Ask your pastor

[tall73]

I am proposing an experiment.

Ask your pastor whether they believe in the Adventist investigative judgment. Ask them to explain it to you.

Then report back here the results.


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I know a number I have talked to that do not believe it. Will they admit it to you? Some might, some might not. Some told me privately but in public would not admit to it.

Some would say it because they are in a liberal church, so are not worried about it.

Is a fundamental belief still fundamental if half the church either do not know or or don't believe it?





Results Reporting:

EastCoastRemnant-inconclusive, he doesn't have a pastor to ask. But his last pastor wanted heaven to be shaped like a baseball diamond.

OntheDL, the pastor before this one rejected the doctrine. The new one has not been thoroughly questioned but DL think it is unlikely given his evangelical message. He also notes that ministerial students are taught spiritual formation rather than the Bible and SDA beliefs.

 

[tall73]

The historical de-emphasizing of the doctrine can be traced back a number of years. For instance, Andreasen noted it among the ministerial candidates of his day in the wake of Ballenger's critique of the sanctuary.

If my experience as a teacher in the Seminary may be taken as a criterion, I would say that a large number of our ministers have serious doubt as to the correctness of the views we hold on certain phases of the sanctuary. They believe, in a general way, that we are correct, but they are as fully assured that Ballenger's views have never been fully met and that we cannot meet them. Not wishing to make the matter an issue, they simply decide that the question is not vital - and thus the whole subject of the sanctuary is relegated, in their minds at least, to the background. This is not a wholesome situation. If the subject is as vital as we have thought and taught it to be, it is not of secondary importance. Today, in the minds of a considerable part of the ministry, as far as my experience in the Seminary is concerned, it has little vital bearing, either in their lives or theology. I dread to see the day when our enemies will make capital of our weakness. I dread still more to see the day when our ministry will begin to raise questions.


M. L. Andreason letter, 1942.

The ministry started questioning some time ago.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Ask your pastor whether they believe in the Adventist investigative judgment. Ask them to explain it to you.

I know a number I have talked to that do not believe it. Will they admit it to you? Some might, some might not. Some told me privately but in public would not admit to it.

Some would say it because they are in a liberal church, so are not worried about it.

Is a fundamental belief still fundamental if half the church either do not know or or don't believe it?

And why is the church in this position?

Oh, so I'm to base my belief and understanding of scripture and of SOP from the guy up front.... thanx for clarifying that.

The last Adventist minister that lead our church before we left hoped that heaven was like a giant baseball diamond because he really liked the sport. Maybe I should have followed his creed and then everything would have been alright and we wouldn't have left the conference.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The ministry started questioning some time ago.

That settles it then... ministers don't buy it, it ain't truth.

Or maybe it's the liberal, jesuit influenced training they received...

 

[tall73]

Oh, so I'm to base my belief and understanding of scripture and of SOP from the guy up front.... thanx for clarifying that.

The last Adventist minister that lead our church before we left hoped that heaven was like a giant baseball diamond because he really liked the sport. Maybe I should have followed his creed and then everything would have been alright and we wouldn't have left the conference.

A. I didn't say you should base everything on the minister.

B. If all the ministers were that way, then the church has bigger issues than folks let on here.

 

[tall73]

That settles it then... ministers don't buy it, it ain't truth.

Or maybe it's the liberal, jesuit influenced training they received...

Maybe so!

What is the plan to fix it if your whole ministry is corrupt then?

 

[tall73]

Are other folks feeling the same way about their pastor as ECR?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Sister White spoke of the apostacy the clergy would be engaged in... no big surprise. Despite the apostate teaching these men are recieving, there are some that are remaining true to God's Word and to the pioneer positions.

You know the saying... if you can't stand the heat of purification, get out of the kitchen of Grace.

 

[tall73]

Sister White spoke of the apostacy the clergy would be engaged in... no big surprise. Despite the apostate teaching these men are recieving, there are some that are remaining true to God's Word and to the pioneer positions.

You know the saying... if you can't stand the heat of purification, get out of the kitchen of Grace.

I thought you all didn't want to focus on Sister White. Now you quote her again.

