Ask the Christian..

[LittleLambofJesus]

I can't agree with dianetics; it excludes everyone that came before it; it excludes everyone with an IQ less than 105; it even excludes Tom Cruse in his debacle on the Oprah show...ha ha. I would "pity" (to use your words) those who do not believe in one god. Even Darwin would agree with me.

Darwin's own instructions in his theory of evolution thesis were to discard this theory if archeology did not uncover intermediary fossils. Here we are, almost 500 years later, no intermediary fossils. Per Darwin's own instructions, his theory goes out the window!

Greetings. Is there a board other than this one at the link below that atheists and Christians can debate C&E?

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=143
Origins Theology

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Darwin's own instructions in his theory of evolution thesis were to discard this theory if archeology did not uncover intermediary fossils. Here we are, almost 500 years later, no intermediary fossils. Per Darwin's own instructions, his theory goes out the window!

1. Five hundred years???
2. How did we end up discussing evolution all of a sudden, anyway?
3. Transitional fossils? You mean, like these?

A common, though fallacious, creationist argument is that no fossils are found with partially functional features. Vestigial organs are common in whales for example. Also, there is evidence that a complex feature with one function can adapt to a wholly different function through evolution in a process known as exaptation. The precursor to, for example, a wing, might originally have only been used for gliding, trapping flying prey, and/or mating display. Nowadays, wings may still have all of these functions, while also being used for active flight.

Although transitional fossils elucidate the evolutionary transition of one life-form to another, they only exemplify snapshots of this process. Due to the special circumstances required for preservation of remains, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries. Thus, the transition itself can only be illustrated and corroborated by transitional fossils, but it will never be "caught in the act" as it were. Creationists often argue against this, claiming it is merely a convenient way to explain the lack of 'snapshot' fossils that show crucial steps between species. However, progress in research and new discoveries continue to fill in such gaps, and in modern thinking evolution is pictured as a bush of lines of development, not the simplistic ladder of progress that was common before Darwin published his theory and still influences popular opinion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

1. Five hundred years???
2. How did we end up discussing evolution all of a sudden, anyway?
3. Transitional fossils? You mean, like these?

I tend to avoid debates on C&E and the "trinity". Here is one thread on Darwin though I would imagine there are plenty of them on this board......Peace

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7304966
Darwin Debunks himself? what did we miss?

It was Darwin who said

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species: A Facsimile of the First Edition, Harvard University Press, 1964, p. 189.

This is very, very interesting I know there are many of you out there who call yourselves "Theist Evolutionists" who most definitely follow Darwins theorys of evolution.

It is interesting how back then 1809-1882 the technology to see even the simpelest yet extrordinarly complex cells that each organ is made up of did not exist.

How would you explain this?

 

[Luzeiro]

Could I gently suggest that this is not the way to convince others to consider Christianity. It may also be contrary to God's word

In John 12, Jesus says:

47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

and also James 4 provide more sage advice:

11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

So this is really tricky ground- we shouldn't judge, so how should we, who are convinced that Jesus provides the only way to salvation, deal with those who do not profess to be Christians?

I think one way is to urge them to examine three things:

1. the basic tenements of their faith.

2. the origin of their faith, and the actions and life style of its founder.

3. what promise their faith holds for the future; what hope does it provide for dealing with sin and life after death.

Christianity is, above all else, a religion of love, as so well demonstrated in the sinless life of Jesus Christ, and in the hope that Jesus provides for the future.

Christianity has remained unchanged for thousands of years, is consistent with all the archeological discoveries made in the Middle East, and provides a clear road map to Heaven. Others may have their own answer, but as for me, I know what I've got, don't know what I'd get if I changed, and therefore will stay with the Lord forever.

Is it not uncomfortable to judge the words a Christian shares here as unloving and un-Christian? It should be food for thought at least, since none of us express ourselves alike. Should I ask what tenements of faith are and thereby cause you embarrassment? Or should I ask what business it is of yours to interject YOUR way of doing things into the way of others who are as guided by the Holy Spirit as anyone who is; and whom the Holy Spirit reaches on the level they are reachable?

