Aspects of Salvation

[archierieus]

On another thread, there was some discussion about salvation. The thread itself pertained to a different topic, so thought it might be good to get a fresh start. On that other thread, various beliefs were presented about the nature of salvation. I would like to share some thoughts here and see what others may think.

I believe that salvation has several aspects:

1) Juridical: this we call 'justification' which, as used in Roman. 3 etc., has the general meaning of 'acquitted.'

2) Adoption: When a person accepts Christ, s/he is adopted into the family of God.

3) Book of Life: One who accepts Jesus has his or her name written in "the Lamb's Book of Life."

4) Substitutionary: Christ's perfect life is credited to the believer.

5) Expiatory: Christ's death on the cross paid the price for all sins.

How do these ideas intersect with the question of 'assurance of salvation"?

I propose, first, that one does not fall in and out of grace. Once a person is in the state of grace, s/he is in the state of grace. I do not believe one loses one's salvation one day, gets it back the next day, then loses it again. What effect does sin have on one's status?

As mentioned above, I understand from Paul's writings and elsewhere in Scripture that when a person accepts Christ, s/he is adopted into the family of God. When you are adopted, you are adopted. An adopted child doesn't get kicked out of the family for messing up. He is dealt with as a son, corrected, still loved, still part of the family. Is it any different with God's family?

Again, once a person's name is written in the Book of Life, surely it isn't erased when a person sins, then written again upon repentance, then erased again for a sin, then rewritten, on and on. Once it is written there, it is written.

Still again, since Christ's perfect life stands in place of the sinner's life of failure, then the believer is judged and accepted on the basis of Christ's life, not his or her own. Hence, we are 'justified' on the basis of Christ's life, standing in our place.

For a believer in Jesus, his or her salvation is based upon Christ--Christ all the way. Not Christ plus his efforts, but on Christ.

I also believe that we retain the freedom to opt out of the relationship. That doesn't happen overnight, but it can happen. God works with us, pleads with us to stay with Him or to return to Him. But the choice is ours. But so long as we choose to stay in the saving relationship with Jesus, 'in Christ,' we are covered by His perfect righteousness, and we are being purified by God's daily work in our hearts.

Well, those are some thoughts and concepts. I would be interested to know what others think.

Dave

 

[spiritman]

I also believe that we retain the freedom to opt out of the relationship. That doesn't happen overnight, but it can happen. God works with us, pleads with us to stay with Him or to return to Him. But the choice is ours. But so long as we choose to stay in the saving relationship with Jesus, 'in Christ,' we are covered by His perfect righteousness, and we are being purified by God's daily work in our hearts.

Well, those are some thoughts and concepts. I would be interested to know what others think.

Dave

Any consequences for opting out?

 

[sunlover1]

As mentioned above, I understand from Paul's writings and elsewhere in Scripture that when a person accepts Christ, s/he is adopted into the family of God. When you are adopted, you are adopted. An adopted child doesn't get kicked out of the family for messing up. He is dealt with as a son, corrected, still loved, still part of the family. Is it any different with God's family?

I've heard it said that an adopted child in some cases (locality?)
has more rights than the biological child, and cannot be disinherited.

But anyhow, cool thread.

And what CAN seperate me from the love of God?
Nothing!


sunlover

 

[Photini]

Hmm...I didn't see any mention of an ontological view of salvation.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I propose, first, that one does not fall in and out of grace. Once a person is in the state of grace, s/he is in the state of grace. I do not believe one loses one's salvation one day, gets it back the next day, then loses it again. What effect does sin have on one's status?

All unbelievers have the enmity or wrath of God upon them. That is, in God's sight, unbelievers are seen as God's enemies. When a person becomes a believer, then their sins are forgiven, they are justified, and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them. Their status changes from enemy of God to being a friend of God. As you have said, they are adopted into God's family.

To unbelievers, God is a righteous Judge where in the courtroom, only penalty is meted out. To believers, God acts is a Father who loves and blesses His sons and daughters. Blessing includes discipline (see Hebrews 12:5-11). When a believer sins, God disciplines them as a father would discipline his children, not as a righteous Judge in the courtroom.

As mentioned above, I understand from Paul's writings and elsewhere in Scripture that when a person accepts Christ, s/he is adopted into the family of God. When you are adopted, you are adopted. An adopted child doesn't get kicked out of the family for messing up. He is dealt with as a son, corrected, still loved, still part of the family. Is it any different with God's family?

Its the same.

