Ask God for Me

[Clizby WampusCat]

I wonder if anyone here who can talk to God in prayer would ask God what they could say to me to convince me He exists and post it here if they get an answer.

 

[Sabertooth]

Why don't you ask Him to make Himself real to you?

• If He answers, you will be more prepared to hear Him.
  
• If no One is there, you won't have lost anything.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Why don't you ask Him to make Himself real to you?

• If He answers, you will be more prepared to hear Him.
  
• If no One is there, you won't have lost anything.

I have done this many times when I was a christian. I begged with tears for god to show me he is real. I guess God wanted me to be an atheist becasue he never revealed himself in a concrete way to me in 18 years of being a christian.

 

[Sabertooth]

Tell me about how you became a Christian.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Tell me about how you became a Christian.

No. Either believe I was or not. All you want to do is find some reason why I was not a "real" Christian so you don't have to deal with the problem of divine hiddenness.

Will you ask God to tell you what to say to me to convince me He exists?

 

[Sabertooth]

All you want to do is find some reason why I was not a "real" Christian...

Wouldn't that be the objective approach? If you are happy with your current approach, stay with it (until you are no longer happy with it).

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Wouldn't that be the objective approach? If you are happy with your current approach, stay with it (until you are no longer happy with it).

I was a christian. Believe it or not.

Will you ask God to tell you what to tell me to convince me He exists?

 

[Sabertooth]

I was a christian. Believe it or not.

I am a Christian who is aware of God from time-to-time. If you want something similar to what I have, you will have to take a different approach. If you have any mental illnesses, get them checked out, too.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I wonder if anyone here who can talk to God in prayer would ask God what they could say to me to convince me He exists and post it here if they get an answer.

I have done this many times when I was a christian. I begged with tears for god to show me he is real. I guess God wanted me to be an atheist becasue he never revealed himself in a concrete way to me in 18 years of being a christian.

To be fair, if God did 'show himself' to you in a concrete way, as you put it, how can you be sure it was really God? What if it was a hallucination, or perhaps a coincidence? Maybe someone is pulling a prank on you?

You should really stop to consider how would a real, honest-to-goodness God show himself to a human, and what the emotional and possible physical ramifications would be. Sure, people in the past had divine revelations from God, but perhaps they were more accustomed to it as in the olden biblical days spiritual intervention was considered a 'norm'--something that happened since the beginning of humankind. Nowadays, that kind of divine intervention is the stuff of mythos; I wonder if we could even psychologically handle such a startling event, personally.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I was a christian. Believe it or not.

Will you ask God to tell you what to tell me to convince me He exists?

You might want to consider how many instances of this kind of thing you actually find in the New Testament ... and for whom it was provided. Just say'n, Clizby. Besides, it's not like none of us have done the same thing you've done, asking God for some sure-fire evidence of His existence and/or favor, and received none of that kind of thing.

What was it Jesus told Doubting Thomas? Do you remember?
From the Doubting Thomas passage, I rather interpret that whole narrative to infer to the fact that God doesn't want to rely on substantial empirical evidences to buttress the belief of each and every person who wants to follow Him. No, it seems that God, in Christ, and through the Holy Spirit, will help you eventually realize a somewhat rational way to approach Christ in Faith, with the help of His Church, and with "rational" here definitely NOT requiring direct, empirical verification (e.g. Descartes, and even much more so, Pascal).

Of course, this doesn't mean I won't pray for you to somehow be illuminated in your understanding ...

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

To be fair, if God did 'show himself' to you in a concrete way, as you put it, how can you be sure it was really God? What if it was a hallucination, or perhaps a coincidence? Maybe someone is pulling a prank on you?

I think God could figure that out. Can't God know what would convince me He exists?

You should really stop to consider how would a real, honest-to-goodness God show himself to a human, and what the emotional and possible physical ramifications would be. Sure, people in the past had divine revelations from God, but perhaps they were more accustomed to it as in the olden biblical days spiritual intervention was considered a 'norm'--something that happened since the beginning of humankind. Nowadays, that kind of divine intervention is the stuff of mythos; I wonder if we could even psychologically handle such a startling event, personally.

I am not asking for God to show himself.

Surely God knows what I would take as sufficient evidence to believe. Why are you convinced He exists?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You might want to consider how many instances of this kind of thing you actually find in the New Testament ... and for whom it was provided. Just say'n, Clizby. Besides, it's not like none of us have done the same thing you've done, asking God for some sure-fire evidence of His existence and/or favor, and received none of that kind of thing.