She talks about how folks have brought scriptures against them for 50 years, yet somehow it is a prophecy that folks will still do this in the future?

And her solution? Their experience was what mattered, don't look at the scriptures if they go against it.

 

[tall73]

Sister White spoke of...

Why do you want John not to talk of Sister White but you keep quoting her?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Why do you want John not to talk of Sister White but you keep quoting her?

John was trying to debate and disparage sister Whites writings in a SDA forum. I am using her writings as a bulwark against your hyberbole...

 

[tall73]

John was trying to debate and disparage sister Whites writings in a SDA forum. I am using her writings as a bulwark against your hyberbole...

So you only want to bring her up if it supports your position? Got ya.

And it is no hyperbole that many reject the IJ. In fact you seem to be arguing for my position not against it.

Now the notion that Ellen White predicted such when it was already happening--yes, we agree, she did predict that when it was already happening.

 

[tall73]

I am using her writings as a bulwark against your hyberbole...

If Adventists only go by the Bible, why do you need her writings as a bulwark?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Oh, so I'm to base my belief and understanding of scripture and of SOP from the guy up front.... thanx for clarifying that.

The last Adventist minister that lead our church before we left hoped that heaven was like a giant baseball diamond because he really liked the sport. Maybe I should have followed his creed and then everything would have been alright and we wouldn't have left the conference.

what does it mean you left the conference? technically?

 

[tall73]

what does it mean you left the conference? technically?

He can clarify but I think he has referenced before he doesn't still frequent a denominational church.

There are a lot of independents who see the GC in apostasy to one degree or another.

He can let you know whether that is his view.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

He can clarify but I think he has referenced before he doesn't still frequent a denominational church.

There are a lot of independents who see the GC in apostasy to one degree or another.

He can let you know whether that is his view.

Initially, that is correct Tall as we were very new to the faith and were not having our concerns addressed... I have since come to understand my position in leaving was somewhat in error in respect to my responsibility to the church but on the flip side, we would not have grown as we have by staying.

I pray for the leadership of the conference that they may repent and come back in line with the tenets of the platform and pillars of our faith. The new GC president gave hope in his inaugeral speech last year (or was it 2010?)

 

[Pythons]

Most certainly - if Ellen White was simply a little light that points to the largest of all lights....
....Then there has to be more about Talls question "in the Bible" because that's the largest of all lights.
....Or do I have that wrong?

As for E.C.R. leaving the General Conference because the G.C.S.D.A. went into apostasy E.C.R. is right....
....When Ellen White was alive the most important teaching to SDA's was that Father God had a body.
....With all the members, organs and parts of a perfect man.

We know the G.C. has distanced itself from this teaching and we know from SDA publications....
....THAT teaching was the most important in the world to SDA's.
....As their teaching on the Sanctuary & soul sleep was built upon it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

....When Ellen White was alive the most important teaching to SDA's was that Father God had a body.
....With all the members, organs and parts of a perfect man.

We know the G.C. has distanced itself from this teaching and we know from SDA publications....
....THAT teaching was the most important in the world to SDA's.
....As their teaching on the Sanctuary & soul sleep was built upon it.

Do you just fabricate this stuff for the fun of it... actually, I still believe you are some kind of agent provocateur working directly or indirectly for the Jesuits. No one Catholic has this much fascination with SDA matters and makes such disparaging comments about our faith without having an agenda to do so. Consider this my last dialogue even towards you... I would counsel all SDA members on this forum to do the same.

 

[tall73]

Initially, that is correct Tall as we were very new to the faith and were not having our concerns addressed... I have since come to understand my position in leaving was somewhat in error in respect to my responsibility to the church but on the flip side, we would not have grown as we have by staying.

I pray for the leadership of the conference that they may repent and come back in line with the tenets of the platform and pillars of our faith. The new GC president gave hope in his inaugeral speech last year (or was it 2010?)

He continues to be quite conservative. Sounds like it may be more of a local church issue.

You know, you can go to church on Sabbath and still have meetings in your home during the week. We had official small groups and just some among the more conservative who liked to get together for home church. I had no issue with it.

 

[tall73]

Anyone take the challenge yet?