Ask God for Me

[SPF]

I have done this many times when I was a christian. I begged with tears for god to show me he is real. I guess God wanted me to be an atheist becasue he never revealed himself in a concrete way to me in 18 years of being a christian.

I find this statement interesting. So for 18 years of being a Christian, God never once revealed Himself to you? What exactly caused you to become a Christian in the first place if God had not revealed Himself to you? You're very big into thinking that you have no free will and that all your beliefs are determined by evidence and you are forced into believing everything you do.

If that's the case, then what was it during those 18 years of God not revealing Himself that was forcing you to believe that God was real?

I believe you had experiences that you cannot explain. I have had these as well. As soon as these can be substantiated to be supernatural is when to believe that they were supernatural.

What experiences have you had that you can't explain? Can you even give one example?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I find this statement interesting. So for 18 years of being a Christian, God never once revealed Himself to you? What exactly caused you to become a Christian in the first place if God had not revealed Himself to you?

I thought God had reveled himself to me at the time. I was convinced with bad evidence.

You're very big into thinking that you have no free will and that all your beliefs are determined by evidence and you are forced into believing everything you do. If that's the case, then what was it during those 18 years of God not revealing Himself that was forcing you to believe that God was real?

I was convinced by bad evidence that God was real. That bad evidence included feelings, apologist arguments, unexplained experiences, dreams, accepting what preachers said without questioning it too much.

Apologists arguments were a large influence on me. When I "investigated" Christianity when I was in my early twenties I only looked at Christian sources. My thought at that time was that if I wanted to know if Christianity was true I should listen to Christians. I never thought to see what non theists arguments were. It was really when I learned how to determine truth in a logical way did I realize my reasons were unsound and I became unconvinced that a God exists.

What experiences have you had that you can't explain? Can you even give one example?

I will give two.

When I was about 10, my sister screamed in the middle of the night. I was the first to her room and I saw a blue head floating over her bedside table. When my parents got there the head was no longer there. About 20 years later I was talking with my sister and I brought this up. I assumed at the time she was screaming becasue of the floating head. I was wrong, she never saw it and she screamed becasue she had a bad dream. I don't know what I actually saw or if I saw anything, but I have no good reason to believe it was supernatural.

When my daughter was 4 she used to say that a "friend" was with her a lot named Osiris. One night my wife and I were in her room putting her to bed and she said Osiris was standing next to her door. I asked what he looked like and she described kind of a dwarf like person with horns. I could not see anything but I "felt" like it was there. I was actually scared that it was a demon or something. My wife and I prayed and my daughter said it was gone. We never heard about Osiris again. At the time I was convinced by my experience and my christian belief that it was a demon or something like that. However, now I realize I have no good reason to believe anything was actually there.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I thought God had reveled himself to me at the time. I was convinced with bad evidence.

I was convinced by bad evidence that God was real. That bad evidence included feelings, apologist arguments, unexplained experiences, dreams, accepting what preachers said without questioning it too much.

Apologists arguments were a large influence on me. When I "investigated" Christianity when I was in my early twenties I only looked at Christian sources. My thought at that time was that if I wanted to know if Christianity was true I should listen to Christians. I never thought to see what non theists arguments were. It was really when I learned how to determine truth in a logical way did I realize my reasons were unsound and I became unconvinced that a God exists.

I will give two.

When I was about 10, my sister screamed in the middle of the night. I was the first to her room and I saw a blue head floating over her bedside table. When my parents got there the head was no longer there. About 20 years later I was talking with my sister and I brought this up. I assumed at the time she was screaming becasue of the floating head. I was wrong, she never saw it and she screamed becasue she had a bad dream. I don't know what I actually saw or if I saw anything, but I have no good reason to believe it was supernatural.

When my daughter was 4 she used to say that a "friend" was with her a lot named Osiris. One night my wife and I were in her room putting her to bed and she said Osiris was standing next to her door. I asked what he looked like and she described kind of a dwarf like person with horns. I could not see anything but I "felt" like it was there. I was actually scared that it was a demon or something. My wife and I prayed and my daughter said it was gone. We never heard about Osiris again. At the time I was convinced by my experience and my christian belief that it was a demon or something like that. However, now I realize I have no good reason to believe anything was actually there.