Again, once a person's name is written in the Book of Life, surely it isn't erased when a person sins, then written again upon repentance, then erased again for a sin, then rewritten, on and on. Once it is written there, it is written.

Yes that is correct. The Book of Life is not that willy-nilly.

Some verses though suggest that names might be blotted out:

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Still again, since Christ's perfect life stands in place of the sinner's life of failure, then the believer is judged and accepted on the basis of Christ's life, not his or her own. Hence, we are 'justified' on the basis of Christ's life, standing in our place.

Yes, this is referred to as imputation - the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

For a believer in Jesus, his or her salvation is based upon Christ--Christ all the way. Not Christ plus his efforts, but on Christ.

Our position - in light of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us - is that of a "saint." Despite all the problems that were happening at the church of Corinth, Paul still called them saints.


LDG

 

[archierieus]

Any consequences for opting out?

Can we disown the relationship? I believe we have the freedom to do so. I do not think God gives up on us. Even if we are unfaithful, He is faithful and keeps on trying to win us back. Yet, repeated, persistent pushing away of the Spirit of God can, I believe, result in the unpardonable sin. Why unpardonable? Because the person has become so immune to the appeals of the Spirit that he or she no longer feels a need. It is unpardonable because the conscience has become seared and no longer SEEKS pardon. I believe that is heartbreaking to God. I believe God weeps over people who have finally, irrevocably pushed Him away. It is not His choice, it is their choice. But He honors their choice.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

Hmm...I didn't see any mention of an ontological view of salvation.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. I must confess to not being familiar enough with the Orthodox view. But it is a very, very interesting concept. Would you care to explain it? I do recognize that it contrasts wtih the Western judicial, 'crime and punishment' view.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

I guess what prompted me to start this thread was some ideas I saw posted. One that concerned me was the belief that if we sin, we immediately lose our salvation--the moment we sin, and then we have to regain it. That doesn't seem to jive with the concept of the adoption, or of being joined to Christ and Christ's perfect life covering us. Seems instead like a real yo-yo existence spiritually.

The other idea which got me seriously stirred up, had to do with salvation being dependent upon our good works. Following that thinking, yes, we are justified by Christ's death on the cross, but our good works are added in, and give us standing with God somehow. I believe that as Christians, we will want to do what is right, and that God strenghtens and helps us do what is right, but even if we do everything right, it does not give us merit in the sight of God. "All our righteousness is as filthy rags." (Isa. 59:2) Thus the contrast between relying TOTALLY ON GOD for salvation and relying on GOD PLUS MAN for salvation.

Dave

 

[spiritman]

Can we disown the relationship? I believe we have the freedom to do so. I do not think God gives up on us. Even if we are unfaithful, He is faithful and keeps on trying to win us back. Yet, repeated, persistent pushing away of the Spirit of God can, I believe, result in the unpardonable sin. Why unpardonable? Because the person has become so immune to the appeals of the Spirit that he or she no longer feels a need. It is unpardonable because the conscience has become seared and no longer SEEKS pardon. I believe that is heartbreaking to God. I believe God weeps over people who have finally, irrevocably pushed Him away. It is not His choice, it is their choice. But He honors their choice.

Dave

I think you explained it well but you still haven't stated the consequences for that sin.

 

[Photini]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. I must confess to not being familiar enough with the Orthodox view. But it is a very, very interesting concept. Would you care to explain it? I do recognize that it contrasts wtih the Western judicial, 'crime and punishment' view.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for prompting me back here. I am about to turn in for the night shortly, so I will do the best I can to try and expand on it a little tomorrow.

But FWIW, the juridical sense of salvation is not totally absent in Orthodoxy, but it is definitely not emphasised as hard as in the Western confessions. There is a distinct shift in paradigm between the East and West.

In IC XC,
Photini (Heather)

 

[Photini]

I always have a difficult time, when approaching the subject of salvation, as to where I should make the first slice. That is, where I should start. Should I start with the creation of Adam and Eve and their fall? Or should it begin with our understanding of God? Should it be with the Cross? Or with the Incarnation? In the life of our Church, we have Feasts to celebrate events in Christ’s life and are taught how each pertains to our salvation. We travel with Him from the Annunciation, Nativity, Theophany, Transfiguration, and all the way to His Crucifixion. We witness and bask in the light of His Resurrection. Admittedly, the Resurrection service is my favorite, if I have one.

It’s easy to get overwhelmed.

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…” (Gen 1:26).

