Ask God for Me

[Clizby WampusCat]

You are attempting to support the claim "theists here are telling me knowing the truth is a bad thing." Neither of these quotes support your claim at all.

ok.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Can your god convince me to not refuse? Apparently not.

And don't impugn my character. I don't refuse evidence.

They must either believe we are lying or that the bible is untrue. Which one do you think they will pick most of the time.

 

[Tinker Grey]

They must either believe we are lying or that the bible is untrue. Which one do you think they will pick most of the time.

Indeed. This sort of thinking is what leads to pogroms and crusades. We are obviously perverse, denying the obvious. Clearly such a scourge must be eliminated. And theists wonder why atheists might occasionally bend towards anti-theism.

 

[Jok]

I was convinced that the Christian god was the only god, so I believed god existed and in Christianity at the same time. And yes, I believe that the arguments for a god and the christian god are unconvincing when studied.

Then that makes sense, thanks. So sounds like a lot of Christians will come to intellectually believe in the general concept of God as just an understandable consequence of them believing in Christianity. Then it’s also understandable if their general belief in God goes out the window as a package deal if their belief in Christianity goes out the window. That makes sense and it sounds like that was your case, I couldn’t tell at first that’s why I asked. So then after the fact you got into logic, and the general arguments for God were just not convincing for you.

Basically I find it interesting to see which former Christians retain their intellectual belief in the general existence of God (in a sort of Einstein type God of the universe) THAT they attained by listening to apologists, and which former Christians throw BOTH beliefs away after they lose their belief in Christianity due to a crisis of faith that has nothing to do with existence of God arguments. I’m currently of the opinion that most former Christians over shoot and throw away both beliefs as an angry protest reaction against Christianity. Most former Christians don’t even dive into logic after they throw away their faith, they just walk away and go about their life. So for example, it would not be logical if someone found the Teleological Argument to be extremely convincing for God’s existence, but then they become an atheist because the problem of evil ripped them out of Christianity. It would be more logical for them to be a deist. But I definitely run into former Christians who do something like that, they just jump over deism all the way over to atheism.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Indeed. This sort of thinking is what leads to pogroms and crusades. We are obviously perverse, denying the obvious. Clearly such a scourge must be eliminated. And theists wonder why atheists might occasionally bend towards anti-theism.

Learned a new word "pogrom". Thanks. I agree, they think we can choose what we believe. I cannot think of one thing I believe to be true that I could force myself to believe otherwise.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Then that makes sense, thanks. So sounds like a lot of Christians will come to intellectually believe in the general concept of God as just an understandable consequence of them believing in Christianity. Then it’s also understandable if their general belief in God goes out the window as a package deal if their belief in Christianity goes out the window. That makes sense and it sounds like that was your case, I couldn’t tell at first that’s why I asked. So then after the fact you got into logic, and the general arguments for God were just not convincing for you.

I don't really remember the exact sequence of events when I got out of belief. I probably was a deist for a short time but once things start going it snowballs into atheism pretty fast. At least for me. It took a couple of months once I started to doubt.

Basically I find it interesting to see which former Christians retain their intellectual belief in the general existence of God (in a sort of Einstein type God of the universe) THAT they attained by listening to apologists, and which former Christians throw BOTH beliefs away after they lose their belief in Christianity due to a crisis of faith that has nothing to do with existence of God arguments. I’m currently of the opinion that most former Christians over shoot and throw away both beliefs as an angry protest reaction against Christianity. Most former Christians don’t even dive into logic after they throw away their faith, they just walk away and go about their life. So for example, it would not be logical if someone found the Teleological Argument to be extremely convincing for God’s existence, but then they become an atheist because the problem of evil ripped them out of Christianity. It would be more logical for them to be a deist. But I definitely run into former Christians who do something like that, they just jump over deism all the way over to atheism.

Maybe, my experience was basically learning epistemology, skepticism and logic. With those tools it was clear that my belief was on bad reasoning. God could exist, there is just not sufficient reasons to believe it does.