So....did 'Osiris' ever reassemble and reappear after that little prayer incident?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So....did 'Osiris' ever reassemble and reappear after that little prayer incidence?

No.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No.

And you don't see that as an evidence of what Jesus said about removing demonically laced "mountains"?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

And you don't see that as an evidence of what Jesus said about removing demonically laced "mountains"?

It is bad evidence for the existence of a God, especially a specific God. Do you think this is convincing evidence that Christianity is true?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It is bad evidence for the existence of a God, especially a specific God. Do you think this is convincing evidence that Christianity is true?

For me, and all things considered, all things epistemic that is, it isn't a question of whether or not this provides some bit of evidence that provides an irresistible force of conviction. Why? Because being compelled by evidence for the Christian Faith (and for a lot of things I might add) shouldn't be based on some singular piece of 'stuff,' whether it's a singular experience or some singular 'fact' that is then assessed in a direct, lock-step axiomatic way.

 

[SPF]

I was convinced by bad evidence that God was real. That bad evidence included feelings, apologist arguments, unexplained experiences, dreams, accepting what preachers said without questioning it too much.

So you acknowledge that you didn't have an actual, real, personal relationship with God in which you prayed, felt led, guided by him, convicted of sin, or affirmed by Him through good or bad times?

I never thought to see what non theists arguments were. It was really when I learned how to determine truth in a logical way did I realize my reasons were unsound and I became unconvinced that a God exists.

That's interesting because there are lots of people with actual degrees that are much much more educated than you are that have come to the exact opposite conclusion. Why do you think that is? What do you know that they're missing?

I don't know what I actually saw or if I saw anything, but I have no good reason to believe it was supernatural.

Unless God exists, then you have every reason to believe that it was supernatural. That, and you claim to have actually seen it. You don't have a natural explanation for what you saw. That is reason to believe it may have been supernatural.

My wife and I prayed and my daughter said it was gone. We never heard about Osiris again. At the time I was convinced by my experience and my christian belief that it was a demon or something like that. However, now I realize I have no good reason to believe anything was actually there.

You only believe you have no good reason because you now no longer believe God exists. If God does exist, then a perfectly valid, rational explanation would be that it was a real experience.

You don't like when people question the genuineness of your previous faith. Yet, you admit to having a faith built upon bad evidence, with a very shallow belief system in which you did not critically study. You admit to spending 18 years asking God to reveal Himself and claiming that He never once revealed Himself to you in 18 years.

I've gone through my share of doubting experiences. I mentioned in a previous topic that magically got deleted after I posted that I've lost a child, I almost lost my wife, and as a foster parent, my wife and I have seen first hand just how terrible people can be treated.

Yet, I know that God is real. I've spent time overseas where I've seen things that most Americans would be left in utter bewilderment over. Satan is very specific and strategic in how he attacks us. For most Americans, he's done a great job at pretending like he doesn't exist.

He tries to downplay everything spiritual to the point where people are nothing short of foolish to even think the supernatural exists. God isn't real. He doesn't answer prayers, science can account for everything, supernatural experiences are made up in our heads. You've convinced that the two inexplicable events in your life are made up because you've convinced yourself God can't exist.

Honestly, go to India, go to South Africa. You'll see stuff that you can't explain. Satan attacks people differently there. They don't deny the supernatural like Americans do. Satan is just cunning in a different way and uses the supernatural to support things other than Christianity.

But for me, because I've seen with my own eyes, and experienced with my own body things that cannot be naturally explained, it's very hard to doubt that God exists. That, coupled with the fact that I do experience Him on a daily basis (which it doesn't sound like you ever did) that I can't say He doesn't exist.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

For me, and all things considered, all things epistemic that is, it isn't a question of whether or not this provides some bit of evidence that provides an irresistible force of conviction. Why? Because being compelled by evidence for the Christian Faith (and for a lot of things I might add) shouldn't be based on some singular piece of 'stuff,' whether a singular experience or some singular 'fact' in a direct, lock-step axiomatic way.

