (prevent) their faith from being credited as righteousness.

So this passage is an exhortation to go all in, to fully commit to Christ and to treasure Him more than anything. Whoever believes in his heart...

 

[Thomas35]

It really boils down to this we must stand firm in the faith to the very end to be saved.
1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, IF YOU HOLD FIRM to the word I preached to. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END the confidence we had at first.

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let US HOLD FIRMLY TO THE FAITH WE PROFESS.

Hebrews 5:8 & 9 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

We have to wait and see if we are obedient until the end.
The obedience does not save us but proves our faith to us and others. We are to check ourselves before the Lords Supper to check our faith, by the way we live.
The bible says to warn a person if their idle.
Our actions just reflect where are faith is at that point of our life.

Is this what you where say in your post.

 

[Van]

Hi Thomas35, no that is not at all what I said. Look at the very verse you cited, Hebrews 3:14. For we have become partakers with Christ if we hold fast till the end. So if we do not hold fast, we were never partakers. So Once Actually Saved, Its Settled is taught by Hebrews 3:14. If scripture taught that we must hold fast in order to be saved, it would say we will become partakers with Christ if we hold fast till the end.

Holding fast is evidence that we have been born again, works only proves salvation it does not provide salvation.

If a person is born again, with their faith protected, they will hold fast to the word they received, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2. But if God did not credit the person's faith as righteousness, they have believed in vain, they have not been saved, and therefore they do not stand in God's saving grace.

 

[Thomas35]

Hi Thomas35, no that is not at all what I said. Look at the very verse you cited, Hebrews 3:14. For we have become partakers with Christ if we hold fast till the end. So if we do not hold fast, we were never partakers. So Once Actually Saved, Its Settled is taught by Hebrews 3:14. If scripture taught that we must hold fast in order to be saved, it would say we will become partakers with Christ if we hold fast till the end.

Holding fast is evidence that we have been born again, works only proves salvation it does not provide salvation.

If a person is born again, with their faith protected, they will hold fast to the word they received, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2. But if God did not credit the person's faith as righteousness, they have believed in vain, they have not been saved, and therefore they do not stand in God's saving grace.

How do we know if we have faith that will be protected?

 

[Van]

Hi Thomas, first, we do not "know" but rather we have "faith" that our faith is protected based on trusting in the promise of God (1 Peter 1:3-5) if our heart does not convict us. Do you love Jesus more than anything, have you gone "all in" to use the "Texas Hold-em" card game illustration. We are to love God with all our heart, with all our mind and with all our understanding.

Questions: 1) What was your motivation to putting your trust in Christ. Were you looking to improve your life situation, did you think it would be good for you or your family? The gospel is that all who proclaim Christ's name will be persecuted. Did you really commit to your Lord and your God? Did you say, take my life and use it? Is your heart convicting you right now?

This test of faith is not, do you never sin, or fail to follow Christ's example. But rather, do you want to follow Christ, do you pray each day that you might serve Christ effectively, both by being an example of Christ and being a witness for Christ. Is this a burden, or is His yoke light? And if it is, then take the bread and the drink and rejoice in the blessed assurance that Jesus is yours, oh what a foretaste of glory divine. You are an heir of salvation, the purchase of God. And you will endure, for you are indwelt forever. May God richly bless you. Amen

 

[GLJCA]

Romans 11:20 is talking about the unbelief of Jews, not Christians.
Colossians 1:23 is an exhortation to concern, not a statement of conditional dependancy.

Satan has lots of tools.
Isa 54:17 - No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Before you make a wrong answer you should at least read the passage.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

The letter of Romans was written to the Church of Jesus Christ in Rome. The admonition of Romans 11 was to the Gentile Christians that had been grafted into the olive tree after the unbelieving branches were cut out.

This is indicative of a normal OSAS response. The OSAS mindset is, "We must defend this belief even if we have to twist and misinterpret scripture to do it".

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Amen!

GLJCA, were you always a 4-point or 5-point Calvinist?

Why don't you address the questions that I asked instead of trying to label me, Lightningboy?

What is your motive, my friend?