 

[Jok]

I don't really remember the exact sequence of events when I got out of belief. I probably was a deist for a short time but once things start going it snowballs into atheism pretty fast. At least for me. It took a couple of months once I started to doubt.

Yeah unless you remain spiritual in a practical sense there’s probably almost no difference at all.

Maybe, my experience was basically learning epistemology, skepticism and logic. With those tools it was clear that my belief was on bad reasoning. God could exist, there is just not sufficient reasons to believe it does.

Epistemology is definitely a subjective and tricky thing. I think I fit somewhere in the middle. I know that a large chunk of my belief is built ontop of inference and I’m ok with that, since it’s on a foundation of personal experience. I know that on one side of me there are people who would frown on both of those forms of evidence as totally insufficient, and then to the other side of me there are people who would believe on much less reasons than me. At the end of the day IMHO a person’s belief in Christianity will be rocky if the foundation isn’t personal experience. And again I know that many will epistemologically consider that statement to be a logical error on my part. But I believe in mystical ‘Knowledge.’

 

[Ed1wolf]

But God created humanity knowing the likelihood that most would not believe the precise way it wants us to (assuming this God functions in that manner and not through universal reconciliation or some variant where it actually might care about our hearts and not just a particular belief about scapegoating and sin),

No, He does know our hearts, he knows that we naturally hate a God like Himself. That is why our heart has to be changed to truly believe and grow spiritually to complete our mission with His help to destroy evil forever.

[/quote]mm: so God arguably has primary responsibility in the same vein as a man constantly having unprotected sex and then siring a bunch of children that they just refuse to acknowledge (by changing their identity or other tactics).[/quote]
No, your analogy has it reversed. The children refuse to acknowledge their father.

mm: Except God is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful, so it could create a situation where our freewill is respected as a matter of respecting our autonomy and ALSO respecting our freedom to the extent that we are not punished merely because we are imperfect (as God would know) and must believe in the scapegoating for sin and such)

No, we are not punished for being imperfect. We are punished for not acknowledging our Creator and refusing to follow His moral law which is for our own good in this world and the next. This can even be seen in His creation without the special revelation of the Bible so we are without excuse.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I believe it is the best explanation of the facts at the moment. But to say I believe it actually exists is maybe a stretch. I would say I don't know but the physics points to its existence.

Ok, so it is with God, the physics points to His existence but you dont believe He actually exists.

 

[dlamberth]

No, we are not punished for being imperfect. We are punished for not acknowledging our Creator and refusing to follow His moral law which is for our own good in this world and the next. This can even be seen in His creation without the special revelation of the Bible so we are without excuse.

My question bubbled up from your Creation comment.
Every morning I watch Creation in the form of the variety of birds that visit the feeders setup outside my dining room window. Please explain how those birds are being punished for "not acknowledging our Creator and refusing to follow His moral law?"

 

[dlamberth]

Ok, so it is with God, the physics points to His existence but you dont believe He actually exists.

If anything, I think that Physics points towards the Hindu image of God way more than the Christian image of God.

 

[muichimotsu]

No, He does know our hearts, he knows that we naturally hate a God like Himself. That is why our heart has to be changed to truly believe and grow spiritually to complete our mission with His help to destroy evil forever.

So by your own admission, we have no free will in terms of doing the very thing God supposedly gave us free will to choose...so it's a rigged system in your own words. You cannot destroy evil unless you believe evil is a substance rather than the far more reasonable notion that it is a quality, a privation of good, which is also not a substance to be destroyed

No, your analogy has it reversed. The children refuse to acknowledge their father.

I have evidence my parents exist, we don't have evidence God exists, your analogy fails fantastically

No, we are not punished for being imperfect. We are punished for not acknowledging our Creator and refusing to follow His moral law which is for our own good in this world and the next. This can even be seen in His creation without the special revelation of the Bible so we are without excuse.