I agree.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree.

But then again, I'm not saying that your prayer incident doesn't fall in line with the pattern of meaning expressed by Jesus [because, I think it does, actually]; I'm also not saying that it should count for simply nuth'n!

 

[NBB]

You should ask Jesus that he becomes your saviour but ask believing he is alive,
The bible says: what should we do to be saved?, believe in the lord Jesus and you will be saved...

And that to receive something from God we need to believe he exists and he rewards those who seek him.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So it is plausible that something caused the big bang, something we call God.

It depends on what you mean by "cause." As we understand it, there could not possibly have been a cause. A cause must precede an effect. If the Big Bang is the first moment of time, then nothing preceded it. Therefore, there was no cause.

I understand that the universe is far more strange and complex than we could ever hope to understand. There may be some other kind of "different causality" involved. But there absolutely is no way that there was a cause for the universe as we currently understand the word.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It depends on what you mean by "cause." As we understand it, there could not possibly have been a cause. A cause must precede an effect. If the Big Bang is the first moment of time, then nothing preceded it. Therefore, there was no cause.

I understand that the universe is far more strange and complex than we could ever hope to understand. There may be some other kind of "different causality" involved. But there absolutely is no way that there was a cause for the universe as we currently understand the word.

And that's the trick here, isn't it? It all depends on 'how' we understand it (i.e. causality). Hence, we can go one of a few directions with that and--the funny thing is--we can each count ourselves as being 'rational when doing so. I mean, no one HAS to come down on the side of this with Lawrence Krauss, when one could instead go the way of a Frank Close, or some other voice from some other epistemic quadrant, like Aristotle or ... Lee Strobel, or Ken H**.....well, I'll stop there without finishing. You get the point!

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So you acknowledge that you didn't have an actual, real, personal relationship with God in which you prayed, felt led, guided by him, convicted of sin, or affirmed by Him through good or bad times?

No I don't acknowledge that at all. I was convinced I did for the same reasons a lot of Christians do. I feel like he guided me, gave me wisdom to understand the bible, I was convicted of my sin and begged for forgiveness which I believed I received. I believed I received guidance in prayer etc.

That's interesting because there are lots of people with actual degrees that are much much more educated than you are that have come to the exact opposite conclusion. Why do you think that is? What do you know that they're missing?

So what. There are many people more educated than me that have come to the same conclusion. I don't believe because I am no longer convinced by the evidence.

Unless God exists, then you have every reason to believe that it was supernatural. That, and you claim to have actually seen it. You don't have a natural explanation for what you saw. That is reason to believe it may have been supernatural.

No, that is a logical fallacy. Just becasue I don't know of a natural reason is not evidence that it was supernatural.

You only believe you have no good reason because you now no longer believe God exists.

No, stop telling me what I believe please. I have no good reason becasue the evidence does not support a supernatural conclusion. I am not saying that it was not supernatural.

If God does exist, then a perfectly valid, rational explanation would be that it was a real experience.

Not really. If a God exists how would I know that it was supernatural?

You don't like when people question the genuineness of your previous faith. Yet, you admit to having a faith built upon bad evidence, with a very shallow belief system in which you did not critically study.

This is not what I said. I studied a lot but only Christian arguments. When I did study epistemology and anti theist arguments I became unconvinced by better logic and epistemology.

I've gone through my share of doubting experiences. I mentioned in a previous topic that magically got deleted after I posted that I've lost a child, I almost lost my wife, and as a foster parent, my wife and I have seen first hand just how terrible people can be treated.

Sorry to hear that.

Yet, I know that God is real.

Why?

I've spent time overseas where I've seen things that most Americans would be left in utter bewilderment over. Satan is very specific and strategic in how he attacks us. For most Americans, he's done a great job at pretending like he doesn't exist.

Why do you believe these things are supernatural and why do they give evidence for a christain God?

He tries to downplay everything spiritual to the point where people are nothing short of foolish to even think the supernatural exists. God isn't real. He doesn't answer prayers, science can account for everything, supernatural experiences are made up in our heads. You've convinced that the two inexplicable events in your life are made up because you've convinced yourself God can't exist.