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Very good response Van. You obviously have studied this subject thoroughly. I have some observations that I would like to point out in your post, if I may.

Now if we look at John 5:24, we do not see the idea that as long as you believe, but rather the person who believes has already passed out of death into life. So we have two possibilities, either when we are actually born again, our faith is protected such that we will endure (1 Peter 1:3-5) or we can undo our born again status. Since we were born by the will of God, and He is Almighty, it is difficult to see how we pluck ourselves out of his hand. Soteriology has two views of this situation, when we are spiritually placed in Christ it is like being placed in a cell with the door locked by God, hence kept by the power of God, and the view that we are not really kept, God puts us in a cell with the door open such that we can wander out of our own volition. Thus we must stay in the cell by our own willpower, and if we fail, we lose our salvation. This idea undercuts the meaning of "kept."

You know, if we take Prayer for instance and use only one scripture to define it, we will come up with this.
Mt 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Thus many people are deceived into believing that prayer is just a time when I come before God because I want something, and anything I ask for, God has to give it to me because he promised. Yet prayer cannot be defined by one verse, as we see from 1John 5:14. Consequently one can not use the one verse of, John 5:24, to define what happens at salvation. One has to take all of the verses concerning salvation to define it. When we define salvation using one verse we struggle with verses like this.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
A person's name has to be in the Book of Life to be blotted out. The only way a person's name can be in the Book of Life is for that person to be in Christ. He has to be one of the Covenant people of Christ. Yet his name can be blotted out. For this persons name to be in the book of life he had to have believed. For his name to be blotted out, he had to have rejected the faith. How does your Once Actually Saved, Its Settled work for this verse and the next one coming up?

This fits with Matthew 7 where folks claimed to have believed, they cast out demons in Christ's name, yet they were never born again, never spiritually placed in Christ, and never indwelt, for Christ said I never knew you. "Knew you" refers to being "in Christ" and the Spirit of Christ being "in us," thus referring to an intimate relationship.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Here is the scenario that you presented in your post concerning what it takes to endure to the end, yet this person fell away. This verse spells out intimacy. He fell away even though he was enlightened(understood the gospel), tasted of the heavenly gift( I believe is a reference to the body of Christ in Communion), he partook of the Holy Spirit( he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit), he studied and ate the Word of God, yet he fell away from the faith.

Soteriology has more than two views on this subject. What happens is these two views you presented often do scripture battle where one side gives their pat scriptures while the other give their verses that contradict the scriptures from the other group. This is unacceptable for Christians to do. Scripture battle teaches that the Bible contradicts itself and produces doubt of the inspiration of God. How can God have inspired a book that contradicts itself? He could not have, and yet we teach that, by our misinterpretation of His Holy and Perfect Word. We must view the Bible as a seamless garment that flows for cover to cover.

The problem with OSAS is that it takes it's belief from Matthew to Revelation and leaves out the Old Testament. Therefore the understanding of God's Covenant has been left out. Our God is a covenant keeping God and if we are His convenant people then that has implications. What are those implications?

Oh by the way I do like the Texas Hold-em analogy. In fact I have a neighborhood tournament at my house tonight.

GLJCA

 

[Van]

Thanks GLACA for the kind words. It is certainly true we cannot build a case on one verse, but on all the passages that impinge on the doctrine being considered.

Lets consider Revelation 3:5, here Jesus promises to not blot out names in the Lamb's book of like. Thus Once Actually Saved, with our name entered in the Lamb's book of life, Its Settled. What does it mean to "overcometh?" It means to be born again. Thus what you may be reading as a requirement to live for Christ until you die to overcome the world, actually means once you have been spiritually born again, you have past tense, overcome the world.

When scripture says I will not blot your name out, it does not teach I may blot out other names. This is reversing the teaching of the text. So once a name is entered, and you are correct, I believe a person's name is enrolled in heaven when they join the "church" the general assemby, and become a part of the body of Christ, Jesus promises to never remove the name.

No, Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to folks like the folks in Matthew 13:20-22, that heard the gospel and received the gospel, hence "enlightened" and have tasted the good word of God, but their "faith" was rootless or half-hearted, and therefore, when difficulties arose, they fell away. They were never actually saved. Note their condition (enlighted but not saved) is contrasted with those who were saved, verse 9 and following.

Please note that my position is the Bible does not contradict itself, and my position therefore is consistent will all scripture and does not ignore any passage concerning the subject.

Yes, OASIS, does leave out the Old Testament, for the Old Covenant was one where a person could lose their relationship with God. But the New Covenant is a OASIS dispensation. I believe Hebrews 11 teaches that God incorporated those who obtained approval under the Old Covenant in the New Covenant. It all fits.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Before you make a wrong answer you should at least read the passage.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

GL, take your own advice. My post was on Rom.11:20
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
"They" is referring to to the Isrealites who were cast off for unbelief.
Yes, he was speaking TO Gentiles, but he was speaking ABOUT Isrealites.

Let's talk about "typical"...

You jump down Lightninboy's throat for tryin' to label ya, but you don't even bother readin' MY post right, before ya wanna label ME "typical", twisting, & misinterpeting.

If you are advocating hypocrasy, you're doin' a good job.

 

[Thomas35]

Hi Thomas, first, we do not "know" but rather we have "faith" that our faith is protected based on trusting in the promise of God (1 Peter 1:3-5) if our heart does not convict us. Do you love Jesus more than anything, have you gone "all in" to use the "Texas Hold-em" card game illustration. We are to love God with all our heart, with all our mind and with all our understanding.

Questions: 1) What was your motivation to putting your trust in Christ. Were you looking to improve your life situation, did you think it would be good for you or your family? The gospel is that all who proclaim Christ's name will be persecuted. Did you really commit to your Lord and your God? Did you say, take my life and use it? Is your heart convicting you right now?

This test of faith is not, do you never sin, or fail to follow Christ's example. But rather, do you want to follow Christ, do you pray each day that you might serve Christ effectively, both by being an example of Christ and being a witness for Christ. Is this a burden, or is His yoke light? And if it is, then take the bread and the drink and rejoice in the blessed assurance that Jesus is yours, oh what a foretaste of glory divine. You are an heir of salvation, the purchase of God. And you will endure, for you are indwelt forever. May God richly bless you. Amen

Van thanks for the word. I come out of a church that teaches osas and I wanted it to be true but I don't see the bible supporting it.
I really don't know if you support the osas doctrine.

When a person truly puts their faith in Jesus and His work on the Cross and start building their faith through the Word of God, I think its hard to fall away, but scripture says they will all through 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1, 6:10.

Everybody has faith in something. Some in them selves, some in money, some in worldly possessions and so on. God has given each one of us faith.

Jesus has finished everything for all of us on the Cross. All we need is to have our faith in Him and Him alone.
Luke 12:35-46 tells of one that served his master his whole life but at the end he got tired of waiting for his master to return. Verse 46 tells he will cut to pieces and assign with unbelievers.

In John 10:28-29 tells us that nobody can snatch us out of the Fathers hand. That word snatch in the greek means: cannot be taken quickly or forced out. Satan knows this and he will try to draw us out slowly. He will use this world, people, money, even the Word of God to draw us out and most people won't even know it.

When we sin we don't lose of faith in Jesus but it can give satan a foot hold. It may take a person many years to wander from their faith in Jesus, its not a over night thing. God will hold us thats what grace is all about. We just have to keep the faith just like Paul said he did. 2 Tim 4:7

Jesus did it all for us to have eternal life, salvation. All we need is to hold on to our faith in Him. Jesus said to strive to enter through the narrow door. Luke 13:24

As long as we have that true daily relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit we will be fine. Thats our part of this Jesus did His.

God bless.

 

[GLJCA]

"Before you make a wrong answer you should at least read the passage.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

GL, take your own advice. My post was on Rom.11:20
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
"They" is referring to to the Isrealites who were cast off for unbelief.
Yes, he was speaking TO Gentiles, but he was speaking ABOUT Isrealites.

Let's talk about "typical"...

