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Ask God for Me

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Ed1wolf

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So far is based on a necessarily limited perspective, you can't make claims that are throwing out other explanations without sufficient justification for why they are not needed rather than less likely (which is not the same as useless)
Less likely is all I am going for. It is called abductive reasoning, reasoning to the most likely explanation. And real individuality being true is the most likely explanation.

mm: I never claimed the universe was alive, or that energy was alive in the sense of biological life, that's strawmanning as if that's the only alternative. Even if I agree energy isn't alive that doesn't follow to anything regarding the existence of a deity or a soul or such supernatural things that are basically unfalsifiable in how they're described

Unlike other religions, Christianity is falsifiable. Because it is based on historical events.

mm: Christianity is "backed" by science insofar as people quote mine or selectively interpret science to fit notions that they wouldn't take seriously from any other religion. In short, confirmation bias tends to be how you "back" Christianity with science, treating the Bible as a scientific text rather than a narrative rooted in superstition and fantasy

No, most educated Christians dont claim it is a scientific text, but on the few areas it does touch on science, it has been shown to be basically correct when we realize God wants us to use His other book, Nature to understand it.

mm: Individuality is not self evident, that's circular reasoning, because the self is a perception of an individual, it's not something independently verifiable without more complex technology. You're hitting upon the solipsistic issues and don't appear to realize that you're digging yourself into a hole in suggesting that because we perceive something and it "makes sense" that we shouldn't consider any other explanations because they would counter that "common sense" perception we have.

Survival of the fittest is circular reasoning too, but most scientists consider it true. I didnt say we should not consider other explanations, but analyze them with every thing we have including self evident truths and common sense. And other considerations such as how we live our every day lives. It is similar to the problem with atheists living as if there is real objective meaning to life, when if there was no God then there is no real objective meaning to life. They have to live believing that there is meaning to life or they would go insane.
 
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muichimotsu

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Less likely is all I am going for. It is called abductive reasoning, reasoning to the most likely explanation. And real individuality being true is the most likely explanation.

Not sure what you remotely mean by real individuality, because you;'d have to be able to demonstrate that rather than simply waffling by saying it seems more likely: abductive reasoning is hardly what we should use in terms of areas of concern that aren't on a grandiose scale like cosmology.

My perception, or anyone's, of their individuality is not an absolute fact, it's a phenomenological experience that, while potentially accurate in the sense that we can delineate between people, it doesn't mean individuality in the sense of us all being, say, independent of each other in relationality or such is true, but that we necessarily have a social impulse, that no one is an island


Unlike other religions, Christianity is falsifiable. Because it is based on historical events.

"Historical" is a relative term: and you really think other religions cannot reference historical places and claim their stories are based on historical events? That seems highly naive to say nothing of intentionally vague as to what you consider "historical". Jesus as a historical person does not mean that the events associated with him are falsifiable...mostly because historical falsifiabilty is far more vague in nature than falsifiability as applies to natural sciences.

And with a severe lacking of serious contemporary sources that aren't specious in their links to the Christian cult, the historicity seems to hinge on secondhand accounts, 4 of which we don't even know the authors of (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John little more than traditions, nothing concrete there)


No, most educated Christians dont claim it is a scientific text, but on the few areas it does touch on science, it has been shown to be basically correct when we realize God wants us to use His other book, Nature to understand it.



Survival of the fittest is circular reasoning too, but most scientists consider it true. I didnt say we should not consider other explanations, but analyze them with every thing we have including self evident truths and common sense. And other considerations such as how we live our every day lives. It is similar to the problem with atheists living as if there is real objective meaning to life, when if there was no God then there is no real objective meaning to life. They have to live believing that there is meaning to life or they would go insane

Again, not sure you remotely understand what survival of the fittest means outside of caricatures of evolution or social Darwinists (which aren't the same as people who merely believe in natural selection as a descriptive phenomenon that varies by population and context). Fitness is not based on superiority, because evolution is not the contest we humans can unfortunately frame it as mistakenly

There is no objective external meaning to life, meaning is not imposed upon us, it is determined by our assessment of things and seeking out answers in a manner that can be compatible with society as a whole, the closes to a purpose that might be imposed, but more by necessity, not by religious twaddle masquerading as helping humanity with dogmatic moralizing.