Therefore, should I gently suggest you do not correct the Christian; not publically, anyways.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Is it not uncomfortable to judge the words a Christian shares here as unloving and un-Christian? It should be food for thought at least, since none of us express ourselves alike. Should I ask what tenements of faith are and thereby cause you embarrassment? Or should I ask what business it is of yours to interject YOUR way of doing things into the way of others who are as guided by the Holy Spirit as anyone who is; and whom the Holy Spirit reaches on the level they are reachable?

Therefore, should I gently suggest you do not correct the Christian; not publically, anyways.

Don't you think it somewhat dishonest to use two standards - one for "us" and one for "them"? Shouldn't the same standard apply to anyone - or even better, shouldn't you hold your own faction to a HIGHER standard than others, seeing how their behaviour reflects upon your own as well?

I was greatly and positively impressed by SoJ's interjection; I thought his response outstanding and commendable, for his honesty as well as for his desire to do the right thing.
Yours, on the other hand, encourages dishonesty and double standards.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by arunma Why would we do otherwise? All people, without exception, who practice non-Christian religions will go to hell. Why would we encourage discussion of such horrible faiths, when only the Gospel of Christ saves? Of course we would encourage discussion of Jesus Christ and his Gospel instead of these terrible non-Christian religions.

Now I know why I am not a Calvinist........

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages" of the ages. [Ezra 3:2]
4 And fall the elders, the twenty four, and the four living-ones, and worship to the God, to the One sitting upon the throne saying: "amen allelouia".

Ezra 3:12 And many ones from the Priests and the Levites, and the Chiefs/ro'sh of the fathers, the elders, who saw the House, the former, in laying foundation of this the House in eyes of them ones lamenting in voice loud and many ones in shouting in rejoicing to raise up of voice.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Is it not uncomfortable to judge the words a Christian shares here as unloving and un-Christian?

No judgement was intended, and no suggestion that any comments were unloving.

1 Peter 3:

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Should I ask what tenements of faith are and thereby cause you embarrassment?

Funny- I presume you're referring to my use of the word "tenement" instead of "tenet". No embarrassment was felt- quite the contrary, appreciation that you would bring the needed correction to my attention.

Or should I ask what business it is of yours to interject YOUR way of doing things into the way of others who are as guided by the Holy Spirit as anyone who is; and whom the Holy Spirit reaches on the level they are reachable?

I wasn't trying to impose MY way, but suggesting that GOD'S way- as spelled out in the Bible- is NOT to judge; that we should leave that to God.

Therefore, should I gently suggest you do not correct the Christian; not publically, anyways.

I wasn't correcting- just offering my opinion that one is less likely to win others to Christ if you go to non-believers and say to them "All of you people who practice non-Christian religions will go to hell."

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Help Stop Islam! ...over 12,000 selfish attacks since 9/11 ... Islam Kills

Hi Ahmid,

Can I play devil's advocate and ask how you know that the selfish attacks attributed to Islam really are being carried out by Muslims?

The suicide attacks are certainly heinous- but it is difficult to believe that anyone who blows themselves up in a crowded marketplace in Iraq or Afghanistan and indiscriminately kills men, women, and children of all races and religions is a follower of either God or Allah.

My theory is that these people are soldiers of the devil and only pay lip service to Islam; they are no more Muslims than Timothy McVie was following the principles of Christianity.

Don't get me wrong- I also am a devout follower of Jesus Christ, and wish that all people would turn to Him. But I also believe that the way to convince others to follow Jesus is to describe the great benefits of doing so- that they then, upon repentance, will have their sins forgiven and be promised a place in Heaven, and never again have to worry about any hardships that they may have to endure here on earth. That they will have a perfect example of how to live their life to follow, that they will receive guidance from the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, and direct access to God through prayer.

 

[Luzeiro]

Don't you think it somewhat dishonest to use two standards - one for "us" and one for "them"? Shouldn't the same standard apply to anyone - or even better, shouldn't you hold your own faction to a HIGHER standard than others, seeing how their behaviour reflects upon your own as well?

