Ask God for Me

[Clizby WampusCat]

I was taking your word on what you said. You said you had studied the evidence and found it insufficient. I would assume with that you had actually studied the evidence and found it lacking.

Ok are you asking me what specifically I found insufficient? I gave you one about the teleological argument. Most people do not believe a god through formal arguments. They believe because of life experiences, people they respect believe, were brought up as children to believe, believe the bible is true etc. So why I believe these are insufficient for belief:

Life experiences: Of all the feelings or experiences I have had that convinced me that a god exists in the past I no longer believe they were from God. I can get the same feelings from worship music as I can when listening to secular music, I do not have good evidence that the "supernatural" experiences I had were actually supernatural. How can I now this? I remain in the I don't know camp of these experiences.

People I respect believe: This is a logical fallacy, just because you respect someone does not mean everything they believe is true.

Were brought up as children in faith: This was not me, however, this is no reason to believe anything. People are brought up in all kinds of beliefs it does not make them true.

Believe the bible is true: The contradictions, lack of evidential support for the miracles, we don't know the people who wrote the bible, there is contradictory scientific evidence against some of the stories in the bible such as the flood and exodus etc.

Any argument I have heard so far is lacking. If you have any then let me know. why do you believe god exists?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You were once a Christian, I find it strange for someone who is searching for truth would not look into other religions.

Where did I say this. I actually indicated the opposite when I said I know what Muslims say to convince others their god is real.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I wasn't arguing your pride.

One sentence answers are hard to follow.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is a pretty classic example of cognitive bias where the person has convinced himself that what he's asking others to convince him of is already impossible, meaning that he does not believe that he can be convinced, but rather the effort to convince him is only a pretense.

Where have I ever said this.

Clizby claims to have been a Christian at some point in the past, but even Jesus recognized there were plenty of people saying to him, "Lord, Lord" who did not obey him. What people like this will not do is to try the teachings of Jesus. Instead they make obedience out to be some impossible thing that no one can do; how convenient.

You are so dishonest as I have pointed out in the past. When I was a christian I tried my best to follow Jesus teachings. You just find one thing I may not have done and then disqualify me as a christian so you can sleep at night. This is a fallacy, ever heard of "no true Scotsman"?

This essentially means he's a malcontent; he does not want to obey Jesus, but neither is he prepared to just move on with his life, so he presents himself here on this forum as a guy who's trying to be convinced to perpetuate his disgruntled feelings.

How can an atheist move on with their life in a religious society? People rights are being denied because of religion, people are dying because of religion, people want to teach superstition to my kids in school because of religion, people are being thrown out of their houses because of religion, relationships are being destroyed because of religion. If the religious would just live their lives without forcing their beliefs on others through governmental policy or indoctrination I would move on, but this is not the case.

Believing what is true is important and I want others to believe what is true because I care about them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How can an atheist move on with their life in a religious society? People rights are being denied because of religion, people are dying because of religion, people want to teach superstition to my kids in school because of religion, people are being thrown out of their houses because of religion, relationships are being destroyed because of religion. If the religious would just live their lives without forcing their beliefs on others through governmental policy or indoctrination I would move on, but this is not the case.

Believing what is true is important and I want others to believe what is true because I care about them.

Wouldn't it behoove you, then, to only pick on the Christians who make their own form of faith a political agenda against atheists by pushing Christianity above and beyond just a lifestyle choice?

 

[John Helpher]

How can an atheist move on with their life in a religious society?

Poor clizby; all these religious people just won't let you move on with your life.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Ok are you asking me what specifically I found insufficient? I gave you one about the teleological argument. Most people do not believe a god through formal arguments. They believe because of life experiences, people they respect believe, were brought up as children to believe, believe the bible is true etc. So why I believe these are insufficient for belief:

I think the teleological argument necessarily is a formal argument.

Life experiences: Of all the feelings or experiences I have had that convinced me that a god exists in the past I no longer believe they were from God. I can get the same feelings from worship music as I can when listening to secular music, I do not have good evidence that the "supernatural" experiences I had were actually supernatural. How can I now this? I remain in the I don't know camp of these experiences.

Only you would know.

People I respect believe: This is a logical fallacy, just because you respect someone does not mean everything they believe is true.

I couldn't agree more.

Were brought up as children in faith: This was not me, however, this is no reason to believe anything. People are brought up in all kinds of beliefs it does not make them true.