You jump down Lightninboy's throat for tryin' to label ya, but you don't even bother readin' MY post right, before ya wanna label ME "typical", twisting, & misinterpeting.

If you are advocating hypocrasy, you're doin' a good job.

Romans 11:20 is talking about the unbelief of Jews, not Christians.

My apologies, I should not have jumped, but let me see if I understand what you were getting at. Correct me if I am wrong, ok? You were trying to say that Paul was talking about the unbelief of the Jews and was not applying what he was saying to Gentiles.

You were right that Romans 11:20 is talking about the unbelief of Jews yet Paul was warning the Gentiles that they could be cut out of the olive tree if they are found in unbelief also. We can not just take 11:20 out of context and say that Paul wasn't giving the same admonition to the Gentiles, as verse 22 plainly says that the Gentiles can be cut out also.

The reason I said what I did to lightningboy was because we have been discussing this issue by Private Message and I fully disclosed what I believed in those Private Messages. To ask me in this thread, what I have already discussed in the private message, makes me question his motives. By putting a Calvinist label on someone makes Calvinism the issue instead of the subject being discussed. I have found that when OSASers can't answer the questions they in turn attack the questioner. I may be wrong about his motives, but they were questionable.

This thread is discussing the Assurance of Salvation and the false teaching of OSAS or if you will, OSAIS. I do not think that these beliefs are true to scripture. I believe that they only present one side of what scripture teaches and ignores the other side. If we are to be true to the Word of God we must address both sides. If we can't, with our present belief, then we need to change our belief, not pervert God's Word.

I personally do believe that a person who is ordained to eternal life will endure or persevere to the end because it is God that perserves him. Yet I also believe that someone can believe and be baptized into the covenant body of Christ and be cut out or fall away from the faith, and that is why we have the warnings and admonitions by almost all the writers of the New Testament. These two sides of the issue can not be reconciled with the OSAS belief yet the Bible speaks of both happening, which can do nothing but speak to the limitations of OSAS. It has deceived many many people with a false sense of security, just like the OT Jews had concerning their place in the Covenant people of God.

The New Testament gives the same types of warnings that the Old Testament prophets gave to the Children of Israel. They did not heed the warnings because of their false security and they fell away from God in unbelief and committed spiritual fornication. OSAS gives people who are not walking with God a false sense that because they made a profession of faith that have gotten a free get out of jail card. It ain't like that.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Van thanks for the word. I come out of a church that teaches osas and I wanted it to be true but I don't see the bible supporting it.
I really don't know if you support the osas doctrine.

When a person truly puts their faith in Jesus and His work on the Cross and start building their faith through the Word of God, I think its hard to fall away, but scripture says they will all through 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1, 6:10.

Everybody has faith in something. Some in them selves, some in money, some in worldly possessions and so on. God has given each one of us faith.

Jesus has finished everything for all of us on the Cross. All we need is to have our faith in Him and Him alone.
Luke 12:35-46 tells of one that served his master his whole life but at the end he got tired of waiting for his master to return. Verse 46 tells he will cut to pieces and assign with unbelievers.

In John 10:28-29 tells us that nobody can snatch us out of the Fathers hand. That word snatch in the greek means: cannot be taken quickly or forced out. Satan knows this and he will try to draw us out slowly. He will use this world, people, money, even the Word of God to draw us out and most people won't even know it.

When we sin we don't lose of faith in Jesus but it can give satan a foot hold. It may take a person many years to wander from their faith in Jesus, its not a over night thing. God will hold us thats what grace is all about. We just have to keep the faith just like Paul said he did. 2 Tim 4:7

Jesus did it all for us to have eternal life, salvation. All we need is to hold on to our faith in Him. Jesus said to strive to enter through the narrow door. Luke 13:24

As long as we have that true daily relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit we will be fine. Thats our part of this Jesus did His.

God bless.

As long as we have that true daily relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit we will be fine. Thats our part of this Jesus did His.

I may be misunderstanding what you just said but if I understood right then, I must disagree with it. We do not have a part in our salvation. Our good works are not designed for us to gain any merit from God. Our good works show us that we are in Christ and give us assurance. They do not produce a favor from God that will result in our salvation. Jesus Christ did it all. I could do nothing before God quickened me and I can do nothing after He saved me that would be of any merit at all.

