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Ask an Ex-Theist anything!
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Do you think satire was correct that knowledge of ones own freedom brings despair?
I ask because from his perspective (atheist existentilism) we define ourselves by what limitations we put on ourselves in the face of absolute freedom. when you deconverted did it feel as if you lost a part of yourself because you lost some of the self imposed limitations that serving God requires?
I ask because from his perspective (atheist existentilism) we define ourselves by what limitations we put on ourselves in the face of absolute freedom. when you deconverted did it feel as if you lost a part of yourself because you lost some of the self imposed limitations that serving God requires?
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I am an ex-theist. As I haven't written anything for a while, I will answer this from my perspective.
For me, giving up religion/theism was quite a relief. Most of my waking moments leading to the point of my self-realization were consumed with reconciling my beliefs with my perceptions of reality. Once I realized that I didn't actually believe any of it, the struggle vanished. Now, I vacillate between finding something else to do and playing with Theology simply because I enjoy it. I must say it is easier to go with inertia.
That doesn't exactly answer the question though. I feel freer in the absence of theism in one sense. In another I don't.
I think that absolute freedom could bring despair. It that sense, I agree with Sartre (assuming your citation is correct). Anyone who has raised children has an opportunity to see this in a somewhat safe environment. My wife would ask my daughter what she wanted as a snack before bedtime. She'd ask, "Do you want eggs, cheerios, cap'n crunch, toast, apple sauce ..." and the list would go on. My daughter (I'm thinking of when she was about 4) simply could not handle the array of choices. If you said, "Your choices are: Cheerios or Apple sauce or nothing", she'd make a choice almost immediately. Too much freedom can create a deadlock in the brain.
However, I don't know that I know that because I am an atheist I am absolutely free. In fact, I would contend that my disbelief brought with it a more secure sense of who I am--and the constraints that go with it. I am free to be who I am. I am free to know who I am. But I am not free to be who I am not. I cannot (should not) be an entrepreneur--I simply lack the imagination. I could work for one. I can make things happen. But I can't imagine a product or service that someone needs that doesn't yet exist.
The freedom to be who you are and accept it is available, I think, to both the atheist and the theist.
I did not lose part of myself. I gained a better realization of what I truly am. I gave up despair of the idea that I had to be something other than what I am--to be "like Jesus". I gave up feeling guilty about not being perfect. The idea of personal perfection entails "dying to self", the renunciation of what you truly are. Repentance entails that one thinks one can get rid of flaws simply by pushing them aside.
I am a lazy person. I cannot simply deny this and have the laziness vanish. I must own it. I must acknowledge that I can be active and motivated only when I act in the face of what I am--lazy. I must ask myself, am I not doing X simply because I am giving in to my nature or do I really have a good reason--and does it matter in this case? As a theist, I'd find myself saying "I must not be lazy. Therefore I should X simply to show that I am not lazy--that my sanctification is well under way."
Theism, for me, was the ultimate slavery of deluding myself and denying myself and a failure to truly grow.
(NOTE: the question was about feeling despair. Even if I did feel despair, I would not return to theism just to avoid it. I am an atheist because I see no evidence for the claim that a god exists.)
I think you mean Sartre.
For me, giving up religion/theism was quite a relief. Most of my waking moments leading to the point of my self-realization were consumed with reconciling my beliefs with my perceptions of reality. Once I realized that I didn't actually believe any of it, the struggle vanished. Now, I vacillate between finding something else to do and playing with Theology simply because I enjoy it. I must say it is easier to go with inertia.
That doesn't exactly answer the question though. I feel freer in the absence of theism in one sense. In another I don't.
I think that absolute freedom could bring despair. It that sense, I agree with Sartre (assuming your citation is correct). Anyone who has raised children has an opportunity to see this in a somewhat safe environment. My wife would ask my daughter what she wanted as a snack before bedtime. She'd ask, "Do you want eggs, cheerios, cap'n crunch, toast, apple sauce ..." and the list would go on. My daughter (I'm thinking of when she was about 4) simply could not handle the array of choices. If you said, "Your choices are: Cheerios or Apple sauce or nothing", she'd make a choice almost immediately. Too much freedom can create a deadlock in the brain.