The Eastern Fathers perceive a distinction between image and likeness. There are some varying definitions on the specifics of this, but it basically boils down to this: the image being an ontological reality and the likeness being an ethical one (involving the free will). Bishop KALLISTOS (Ware) describes it thus:

“Humans at their first creation were therefore perfect, not so much in an actual as in a potential sense. Endowed with the image from the start, they were called to acquire the likeness by their own efforts (assisted of course by the grace of God). Adam began in a state of innocence and simplicity. ‘He was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected,’ wrote Irenaeus. ‘It was necessary that he should grow and so come to his perfection.’ God set Adam on the right path, but Adam had in front of him a long road to traverse in order to reach his final goal” (Ware, The Orthodox Church, p. 220).

As we know, Adam faltered from the path set before him. This is where some differences between East and West really begin to show. In Orthodoxy, original sin is not something imputed to every person born into the world. Rather, according to the Eastern Fathers, mortality and fear of death drive the impulse to sin. The ancestral sin is perceived as not only the inheritance of death, but also of corruption. A spiritual disease. A disease which brought about enslavement to the devil, fear of death and the inability to transform the image of God within ourselves into the likeness of the Object of our love.

Therefore, we do not understand salvation as only forgiveness of sins, or merely a justification. Instead we see both an objective and subjective salvation. In the objective sense, Nicholas Cabasilas, a 14th century theologian explains:

“The Lord allowed men, separated from God by the triple barrier of nature, sin and death, to be fully possessed of Him and to be directly united to Him by the fact he has set aside each barrier in turn: that of nature by His Incarnation, of sin by His death, and of death by His Resurrection.”

This accomplishment allowed for us to once again be able to grow in the likeness of God, through the work of the Holy Spirit and by bending our free will in cooperation. Here is where you truly see the Eastern emphasis on salvation as transfiguration, or theosis. What the Fathers mean by theosis, is that men, by participating in the very uncreated energies (actions) of God, commune actually with Him and so His attributes in time become theirs. As St Peter writes, “ye might be partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter
1:4).

So by participating in the whole life of the Church: her prayers, her teachings, her sacraments, her works of love in the world, her saints – the believer actually participates in the divine life of God Himself.

So to sum it up, because I somehow feel I am being as clear as mud:

• Man is made in the image of God, and because of this, has the ontological freedom of will. The likeness, however, is an ethical condition to be achieved through human effort (with help by the grace of God).
• Man’s disobedience to God brought death, sin and corrupt nature into the world.
• Jesus Christ, by uniting His divine nature to a human nature, by destroying sin on the cross, and by destroying death by His resurrection, provides the way of man to come back into communion with the Holy Trinity.
• The Holy Spirit applies the grace of God, that is the deifying energies of God, God Himself, to the soul and body of every cooperating person.
• This process of theosis, takes place through the sacramental life of the church.
• Good works, not in any way meritorious, are rather the means by which purity is preserved and strengthened in our life, if they are done in faith.
• This purity of heart is the necessary condition for our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Make any sense? I’ve tried to be careful not to misrepresent anything here. And looking back, the aspect of "adoption" that you listed may very well be close to this.

 

[archierieus]

What an excellent presentation! Thank-you, Photini. It was enlightening to me. Much to process and 'digest,' and that is good. I think you're right about the concept of 'adoption.' And that is a wonderful truth! I would like to study and learn more about what you have shared. Thanks again!

Dave

 

[MrPolo]

I think you explained it well but you still haven't stated the consequences for that sin.

I too am curious as to the OP's understanding of what damage the sins of a believer causes.

 

[archierieus]

I too am curious as to the OP's understanding of what damage the sins of a believer causes.

"The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) I see Paul pointing out in this verse that we have two alternatives. If we continue, persist in sin, the result will be death. If we turn from sin and follow Jesus (repentance, metanoia) the gift of God is eternal life. If we cling to sin and are unwilling to give it up, we will get our wages. If we renounce sin and cling to Jesus, we don't get eternal life as wages, but as a gift.

I believe we are given this life in which to make a choice. We accept Jesus at some point in time, and in doing so, we are covered by the blood of Jesus, His perfect life is credited to us, we are adopted into the family of God. God will work in us 'to will and do His good pleasure.'

But if, while still covered by Christ's perfect righteousness, we persist in a course of sin, in the end, we will make our decision, we push God away, we renounce the adoption. In the end, I believe God will honor our decision--though He will keep on trying as long as there is a chance for a change of heart.

We cannot cling to sin and at the same time cling to Jesus.