There can be meaning in life as individuals seek it out and a meaning for people functioning in society, but function and purpose are quite distinct, one being pragmatic, the other being personal.

My purpose is individually determined, any outside influences secondary to my choices about how to live my life, my function is aiding the human society I live in and benefit from, as well as aiding future generations, you're oversimplifying the whole discussion to suggest atheists have to be nihilists, when God is not, and has not been demonstrated to be, required for determining purpose or function in human existence.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Why doesn't he show us he loves us instead of telling us for a change.
You have to accept it.

I don't. I have no evidence to believe that they were from God. I believed they were at the time becasue of bad evidence. When I realized it was bad evidence then I stopped believing. Give me sufficient evidence to believe God exist and I will have to believe. Do you have any?
What type of bad evidence? I have evidence enough for me to know that God exists. I didn't always however.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You have to accept it.
So I have to accept gods love before he will show me he loves me? I will love my kids no matter what they think of me. Christianity seems to promote unconditional love with conditions.


What type of bad evidence? I have evidence enough for me to know that God exists. I didn't always however.
That is fine. The evidence I believed were feelings, bible history, bible prophecy, dreams, scientific and anecdotal. I agree there is evidence for a gods existence. The problem is that my standards of belief were too low. With the standards of evidence that I had I could have believed almost anything. Once I realized my reasons were flawed and my standards of evidence went up I became unconvinced by the evidence I once took as sufficient.

Each person is convinced of something based on sufficient evidence and the standard of evidence they use to evaluate claims. We cannot choose to believe anything.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So I have to accept gods love before he will show me he loves me? I will love my kids no matter what they think of me. Christianity seems to promote unconditional love with conditions.
Interesting. Maybe here's a point of difference in what I've perceived about the nature of Christianity from that which you perceive. I've been a Christian for 34 years, and I've NEVER conceived of it (i.e. love from God via Christ) as "unconditional." Of course, I kept hearing that kind of thing at some of the churches I've been to over the years, but I've always kind of scratched my head and wondered........if I was reading the same book that [some] of my fellow Christians have been reading.

No, I think it's safe to say that God's Love is "conditional" and has some "strings attached." It's not a free lunch after all.


That is fine. The evidence I believed were feelings, bible history, bible prophecy, dreams, scientific and anecdotal. I agree there is evidence for a gods existence. The problem is that my standards of belief were too low. With the standards of evidence that I had I could have believed almost anything. Once I realized my reasons were flawed and my standards of evidence went up I became unconvinced by the evidence I once took as sufficient.

Each person is convinced of something based on sufficient evidence and the standard of evidence they use to evaluate claims. We cannot choose to believe anything.
... but you can choose to learn more, which may add additional insights that could turn the web of understanding you have within your mind in other directions. So enough of this implied assertion that "you can do nothing."
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Interesting. Maybe here's a point of difference in what I've perceived about the nature of Christianity from that which you perceive. I've been a Christian for 34 years, and I've NEVER conceived of it (i.e. love from God via Christ) as "unconditional." Of course, I kept hearing that kind of thing as some of the churches I've been to over the years, but I've always kind of scratched my head and wondered........if I was reading the same book that [some] of my fellow Christians have been reading.

No, I think it's safe to say that God's Love is "conditional" and has some "strings attached." It's not a free lunch after all.
I agree.


... but you can choose to learn more, which may add additional insights that could turn the web of understanding you have within your mind in other directions. So enough of this implied assertion that "you can do nothing."
I never said or implied that I can do nothing. I have said that I studied further and realized that the evidence does not warrant belief.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I agree.


I never said or implied that I can do nothing. I have said that I studied further and realized that the evidence does not warrant belief.

Ok. I understand. but it would probably be more accurate if you were to say, instead, that with your present epistemological assumptions about 'how' you think knowledge is justified, coupled with what it is you think a person means when he says he has 'truth,' that you then think the evidence, via the way you interpret it all, doesn't warrant belief. Today, you feel Christian belief isn't warranted; but tomorrow could possibly be different, and it might not even require further evidence beyond what you actually have now.