What was it Jesus told Doubting Thomas? Do you remember?
From the Doubting Thomas passage, I rather interpret that whole narrative to infer that God doesn't want to rely on substantial empirical evidences to buttress the belief of each and every person who wants to follow Him. No, it seems that God, in Christ, and through the Holy Spirit, will help you eventually realize a somewhat rational way to approach Christ in Faith, with the help of His Church, and with "rational" here definitely NOT requiring direct, empirical verification (e.g. Descartes, and even much more so, Pascal).

Of course, this doesn't mean I won't pray for you to somehow be illuminated in your understanding ...

Ok

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I think God could figure that out. Can't God know what would convince me He exists?

Yes, assuming there IS a way to convince you. It's also entirely possible that you've already in the back of your mind decided that you cannot possibly believe in God, and are trying to find something that will change your mind--despite no such thing existing.

I am not asking for God to show himself.

When you ask for proof of God, you are in essence asking him to reveal himself--since anything but some kind of spiritual intervention would likely not satisfy you. I don't necessarily mean a giant holy spirit crashing into your house in a blinding light with angel horns.

Surely God knows what I would take as sufficient evidence to believe.

Refer to my previous points.

Why are you convinced He exists?

There's a long combination of reasons I feel that way. For one, I have had many strange interactions with God; so many that to label it all a 'coincidence' would place me in such a low margin of probability that it shouldn't have even happened. Or there's the fact that we now know that Jesus did in fact exist and was executed by Pontius Pilate. There's the interesting history of religion itself that intrigues me, along with testimonies referring to practices in the occult or spiritual divination. There's the rich history behind chrisitianity and judaism that never seems to reach the light of day, filled with so many things that form a bigger picture about God and monotheism's effect on humanity; and, lastly, there's naturalism. The idea that according to the natural laws of the world, no matter how you dice it, we exist only to survive, breed, and create generation after generation; if forming social bonds gets the job done, so be it. If murder or atrocities is more fitting, then it's done. Acting only on what evolution has gifted us with and a cocktail of chemicals in our bodies that give us 'emotions'. That at the end of the day, anything done for the sake of the pursuit of happiness or altruism is an illusion meant to create meaning past what nature has already decided for us.

Those are, of course, just a few.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yes, assuming there IS a way to convince you. It's also entirely possible that you've already in the back of your mind decided that you cannot possibly believe in God, and are trying to find something that will change your mind--despite no such thing existing.

No one gets to choose their beliefs. We believe things because we are convinced by evidence. That evidence can be bad or good evidence. If He exists, then there should be sufficient evidence to convince me he exists and God should know what that evidence is.

When you ask for proof of God, you are in essence asking him to reveal himself--since anything but some kind of spiritual intervention would likely not satisfy you. I don't necessarily mean a giant holy spirit crashing into your house in a blinding light with angel horns.

Ok, He revealed himself to Paul. Was He playing favorites?

There's a long combination of reasons I feel that way. For one, I have had many strange interactions with God; so many that to label it all a 'coincidence' would place me in such a low margin of probability that it shouldn't have even happened.

Do you have examples? And have you calculated the probability of these coincidences?

Or there's the fact that we now know that Jesus did in fact exist and was executed by Pontius Pilate.

How is this evidence Jesus was God or that God exists?

There's the interesting history of religion itself that intrigues me, along with testimonies referring to practices in the occult or spiritual divination. There's the rich history behind chrisitianity and judaism that never seems to reach the light of day, filled with so many things that form a bigger picture about God and monotheism's effect on humanity;

These are just unsubstantiated stories. Do you have any that can be verified?

and, lastly, there's naturalism. The idea that according to the natural laws of the world, no matter how you dice it, we exist only to survive, breed, and create generation after generation; if forming social bonds gets the job done, so be it. If murder or atrocities is more fitting, then it's done. Acting only on what evolution has gifted us with and a cocktail of chemicals in our bodies that give us 'emotions'. That at the end of the day, anything done for the sake of the pursuit of happiness or altruism is an illusion meant to create meaning past what nature has already decided for us.

Just becasue you don't like the reality if God does not exist is not evidence that God does exist.

I disagree with your assessment of what life is like without a God.

 

[Tolworth John]

I wonder if anyone here who can talk to God in prayer would ask God what they could say to me to convince me He exists and post it here if they get an answer.

What evidence do you have that there isn't a God?

Science says the universe began at the big band. So what caused the big bang?

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

No one gets to choose their beliefs. We believe things because we are convinced by evidence. That evidence can be bad or good evidence. If He exists, then there should be sufficient evidence to convince me he exists and God should know what that evidence is.

I have to disagree. The vast majority of peoples' beliefs are shaped on the era, culture/society, their upbringing and, to an extent, their personality. Sure, there are some who's beliefs are shaped by 'evidence'--but I'd hardly call them the majority, as what qualifies as evidence is going to vary from person to person, and depending on what is being argued.