Dave

 

[sfodz]

Dave,

I've always been confused on the area of salvation, what the effects of sin are on our salvation, and the other points that you brought up.

I wanted to thank you for your posts throughout the thread as I have found them to be helpful in answering those questions and doubts that I've been having for several years now, just gnawing away at the back of my mind. Your answer is indeed changing and shaping my views and understanding on the topic and it does bring a measure of peace and comfort along with that.

The only real question that I have now is how far or how long does one have to persist in sin before they cross the line and are no longer saved? What about habitual sins, like pornography in which one hates what they do but find it difficult to stop?

 

[archierieus]

Hi Sfodz,

I understand. I too have struggled with thiings. To my understanding, it boils down to having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I want nothing to be between my soul and the Savior, nothing to shatter the harmony. For that reason, I do not want to persist in sin. Doing so interferes with that personal relationship. I do not have the sense of peace and Christ's blessing if I continue to do something I know to be wrong. As for the theory, I believe that once a person accepts Jesus, he or she is 'saved,' and one of God's people, adopted into His family. Then, as someone else has pointed out, God deals with us as dearly-loved children, discipling when needed, always affirming and being there for us, letting us know He believes in us. But we retain the freedom to opt out of the relationship. Ultimately, each person will make one choice or the other. And God accepts and ratifies our choice.

If we choose to persist in sin, then we are pushing God away. God does not push us away, we do so to Him. We are setting up barriers. As part of a loving relationship, those barriers need to be removed. How may that be done? God is here to help, and He has promised to help. Let nothing come between you and the Savior, nothing you know Jesus would be uncomfortable with. If something is a habitual sin, then I suggest the first step is to give it to Jesus, to turn it over to His Lordship and ask Him to take it from you. Ask God to give you hatred for the sin. Pray, continue in prayer, do not let the matter drop until Jesus gives you the victory. Claim the promises, "Now unto Him Who is able to keep you from falling . . ." (Jude) and "Resist the devil, and he shall flee from you." (James 4:6?) And remember, you can do "all things through Christ" Who strengthens you.

Having claimed those promises, follow through with your effort. Taking the example of porn, make a conscious decision to walk away from it. Don't buy the mags, don't go the sites online. At first, it may be a struggle. But Jesus will strenghten your will as you exercise your will power. He won't do it for you, but He will strenghten you in your effort to do right. And it will become easier as you persist.

God bless you, my friend! I will pray for you.

Dave

 

[MrPolo]

I'll just throw in the long-taught Catholic angle on the damage caused by sin in case that jogs anybody's understanding. Not trying to proseletyze, just sharing. Although we also believe in Tradition, I will favor Scriptural references for these teachings:

Even believers have the tendency to sin (eg. 1 Jn 1:8, Prv 24:16). Living in certain serious sins are fatal the soul (eg. Gal 5:19-21) although not all sins are deadly in this way (eg. 1 Jn 5:17). Even a lighter sin, done by true believers who are repentant of that sin, will cause damage to the soul, stains or injury, so to speak, such as unresolved reconcilement with his neighbor or addiction to that sin (eg. Jn 8:34). We are then called to free ourselves (eg Lk 12:59) from these after-effects because we are to be without blemish (eg Jud 1:24) and perfect in heaven. Through Jesus alone can we be purified of every minute stain.

 

[squint]

Looking at this subject from what I would consider a most obvious view because our actions are out for all to see what does salvation bring 'today?'

It brings 'self' justification. Nearly ALL believers justify themselves and excuse their sins in the name of God. This category breaks down into 2 primary segments:

1.) Once saved always saved.
2.) Potential loss of salvation. (Which promotion is almost to the person vaunted upon other people but NOT upon the promoters of same.)

Another most obvious outcome of salvation is condemnation unto our fellow man unto various forms of eternal fates including but not limited to:

a.) Eternal burning alive
b.) Eternal separation
c.) Eternal eradication/death

These results are beyond denial as these are the fulcrum of nearly ALL christian beliefs.

There are other far more interesting contemplations of salvation (to me) than what is described above. And a good scriptural case can be made AGAINST ALL of the above positions 1-2 (justification of self-salvation) and a-c (eternal condemnation of our neighbors/all mankind.)

Against justification of self or 'self salvation' (on any basis)

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


Against positions a-c:

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

And there are very LOGICAL scriptural reasonings why these various workings have transpired in the minds of hearts of nearly ALL believers which will be 'universally DENIED' by nearly ALL believers as it pertains to themSELVES:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

enjoy!

squint