Yes, the above would, I think, be a more appropriate and accurate way to describe your current state of belief or unbelief in relation to Christianity.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Ok. I understand. but it would probably be more accurate if you were to say, instead, that with your present epistemological assumptions about 'how' you think knowledge is justified, coupled with what it is you think a person means when he says he has 'truth,' that you then think the evidence, via the way you interpret it all, doesn't warrant belief. Today, you feel Christian belief isn't warranted; but tomorrow could possibly be different, and it might not even require further evidence beyond what you actually have now.

Yes, the above would, I think, be a more appropriate and accurate way to describe your current state of belief or unbelief in relation to Christianity.
I could be wrong about God but that would either require better evidence or if I lower my standards of evidence.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I could be wrong about God but that would either require better evidence or if I lower my standards of evidence.

...so questioning your views about knowledge, justification, epistemological frameworks, the nature of truth, the limitations of human language, the limitations of science, not to mention the obvious limitations that play an integral part of historical evidences, and so on and so forth, isn't something you think you ALSO need to do on an ongoing basis?
 
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dlamberth

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No, there is no evidence that the energy in the universe is alive.
There may be more going on there than you suppose. That Spark of Life of which we are all a part of came from the very energy that supposedly is not alive. Makes one wonder.
 
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Oncedeceived

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So I have to accept gods love before he will show me he loves me? I will love my kids no matter what they think of me. Christianity seems to promote unconditional love with conditions.
No, you have to recognize God's love and to do that you have to have accepted God's gift of Christ.


[/QuoteThat is fine. The evidence I believed were feelings, bible history, bible prophecy, dreams, scientific and anecdotal. I agree there is evidence for a gods existence. The problem is that my standards of belief were too low. With the standards of evidence that I had I could have believed almost anything. Once I realized my reasons were flawed and my standards of evidence went up I became unconvinced by the evidence I once took as sufficient.

Each person is convinced of something based on sufficient evidence and the standard of evidence they use to evaluate claims. We cannot choose to believe anything.
So you agree that there is evidence of God's existence?

I agree we can't just believe anything, we can believe somethings that we don't know but believe to be so and other things we believe because we know. I know God exists.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No, you have to recognize God's love and to do that you have to have accepted God's gift of Christ.
To do that I need sufficient evidence. I cannot choose to believe God gave a gift of salvation.

So you agree that there is evidence of God's existence?
Yes.

I agree we can't just believe anything, we can believe somethings that we don't know but believe to be so and other things we believe because we know. I know God exists.
We cannot know anything with 100% certainty. Anything we believe we believe with different levels of certainty and different standards of certainty for belief. If you said you had a brother named Fred, I would believe you because my standard of evidence would be lower and my level of certainty would be lower I would need for belief, but the implication of me being wrong is lower as well. My standard of evidence for that claim is lower than the standard of evidence I need for a God to exist.

A God claim is not an ordinary claim. I need better evidence for belief. If you know God exists, fine, can you convince me God exists?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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...so questioning your views about knowledge, justification, epistemological frameworks, the nature of truth, the limitations of human language, the limitations of science, not to mention the obvious limitations that play an integral part of historical evidences, and so on and so forth, isn't something you think you ALSO need to do on an ongoing basis?
Possibly, I still am learning. Do I need to study these to believe a god exists?
 
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cvanwey

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...so questioning your views about knowledge, justification, epistemological frameworks, the nature of truth, the limitations of human language, the limitations of science, not to mention the obvious limitations that play an integral part of historical evidences, and so on and so forth, isn't something you think you ALSO need to do on an ongoing basis?

I thought this was covered a while ago, between us, when you ventured to ask of me the very same thing... And if I remember correctly, my response was something to the affect of...

Do I need to know anything and everything about a claim in particular, before I can effectively rule out this someone's specific claim with confidence? (i.e.)


Example: Someone claims the earth is flat. Now, do I need to know exactly what the shape of the earth is, before I can confidently conclude the earth appears not to be flat? And furthermore, since I do not know if the earth is a perfect sphere, verses egg-shaped, verses a pear-shape, verses another, then I still need to equally keep the 'flat-earth' option on the table?

Or, can I instead rule out that specific claim, and adhere to the surmounting and continuing evidence to the contrary of that specific claim?

As for the Christian God, do we really want to go here? :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Possibly, I still am learning. Do I need to study these to believe a god exists?
What did I tell you the last few times you asked that very same question? :dontcare:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I thought this was covered a while ago, between us, when you ventured to ask of me the very same thing... And if I remember correctly, my response was something to the affect of...