I was greatly and positively impressed by SoJ's interjection; I thought his response outstanding and commendable, for his honesty as well as for his desire to do the right thing.
Yours, on the other hand, encourages dishonesty and double standards.

No, the same standards do not and should not apply to everyone; that's a tad ludicrous. It is your personal bias that sees me the way you describe and the same bias that makes you choose one way of thinking over another. That's not impressive.

So far as my behavior is concerned, reflected on me by that of others......that's kindergarten and I thought of you at least in third grade. Well, that's infinity-fetched, since I don't think of you at all.

 

[Luzeiro]

No judgement was intended, and no suggestion that any comments were unloving.

1 Peter 3:

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.



Funny- I presume you're referring to my use of the word "tenement" instead of "tenet". No embarrassment was felt- quite the contrary, appreciation that you would bring the needed correction to my attention.



I wasn't trying to impose MY way, but suggesting that GOD'S way- as spelled out in the Bible- is NOT to judge; that we should leave that to God.



I wasn't correcting- just offering my opinion that one is less likely to win others to Christ if you go to non-believers and say to them "All of you people who practice non-Christian religions will go to hell."

I find it interesting that you recommend not to judge.

" ..............he that is spiritual judges all things" (1 Cor. 2:15).

.........leaves the impression that the scriptures quoted are superficially understood.

All those without Christ, who stay without Christ, who die without Christ, will do what?

 

[Luzeiro]

Hi Ahmid,

Can I play devil's advocate and ask how you know that the selfish attacks attributed to Islam really are being carried out by Muslims?

The suicide attacks are certainly heinous- but it is difficult to believe that anyone who blows themselves up in a crowded marketplace in Iraq or Afghanistan and indiscriminately kills men, women, and children of all races and religions is a follower of either God or Allah.

My theory is that these people are soldiers of the devil and only pay lip service to Islam; they are no more Muslims than Timothy McVie was following the principles of Christianity.

Don't get me wrong- I also am a devout follower of Jesus Christ, and wish that all people would turn to Him. But I also believe that the way to convince others to follow Jesus is to describe the great benefits of doing so- that they then, upon repentance, will have their sins forgiven and be promised a place in Heaven, and never again have to worry about any hardships that they may have to endure here on earth. That they will have a perfect example of how to live their life to follow, that they will receive guidance from the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, and direct access to God through prayer.

What do you think is the percentage of terrorist attacks all over the world is carried out by muslims? A guess, off the top of your head, what do YOU think? What do YOU think will eventually happen to the thoughtless muslim world when that world gets tired of the terrorism?

Do you know where Armageddon is? Literally and biblically?

If the man puts his boot in your butt long enough, you'll want to do something about it, eh?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I find it interesting that you recommend not to judge.

" ..............he that is spiritual judges all things" (1 Cor. 2:15).

.........leaves the impression that the scriptures quoted are superficially understood.

All those without Christ, who stay without Christ, who die without Christ, will do what?

According to the Bible, die and go to hell; HOWEVER.......

We are not to judge whether someone is saved or not.

1 Corinthians 2 makes that pretty clear I think.

15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"

We certainly have to continually use our judgment to help us live in a way that is pleasing to God.

 

[Luzeiro]

We are not to judge whether someone is saved or not.

1 Corinthians 2 makes that pretty clear I think.

15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"

We certainly have to continually use our judgment to help us live in a way that is pleasing to God.

Today's Christians do not believe that there are objective standards for judgment. When there are no standards; such as the ten commandments for instance; there is no way to measure behavior.
Standards are imperative. In a sinning world, existence is short-lived when no one is held responsible. No standards, no perfection; no judgment, no love.

If we say nothing, do not judge, who opposes the evil ones? And the evil ones will continue to do evil.

Evil pervades when no one judges the evil-doer.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Today's Christians do not believe that there are objective standards for judgment. When there are no standards; such as the ten commandments for instance; there is no way to measure behavior.
Standards are imperative.

I absolutely agree; this is a huge problem in our world- the lack of defined standards. A non-religious person or atheist may claim that he or she lives by a certain moral code- but who is to say that their moral code is any better or worse than someone else's. So everyone ends up making up their own rules- and the only societal standard is set by the Criminal Code and similar legislated standards- but they only apply if you get caught!