Ok, He revealed himself to Paul. Was He playing favorites?

Kindly refer back to my comments about how back in those days supernatural interventions were more of a 'norm' than they are now--and how people back then were likely much more spiritually able to deal with such experiences.

Do you have examples? And have you calculated the probability of these coincidences?

I have indeed. Though you only asked me why I believe; I want to keep this conversation focused on you, not me. There's always time later when I can discuss my experiences more in-depth.

These are just unsubstantiated stories. Do you have any that can be verified?

First off, these;

There's the interesting history of religion itself that intrigues me, along with testimonies referring to practices in the occult or spiritual divination. There's the rich history behind chrisitianity and judaism that never seems to reach the light of day, filled with so many things that form a bigger picture about God and monotheism's effect on humanity;

Were separate points. The history behind Christianity and Judaism that I was referring to did not have to do with testimonies or spiritual divination. I was talking about the extremely old orthodox views nobody ever talks about, versus the modern 'evangelical christian' view.

Second, the stories are only unsubstantiated because you don't believe there is any evidence for their basis being true. I'm sure if someone from the 1800's heard a person describe a smartphone, they'd say the same thing. The point you should be looking at here, is that SOMETHING has occurred to lead people into believing that what they experienced really happened; that's what you should be trying to figure out.

Though to be honest, both my significant other and I have both had very close people in our lives that have experienced things that no science I know of right now could give a full explanation for without taking some liberties in doing so.

Just becasue you don't like the reality if God does not exist is not evidence that God does exist.

I think it's a little generous to call naturalism--a philosophy--reality. The reason why naturalism is a philosophy and not a fact is that science does not make absolute claims; everything we know about the universe, our world and how it works is as good as we can observe and learn about them. Anything can change at the drop of a hat. There is no 'truth' in science, only empirical evidence and logic...neither of which are infallible.

I disagree with your assessment of what life is like without a God.

That's because you assumed I was making an assessment of what life is like without God--trust me, I wasn't. I know almost all atheists will live on just fine without religion in their lives. I was describing the harsh reality of naturalism, which oddly both ends and begins in nihilism. I bring up naturalism since it would appear that a good majority of new atheists seem to adhere to the 'pros' of naturalism(that everything in the world is governed by natural laws and forces, leaving no room for anything outside of the scope set)--and yet, do not accept the cons of naturalism that I listed.

A good example is morality; there is no such thing as absolute morality. If I said I wanted to kill someone, you would tell me

'no, that's wrong'.

I would ask 'why is it wrong?'

to which the reply would be either 'because it's a human life with value(or some variant of this idea)'
or 'because it is illegal'

Well, something being illegal doesn't make that thing amoral--as it would cease to have any legal repercussions the moment I stepped out of whatever country or general area it was proclaimed illegal in. And as for the first response, I could very well say 'why should I care about another human life?'. You could call me a horrible person, but that would still be your subjective view on it; murder is a totally normal aspect of nature, so you have no basis to tell me that it's 'immoral' other than what you've been brought up to believe mixed with a natural-born instinct to survive(my being a murderer could, after all, affect your life or the life of those you find significant). Even if we evolved specifically to NOT murder each other(for the benefits of surviving)--that doesn't make it immoral either, at that point it's simply counterproductive and there's no great plan I'm impeding, seeing as the world won't end over another lost species.


You'll find that in naturalist ways of thinking, morality is, for the most part, a social construct to maintain order. It is fragile, and hard to back up outside of 'because it's bad'.

Of course you won't have to care about any of this, atheist or not; the world is comprised of societies that have largely based their ethics on either religious beliefs or oddly spiritual philosophies, whether to keep civilizations together or to trigger a good rush of dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin and endorphins. You've already been birthed into a time and place where your meaning and path has largely been constructed for you, all you have to do is follow along and pick the specifics.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What evidence do you have that there isn't a God?

I don't need any. I am not claiming God does not exist, I just don't believe He does based on the evidence so far.

Science says the universe began at the big band. So what caused the big bang?

I don't know.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I have to disagree. The vast majority of peoples' beliefs are shaped on the era, culture/society, their upbringing and, to an extent, their personality. Sure, there are some who's beliefs are shaped by 'evidence'--but I'd hardly call them the majority, as what qualifies as evidence is going to vary from person to person, and depending on what is being argued.

I agree, and they are convinced of their beliefs becasue of this. Most people, including myself, believe things with bad evidence. Pick one thing that you are convinced is true or most likely true and try to believe it is not true.

Kindly refer back to my comments about how back in those days supernatural interventions were more of a 'norm' than they are now--and how people back then were likely much more spiritually able to deal with such experiences.

There is no good evidence that a supernatural event ever happened.