Do I need to know anything and everything about a claim in particular, before I can effectively rule out this someone's specific claim with confidence? (i.e.)


Example: Someone claims the earth is flat. Now, do I need to know exactly what the shape of the earth is, before I can confidently conclude the earth appears not to be flat? And furthermore, since I do not know if the earth is a perfect sphere, verses egg-shaped, verses a pear-shape, verses another, then I still need to equally keep the 'flat-earth' option on the table?

Or, can I instead rule out that specific claim, and adhere to the surmounting and continuing evidence to the contrary of that specific claim?

As for the Christian God, do we really want to go here? :)

As I was telling Clizby, it's your choice as to how far you grapple with various issues of all sizes and imports (all things and ideas NOT being equal) ...........and I wouldn't go there with you ..........until I've gone here: The Paradoxical Lies within your Logic …

:rolleyes:
 
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cvanwey

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As I was telling Clizby, it's your choice as to how far you grapple with various issues of all sizes and imports (all things and ideas NOT being equal) ...........and I wouldn't go there with you ..........until I've gone here: The Paradoxical Lies within your Logic …

:rolleyes:

Welp, I'm not really in the mood to bring out my secret-decoder-pen, at the moment. I'll pass on that request, for now anyways. However, my response was pretty straight forward. If you care not to partake, I guess I understand :)
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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What did I tell you the last few times you asked that very same question? :dontcare:
A lot of stuff but never answered the question sufficiently.

Why do you believe your version of God exists?
 
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Oncedeceived

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To do that I need sufficient evidence. I cannot choose to believe God gave a gift of salvation.
No, but would you really accept anything as evidence He exists?

Such as?

We cannot know anything with 100% certainty.
Anything we believe we believe with different levels of certainty and different standards of certainty for belief. If you said you had a brother named Fred, I would believe you because my standard of evidence would be lower and my level of certainty would be lower I would need for belief, but the implication of me being wrong is lower as well. My standard of evidence for that claim is lower than the standard of evidence I need for a God to exist.

A God claim is not an ordinary claim. I need better evidence for belief. If you know God exists, fine, can you convince me God exists?[/QUOTE]

You can't know that you exist 100%? You can't know where you live 100%? You can't know who your biological mother is 100% (assuming you are not adopted)? Clearly we CAN KNOW somethings 100%. I've been conversing with non-believers for a long long time and one thing that I've found with the majority of them is this; non-believers tend to be fine not knowing why the universe exists rather than not, how the universe came into existence, how life can into existence, why the universe has the appearance of design as well life forms that dwell within it. Design, logic, mathematics and a multitude of other pieces of reality make much more sense with God existing than not? Yet, they prefer to accept not knowing, but they can't be ok with something that makes much more logical sense because it is God.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No, but would you really accept anything as evidence He exists?
Yes, the nature of belief is that no one can choose what they are convince of by the evidence. If a god exists then there must be evidence out there that would convince me and god should know what that evidence is for me.

The claims of Jesus, the claims of the biblical writers, other people that claim to know god exists, feelings, experiences etc.

You can't know that you exist 100%? You can't know where you live 100%? You can't know who your biological mother is 100% (assuming you are not adopted)? Clearly we CAN KNOW somethings 100%.
Have you then solved the problem of hard solipsism? If we both agree that this reality is real and we are both living in this same reality then yes, we can know things 100%.

I've been conversing with non-believers for a long long time and one thing that I've found with the majority of them is this; non-believers tend to be fine not knowing why the universe exists rather than not, how the universe came into existence, how life can into existence, why the universe has the appearance of design as well life forms that dwell within it. Design, logic, mathematics and a multitude of other pieces of reality make much more sense with God existing than not?
That is not a good basis for belief. The best answer also needs to be supported by evidence. Bloodletting to cure diseases to balance our humors was the best answer for 2000 years or so to heal the sick until we actually found good evidence based treatments for diseases through science.

Yet, they prefer to accept not knowing, but they can't be OK with something that makes much more logical sense because it is God.
Nope. I prefer not knowing rather than believing something without sufficient evidence. That is the most honest answer. If the god of the bible exists I want to know.
 
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