The Bible makes it very clear: murder is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong, etc. etc. As Christians, we will continue to sin- but will always be convicted by the Holy Spirit who will always remind us that a sinful act we commit is wrong, no matter how we might try and justify our action.

In a sinning world, existence is short-lived when no one is held responsible. No standards, no perfection; no judgment, no love.

If we say nothing, do not judge, who opposes the evil ones? And the evil ones will continue to do evil.

Evil pervades when no one judges the evil-doer.

Again, we should follow the example of Jesus- who certainly did not mince words when it came to spotlighting sin. So we must stand up and confront evil and pass judgment, just like the courts do.

But where we need to draw the line is judging whether someone is saved or not- that is only for Jesus to do.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

What do you think is the percentage of terrorist attacks all over the world is carried out by muslims? A guess, off the top of your head, what do YOU think? What do YOU think will eventually happen to the thoughtless muslim world when that world gets tired of the terrorism?

Depends on how you define terrorism, and how you decide whether someone is a Muslim or not.

There are probably more people killed by criminals throughout the world than are killed by terrorists acting under some religious guise. So I would put murderers in the same league as terrorists- they both are acting contrary to God's commandment.

Do you know where Armageddon is? Literally and biblically?

Well, literally in central Israel; beautiful spot, actually- a small hill with a beautiful view over the surrounding farming countryside. There is now a McDonalds close by with free wireless Internet.

Biblically- a lot closer than most people think.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

No, the same standards do not and should not apply to everyone; that's a tad ludicrous.

It's the foundation of fairness, justice and the law. But I'm not surprised that you'd find that ludicrous, seeing how you subscribe to the most primitive form of authoritarian tribalist ethics.

It is your personal bias that sees me the way you describe and the same bias that makes you choose one way of thinking over another. That's not impressive.

Honestly, these sentences are such a bunch of garbled nonsense that I don't even see the point you were trying to make.

So far as my behavior is concerned, reflected on me by that of others......that's kindergarten and I thought of you at least in third grade.

And yet, this very concept prompted you to protest against "criticizing one of our own in public". Your dishonesty and insolence is only dwarfed by your inability to grasp what you're doing.

 

[Futuwwa]

Ask the Christian? Well, here's one: How do you reconcile the at least 666 contradictions found in the Bible?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Ask the Christian? Well, here's one: How do you reconcile the at least 666 contradictions found in the Bible?

The same way a LDS-member reconciles the many absurdities of the Book of Mormon: rationalizations, rationalizations, rationalizations.

Didn't you hear?

 

[Luzeiro]

I absolutely agree; this is a huge problem in our world- the lack of defined standards. A non-religious person or atheist may claim that he or she lives by a certain moral code- but who is to say that their moral code is any better or worse than someone else's. So everyone ends up making up their own rules- and the only societal standard is set by the Criminal Code and similar legislated standards- but they only apply if you get caught!

The Bible makes it very clear: murder is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong, etc. etc. As Christians, we will continue to sin- but will always be convicted by the Holy Spirit who will always remind us that a sinful act we commit is wrong, no matter how we might try and justify our action.



Again, we should follow the example of Jesus- who certainly did not mince words when it came to spotlighting sin. So we must stand up and confront evil and pass judgment, just like the courts do.

But where we need to draw the line is judging whether someone is saved or not- that is only for Jesus to do.

Nor did Jesus mince words when addressing sinners. Or did He say "you generation of vipers, you shall be with me in paradise"? Therefore, we are able to judge the vipers around us and judge their destination.

 

[Luzeiro]

Depends on how you define terrorism, and how you decide whether someone is a Muslim or not.

There are probably more people killed by criminals throughout the world than are killed by terrorists acting under some religious guise. So I would put murderers in the same league as terrorists- they both are acting contrary to God's commandment.



Well, literally in central Israel; beautiful spot, actually- a small hill with a beautiful view over the surrounding farming countryside. There is now a McDonalds close by with free wireless Internet.

Biblically- a lot closer than most people think.

No, that is not where Armageddon is.