No!!!!! I never said they were made up. You have a bad habit of putting words in other people mouths. I don't have an answer for these two experiences, they did happen. There is no reason to conclude that they were because a God exists.

ALSO, I have never said in this forum that God does not or cannot exist. Stop saying that I have.!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly, go to India, go to South Africa. You'll see stuff that you can't explain. Satan attacks people differently there. They don't deny the supernatural like Americans do. Satan is just cunning in a different way and uses the supernatural to support things other than Christianity.

But for me, because I've seen with my own eyes, and experienced with my own body things that cannot be naturally explained, it's very hard to doubt that God exists.

Why the Christian God?

That, coupled with the fact that I do experience Him on a daily basis (which it doesn't sound like you ever did) that I can't say He doesn't exist.

Again, I have never said God does not exist. I know you need for my experience to be explained away so you can maintain your belief (how does that feel to have words put into your mouth?). But, I know I was a christian so your denial of my experience only gives evidence to me that your theology is wrong.

 

[Tolworth John]

Call it what you want. But something that cannot be shown to exist cannot be an explanation for something. God is not a plausible explanation becasue God has not been shown to exist.

I don't know what started the universe and many scientists don't believe we can ever know, we will see. But that does not then default to a god started it.

You do not know what caused everything to be, yet you reject out of hand a possible explanation.

You say God cannot be shown to exist, if by that you mean demonstrable and repeatable evidence then yes God cannot be shown to either exist or not to exist.

There are however the evidence of the cause, the complexity of the universe, the moral question as well as the live, death and resurrection of Jesus.

It is not good enough to say God has not been demonstrated to exist, but accurate to say you do not accept the evidence that God exist .

 

[Nihilist Virus]

And that's the trick here, isn't it? It all depends on 'how' we understand it (i.e. causality). Hence, we can go one of a few directions with that and--the funny thing is--we can each count ourselves as being 'rational when doing so. I mean, no one HAS to come down on the side of this with Lawrence Krauss, when one could instead go the way of a Frank Close, or some other voice from some other epistemic quadrant, like Aristotle or ... Lee Strobel, or Ken H**.....well, I'll stop there without finishing. You get the point!

No. It doesn't matter how we understand it. That won't change the fact that causality fails to exist in a state of reality wherein time does not exist. If there's some other causality that exists, or some extra dimension of time enveloping our own dimension of time, then there could be a cause of the Big Bang. Until either of those scenarios is indicated by science, it's illogical and ignorant to assert that there was a cause for the Big Bang.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You do not know what caused everything to be, yet you reject out of hand a possible explanation.

No, I don't reject out of hand a possible explanation. I reject the evidence for that explanation as sufficient for belief.

You say God cannot be shown to exist, if by that you mean demonstrable and repeatable evidence then yes God cannot be shown to either exist or not to exist.

I don't think I said cannot be shown to exist, that is an unsupportable claim. I have not seen sufficient evidence to believe he does exist.

There are however the evidence of the cause, the complexity of the universe, the moral question as well as the live, death and resurrection of Jesus.

None of which is sufficient evidence to believe a God exists.

Cause evidence, show me evidence a God was the cause, until then I don't know the cause.

Complexity - How is this evidence for a God? The universe is actually chaotic, not well designed. Simplicity is the hallmark of design not complexity.

Moral Question - How is this evidence for a God?

Resurrection - Show me sufficient evidence that Jesus as described in the Bible was resurrected.

It is not good enough to say God has not been demonstrated to exist, but accurate to say you do not accept the evidence that God exist .

I agree. I do not accept all evidences I have studied as sufficient for belief. Do you have this evidence? Why do you believe?

 

[Ed1wolf]

I have done this many times when I was a christian. I begged with tears for god to show me he is real. I guess God wanted me to be an atheist becasue he never revealed himself in a concrete way to me in 18 years of being a christian.

What is your definition of a concrete way?

 

[Tinker Grey]

What is your definition of a concrete way?

Does your god know?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What is your definition of a concrete way?

I mean sufficient evidence for me to be convinced he exists.