I totally agree.

Believe the bible is true: The contradictions, lack of evidential support for the miracles, we don't know the people who wrote the bible, there is contradictory scientific evidence against some of the stories in the bible such as the flood and exodus etc.

Christians don't worship the Bible. We don't know any of the people who wrote thousands of years ago. What contradictory scientific evidence for the flood and exodus?

Any argument I have heard so far is lacking. If you have any then let me know. why do you believe god exists?

Well I KNOW God exists. I once didn't know and then God revealed Himself. So there's that. What outside elements that confirm who God is and how I can know He is the Christian God is from the Bible. However, the support of intelligence in the biological life forms on earth as well as the intelligence I discovered through study in Astrophysics and cosmology have reinforced and supported that knowledge. The fact that the Jews still exist, that they are back in their country as a nation provides support to the Bible. The fact that we now have technology (which at the time of the Bible no one could possibly could have foretold) to make sure that there would be a way to make everyone take a mark on hand or forehead to be able to buy, sell or eat. The fact that countries are lining up in a way spoken of in the Bible to fulfill certain prophecies. The fact that Israel is blossoming in the ways the Bible claims they would. There is evidence in so many areas that it is an accumulation of all that provides confirmation of my worldview.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Poor clizby; all these religious people just won't let you move on with your life.

Way to avoid the demonstrable issues with religion.

 

[John Helpher]

Way to avoid the demonstrable issues with religion.

Jesus says, if you want to know if he's real, practice his teachings. You say that this is both impossible and that you've already done so.

You are asking me to do the impossible or lie. Can you believe the moon is made of cheese?

When I was a christian I tried my best to follow Jesus teachings.

On the first issue, no, I don't think you tried to obey Jesus. It's almost certain that what you did was to play church. You asked Jesus into your heart. You attended church services. You read your Bible. Maybe you payed tithes. But none of that is what Jesus told his followers to do.

Most professing Christians don't even know what he taught. For example, Jesus told his followers that they cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other and that our new, full time job is to teach the values of God's kingdom. He said we should not let fear of material things like food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith and that all the world chases after these things, but that we should not be like them.

It's almost certain that not only did you not try this lifestyle, but that you would have argued against it had someone tried to make you aware of it.

On the second issue, you suggest that you only need to be convinced, but then you say that being convinced is comparable to believing the moon is made of cheese. You've deliberately put yourself in an impossible position, boldly declaring that discussion with you about this is comparable to the foolishness of convincing someone the moon is made of cheese. I'm not sure if you're getting it (or how much the rest of us who continue to engage with you are getting it), but you're basically telling us that discussing this issue with you is foolishness. I feel like you've had A LOT of chances and admonishments so I feel good about this being my last post to you on this subject, unless there's some significant change in your attitude.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I think the teleological argument necessarily is a formal argument.

I agree, but when you get down to it most Christians I know do not believe because of the teleological argument.

Christians don't worship the Bible. We don't know any of the people who wrote thousands of years ago.

I never said christains worship the bible.

What contradictory scientific evidence for the flood and exodus?

Here is what a Geologist says about the flood: http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf

As far as the exodus:
The history of Ramses II is well documented but never indicated the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt.

There is no archaeological evidence or other evidence that tens of thousands of people wandered the desert for 40 years 3000-3500 years ago. This account is only in the bible.

Well I KNOW God exists. I once didn't know and then God revealed Himself. So there's that.

Why does he not do this for everyone?

What outside elements that confirm who God is and how I can know He is the Christian God is from the Bible. However, the support of intelligence in the biological life forms on earth as well as the intelligence I discovered through study in Astrophysics and cosmology have reinforced and supported that knowledge. The fact that the Jews still exist, that they are back in their country as a nation provides support to the Bible. The fact that we now have technology (which at the time of the Bible no one could possibly could have foretold) to make sure that there would be a way to make everyone take a mark on hand or forehead to be able to buy, sell or eat. The fact that countries are lining up in a way spoken of in the Bible to fulfill certain prophecies. The fact that Israel is blossoming in the ways the Bible claims they would. There is evidence in so many areas that it is an accumulation of all that provides confirmation of my worldview.

None of which convinced you God exists since the reason you believe God exists is that he revealed himself to you.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Jesus says, if you want to know if he's real, practice his teachings. You say that this is both impossible and that you've already done so.