I have indeed. Though you only asked me why I believe; I want to keep this conversation focused on you, not me. There's always time later when I can discuss my experiences more in-depth.

So you calculated the probabilities of coincidences in your life. I don't think you can do that with any reasonable certainty.

First off, these;

There's the interesting history of religion itself that intrigues me, along with testimonies referring to practices in the occult or spiritual divination. There's the rich history behind chrisitianity and judaism that never seems to reach the light of day, filled with so many things that form a bigger picture about God and monotheism's effect on humanity;

Were separate points. The history behind Christianity and Judaism that I was referring to did not have to do with testimonies or spiritual divination. I was talking about the extremely old orthodox views nobody ever talks about, versus the modern 'evangelical christian' view.

How are these stories evidence for the existence of a God?

Second, the stories are only unsubstantiated because you don't believe there is any evidence for their basis being true. I'm sure if someone from the 1800's heard a person describe a smartphone, they'd say the same thing. The point you should be looking at here, is that SOMETHING has occurred to lead people into believing that what they experienced really happened; that's what you should be trying to figure out.

Yes, and all I have ever heard from any believer are bad reasons for belief. When I was a believer I was convinced it was true by bad evidence.

Though to be honest, both my significant other and I have both had very close people in our lives that have experienced things that no science I know of right now could give a full explanation for without taking some liberties in doing so.

I believe you had experiences that you cannot explain. I have had these as well. As soon as these can be substantiated to be supernatural is when to believe that they were supernatural.

I think it's a little generous to call naturalism--a

philosophy--reality. The reason why naturalism is a philosophy and not a fact is that science does not make absolute claims; everything we know about the universe, our world and how it works is as good as we can observe and learn about them. Anything can change at the drop of a hat. There is no 'truth' in science, only empirical evidence and logic...neither of which are infallible.

Ok, I agree that we cannot know anything with 100% certainty. However, we can know things with a high level of certainty. Everything we have a high level of certainty about (everyday language we call this truth) came from science and not religion.

That's because you assumed I was making an assessment of what life is like without God--trust me, I wasn't. I know almost all atheists will live on just fine without religion in their lives. I was describing the harsh reality of naturalism, which oddly both ends and begins in nihilism. I bring up naturalism since it would appear that a good majority of new atheists seem to adhere to the 'pros' of naturalism(that everything in the world is governed by natural laws and forces, leaving no room for anything outside of the scope set)--and yet, do not accept the cons of naturalism that I listed.

There is no adhering to anything. All the evidence points to naturalism. I don't get why this is relevant to the discussion about if a god exists?

A good example is morality; there is no such thing as absolute morality. If I said I wanted to kill someone, you would tell me

'no, that's wrong'.

I would ask 'why is it wrong?'

to which the reply would be either 'because it's a human life with value(or some variant of this idea)'
or 'because it is illegal'

Well, something being illegal doesn't make that thing amoral--as it would cease to have any legal repercussions the moment I stepped out of whatever country or general area it was proclaimed illegal in. And as for the first response, I could very well say 'why should I care about another human life?'. You could call me a horrible person, but that would still be your subjective view on it; murder is a totally normal aspect of nature, so you have no basis to tell me that it's 'immoral' other than what you've been brought up to believe mixed with a natural-born instinct to survive(my being a murderer could, after all, affect your life or the life of those you find significant). Even if we evolved specifically to NOT murder each other(for the benefits of surviving)--that doesn't make it immoral either, at that point it's simply counterproductive and there's no great plan I'm impeding, seeing as the world won't end over another lost species.


You'll find that in naturalist ways of thinking, morality is, for the most part, a social construct to maintain order. It is fragile, and hard to back up outside of 'because it's bad'.

This is not really how I see morality, however I agree there is no absolute/ultimate objective morality. How does this relate to if a god exists?

Of course you won't have to care about any of this, atheist or not; the world is comprised of societies that have largely based their ethics on either religious beliefs or oddly spiritual philosophies, whether to keep civilizations together or to trigger a good rush of dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin and endorphins. You've already been birthed into a time and place where your meaning and path has largely been constructed for you, all you have to do is follow along and pick the specifics.

So what is your evidence that a god exists? That a lot of people believe one does?

 

[Tolworth John]

I don't need any. I am not claiming God does not exist, I just don't believe He does based on the evidence so far.

I don't know.

So it is plausible that something caused the big bang, something we call God.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So it is plausible that something caused the big bang, something we call God.

Call it what you want. But something that cannot be shown to exist cannot be an explanation for something. God is not a plausible explanation becasue God has not been shown to exist.

I don't know what started the universe and many scientists don't believe we can ever know, we will see. But that does not then default to a god started it.