Again, evidence or you're just asserting this without any real substantiation. How are we to find moral law in creation when nature is utterly cruel (see the present pandemic or any nature documentary for examples of that)?

 

[Ed1wolf]

My question bubbled up from your Creation comment.
Every morning I watch Creation in the form of the variety of birds that visit the feeders setup outside my dining room window. Please explain how those birds are being punished for "not acknowledging our Creator and refusing to follow His moral law?"

No, I was only referring to how it can be seen in humans. Animals such as birds are not moral beings so they are not punished for anything because they dont make moral decisions.

 

[Ed1wolf]

If anything, I think that Physics points towards the Hindu image of God way more than the Christian image of God.

It is my understanding that Hinduism teaches that the universe is eternal, physics says otherwise. If I am wrong about hindu teaching then you are free to correct me. There are other scientific and philosophical problems with Hinduism as well if you want to discuss.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Epistemology is definitely a subjective and tricky thing. I think I fit somewhere in the middle. I know that a large chunk of my belief is built ontop of inference and I’m ok with that, since it’s on a foundation of personal experience. I know that on one side of me there are people who would frown on both of those forms of evidence as totally insufficient, and then to the other side of me there are people who would believe on much less reasons than me. At the end of the day IMHO a person’s belief in Christianity will be rocky if the foundation isn’t personal experience. And again I know that many will epistemologically consider that statement to be a logical error on my part. But I believe in mystical ‘Knowledge.’

I would be in the camp of mystic knowledge is unsupported by good evidence. But, in the end, a deist belief is more reasonable than a specific religious belief in my opinion. Are you a deist?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Ok, so it is with God, the physics points to His existence but you dont believe He actually exists.

What physics points to the existence of God? Physics is clear that some form of matter/energy must exist, we just don't know what form that is.

 

[muichimotsu]

No, I was only referring to how it can be seen in humans. Animals such as birds are not moral beings so they are not punished for anything because they dont make moral decisions.

By animals you likely mean non human animals, because we are technically animals as well, the problem becoming how the word in the vernacular tends to suggest something more of a prescriptive quality rather than the descriptive one I prefer to use myself more often: that we are animals rather than plants or the like taxonomically and "beast" could substitute just as well for the non-human animal so we don't have to add the qualifier

 

[muichimotsu]

It is my understanding that Hinduism teaches that the universe is eternal, physics says otherwise. If I am wrong about hindu teaching then you are free to correct me. There are other scientific and philosophical problems with Hinduism as well if you want to discuss.

Physics doesn't state anything in regards to an absolute answer, because it's science, the universe very well could have a beginning, but that's one interpretation in regards to the Big bang cosmological model and there isn't necessarily evidence that leans primarily to one or the other given that we can't readily study beyond black holes, but merely speculate about what happens to Planck time beyond the event horizon, etc.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So enlighten me, what do you think is the most likely explanation?

1. My wife and I had needs that equaled $2,037.
2. We didn't share the need with anyone.
3. A person in our community, who we weren't close with was spending time in prayer.
4. As a result of the time they spent in prayer, they believed that God wanted them to give us exactly $2,037.
5. They obeyed and did what they were prompted to do even though they didn't know us well and didn't know our need.

This reminds me of those "tests" Hindus perform to determine whether someone is the reincarnation of a certain person. They lay out many possessions before a child and see if the child picks only the correct items and all of the correct items. Surely they don't prompt the child to pick the correct items with certain clues or subtle prompts.

 

[dlamberth]

It is my understanding that Hinduism teaches that the universe is eternal, physics says otherwise. If I am wrong about hindu teaching then you are free to correct me. There are other scientific and philosophical problems with Hinduism as well if you want to discuss.

One of the key teachings of Hinduism is of the Energy, or primordial cosmic divine energy that moves through the entire Universe. Call it a Universal Force perhaps? It's a Life Force that expresses itSelf as a flow of Divine energy through the whole of Creation This is more in line with modern Physics than it is the Christian image of God as being separate and apart from Creation.