Wrong again. I said I tried my best to follow his teachings. What is impossible is to follow them perfectly. But you repeatedly misrepresent me and others on this site so no surprise here.

On the first issue, no, I don't think you tried to obey Jesus. It's almost certain that what you did was to play church. You asked Jesus into your heart. You attended church services. You read your Bible. Maybe you payed tithes. But none of that is what Jesus told his followers to do.

Most professing Christians don't even know what he taught. For example, Jesus told his followers that they cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other and that our new, full time job is to teach the values of God's kingdom. He said we should not let fear of material things like food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith and that all the world chases after these things, but that we should not be like them.

It's almost certain that not only did you not try this lifestyle, but that you would have argued against it had someone tried to make you aware of it.

Again you show your lack of good reasoning when you believe things without any evidence.

On the second issue, you suggest that you only need to be convinced, but then you say that being convinced is comparable to believing the moon is made of cheese. You've deliberately put yourself in an impossible position, boldly declaring that discussion with you about this is comparable to the foolishness of convincing someone the moon is made of cheese. I'm not sure if you're getting it (or how much the rest of us who continue to engage with you are getting it), but you're basically telling us that discussing this issue with you is foolishness.

I never said any of this. What I did say is that some people here think we can believe anything. So I responded can you believe the moon is made of cheese? I said nothing about that believing in God was like believing the moon was made of cheese.

I feel like you've had A LOT of chances and admonishments so I feel good about this being my last post to you on this subject, unless there's some significant change in your attitude.

Wonderful!! Thanks.

 

[Kylie]

Because we can not do the work for you. And the work that we would do for you would be a blanket work, encompassing ALL atheists...that they may come to the knowledge of the TRUTH...

So you want us to start our journey to believing in God by... just believing in God?

 

[Kylie]

I am speaking about the information in cells.

My point remains the same.

Yes, I find it unconvincing because intelligence is not the only way for information in cells to come about. And given that existence of what appear to be serious flaws in life forms, I doubt that a great intelligence is responsible.

 

[Kylie]

What is your criteria to determine something is designed over something that was not designed?

I would say that we can reasonably conclude something is designed if:

1. the thing performs a specific purpose
2. all parts of the thing contribute to the performance of that purpose

A soft drink can meets this. The can performs a specific purpose: it's holds the drink in a way that keeps it easily identifiable and safe to consume. There are no parts of the can that do not contribute to this purpose.

 

[Kylie]

The way to know if these teachings really are from God is to obey them. John 7:17

And what exactly are these teachings?

 

[John Helpher]

And what exactly are these teachings?

I've already gone into detail, several times, regarding a really important one. You even commented on it a few times. Can you remember what it was?

 

[Kylie]

I've already gone into detail, several times, regarding a really important one. You even commented on it a few times. Can you remember what it was?

Sorry, I'm not up to searching through 750+ posts in this thread. Could you tell me again please? A bullet point list or something?

 

[Oncedeceived]

My point remains the same.

Yes, I find it unconvincing because intelligence is not the only way for information in cells to come about. And given that existence of what appear to be serious flaws in life forms, I doubt that a great intelligence is responsible.

What is the way information can come about.

 

[John Helpher]

Sorry, I'm not up to searching through 750+ posts in this thread. Could you tell me again please? A bullet point list or something?

Try to remember. What was a teaching of Jesus that I mentioned several times? You even commented on it several times. I think, if you take some time to sit still, clear your mind, and then think back over our exchanges, it will come to you.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I agree, but when you get down to it most Christians I know do not believe because of the teleological argument.

I think it is supportive.

I never said christains worship the bible.

It sounded like it.

Here is what a Geologist says about the flood: http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf

Here is something: Was there really a great flood?

As far as the exodus:
The history of Ramses II is well documented but never indicated the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt.

There is no archaeological evidence or other evidence that tens of thousands of people wandered the desert for 40 years 3000-3500 years ago. This account is only in the bible.

I haven't watched this yet, just read this a couple of weeks ago: Evidence for the Exodus - Evidences of the Bible

Why does he not do this for everyone?

I think He does to those who chose to believe. He didn't reveal Himself until I had went through many different issues of faith. I also think some just are content and don't need that confirmation perhaps.

None of which convinced you God exists since the reason you believe God exists is that he revealed himself to you.

No, I believed before He revealed Himself to me.