My heart was deceitful and desperately wicked. My will was in bondage to my sinful nature. It was free to choose but I could only choose that which my sinful nature allowed. I could not understand anything spiritual(Rom 3:10) I did not seek for God(Rom 3:10). I was dead spiritually. A dead man can not choose life. Jesus did not give Lazarus a choice. He gave him life when he rasied him from the dead. God quickened my dead spirit before I could believe, not after I believed(Eph 2:5). He gave me the faith to believe and granted me repentance from sin.(Rom 12:3,2Tim 2:25)

Good Works are designed by God to help me to know that I am in Him and give me assurance. God doesn't need my good works, yet He ordained that I walk in them.(Eph 2:10)

What good works will do though is show that someone isn't in Christ. If good works are absent then 9 times out of 10 Christ is absent.

If I have misrepresented what you said then I apologize.

GLJCA

 

[Van]

but scripture says they will all through 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1, 6:10.

Lets go over these verses, Thomas35 and see what they seem to say. In 1 Timothy 1:19 scripture says some make shipwreck of their faith. What does this mean, that their faith was protected or unprotected? Unprotected. So these rejected the gospel, and were never saved. The were enlightened, and early on looked externally like a Christian, but they were never born again. Handed over to Satan means excluded from fellowship within the church - outside the church belongs to Satan - so Paul is treating them as unbelievers.

1 Timothy 4:1 takes about some "falling away from the faith" which refers to adherance to sound doctrine, they are led astray by false teachings. So while our faith - our devotion to Christ - is protected, our walk is not protected, thus we can be led astray into ineffective ministry, still getting into heaven but bringing no rewards like someone escaping from a fire.

1 Timothy 6:10 simply restates Christ's teaching in Matthew 13:22. Folks who were enlightened, but still treasured the things of this world and therefore their faith was not reckoned as righteousness and they were never born again. Do not confuse exhortions to engage in a productive life "in Christ" after being born again with the threat of loss of the benefits of salvation, by not sticking to sound doctrine, with loss of salvation.

Lets consider Luke 12:35, is the slave a believer or does he get assigned a place among the unbelievers? Unbelievers. He was a phony, like a weed growing among the wheat, that looks like a wheat, but at the end of the day, the fruit is worthless. I do not see in the text where the slave served the master for his whole life, but simply did not serve in well while the master was briefly absent. The slave lacks a heart-felt commitment to serve His master. Simply put, when we are enlightened by receiving the gospel, we either fully commit to it and God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually "in Christ" or we do not fully commit to Christ, and God does not credit our faith as righteousness and does not spiritually place us in Christ. Everyone who is entrusted with much, much will be required, and if they trample on the word of God, they will be cut to pieces.

Lets consider John 10:28-29, and the meaning of snatch. They will never perish, means they will never perish. So if Satan induces them to wander out of God's hand, they will perish. So that idea does not seem to fit with what John is saying. The idea, rather is God almighty keeps us such that we will never Perish.

Lets consider snatch or pluck, or to pull away. Yes the idea presented is no one can take with power something out of God's hand because God is more powerful than anyone or anything else. But this does not leave open the door for deception, that is simply snatching someone away by guile rather than overt force.

Yes our job in Christ is to fight the good fight, to be faithful to Christ, to serve Him, but that truth does not conflict with being kept by God for our inheritance such that we will never perish. Paul piled up rewards, and we should strive to pile up eternal incorruptable rewards - helping plant, water and till the soil, such that we hasten the day of Christ's return.

We not only need to find the narrow path that leads to life, we need to stay on the path, following Jesus, all the way home. We need to stick to the pure gospel and not get sidetracked into ineffective ministry. And we need to test ourselves to see if we are of the faith, as we look foreward to Christ saying "Welcome home, faithful servant. "

 

[lightninboy]

GLJCA,

You said you believed in OSAS for 40 years.

So the Baptist church you went to wasn't Calvinistic?