However, I don't know that I know that because I am an atheist I am absolutely free. In fact, I would contend that my disbelief brought with it a more secure sense of who I am--and the constraints that go with it. I am free to be who I am. I am free to know who I am. But I am not free to be who I am not. I cannot (should not) be an entrepreneur--I simply lack the imagination. I could work for one. I can make things happen. But I can't imagine a product or service that someone needs that doesn't yet exist.
The freedom to be who you are and accept it is available, I think, to both the atheist and the theist.
I did not lose part of myself. I gained a better realization of what I truly am. I gave up despair of the idea that I had to be something other than what I am--to be "like Jesus". I gave up feeling guilty about not being perfect. The idea of personal perfection entails "dying to self", the renunciation of what you truly are. Repentance entails that one thinks one can get rid of flaws simply by pushing them aside.
I am a lazy person. I cannot simply deny this and have the laziness vanish. I must own it. I must acknowledge that I can be active and motivated only when I act in the face of what I am--lazy. I must ask myself, am I not doing X simply because I am giving in to my nature or do I really have a good reason--and does it matter in this case? As a theist, I'd find myself saying "I must not be lazy. Therefore I should X simply to show that I am not lazy--that my sanctification is well under way."
Theism, for me, was the ultimate slavery of deluding myself and denying myself and a failure to truly grow.
(NOTE: the question was about feeling despair. Even if I did feel despair, I would not return to theism just to avoid it. I am an atheist because I see no evidence for the claim that a god exists.)
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Forgive me for the incorrect spelling 
when i was an atheist he was my favorite author .
And believe me this was one of his thoughts.Im not that deep to make this up myself.
He was one of the few atheists ive ever seen that believed free will was an absolute fact and went further in this belief to say we intuitively fear this fact.If we can be anything we want then by definition we are who we choose not to be.
I was just curious about what an ex theists veiw would be on this being as a theist we have limitations that we must follow in order to be a theist be it any denomination or religion we must adhere to a standard.
While an atheist must create thier own standard and going from theism to atheism would be a rather large change.
So i wondered if it felt as if a peice of onesself is lost in that change.
And the poster did say ask anything.
when i was an atheist he was my favorite author .And believe me this was one of his thoughts.Im not that deep to make this up myself.
He was one of the few atheists ive ever seen that believed free will was an absolute fact and went further in this belief to say we intuitively fear this fact.If we can be anything we want then by definition we are who we choose not to be.
I was just curious about what an ex theists veiw would be on this being as a theist we have limitations that we must follow in order to be a theist be it any denomination or religion we must adhere to a standard.
While an atheist must create thier own standard and going from theism to atheism would be a rather large change.
So i wondered if it felt as if a peice of onesself is lost in that change.
And the poster did say ask anything.
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Don't worry about it.Forgive me for the incorrect spelling
Maybe, but I'd say that "we can be anything" is unduly optimistic.
I'm not sure there is any "must" except what you allow you impose on yourself or allow others to impose on you. However, I think we are all fundamentally limited by what is real. I cannot be an entrepreneur...I simply lack the gifts. This is not a limitation because of my choices nor is it one imposed on me. It simply is a cold, calculated recognition of who and what I am.
Again, I don't think this is true. We are all fundamentally limited by who and what we are. We are conditioned by our society and that includes our ethics and morality. I think knowing this I could do some things others Americans might not ... for example, eat dog if I were in some Asian country. But nevertheless, I imagine that you can imagine a few things that are highly cultural and you know people that won't cross those boundaries however illogical that prohibition might seem.
IOW, there are standards inherent in the society in which we live. If we fail to acknowledge that, we find ourselves ostracized, in jail, or whatever. And I think these limitations, ethics, etc., are equally limiting (and freeing) for theists and atheists.
As might gather, my answer is no.
No problems. I hope my response didn't give you the impression what you asked wasn't ok.And the poster did say ask anything.
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Did you ever try a more personal denomination of Christianity? I always found the Catholic church to be missing much of that aspect.
Also, it makes me sad hearing about people who felt they had to be perfect. Its always been knowing that I am imperfect that made me feel welcome with Jesus. If you remember He never came to hang around the stuck up pretend perfect church leaders.
One more question...without God do you ever feel anything missing in your life now? It doesn't have to be some mystical connection ...just something that life gave that you found you don't have anymore.
Also, it makes me sad hearing about people who felt they had to be perfect. Its always been knowing that I am imperfect that made me feel welcome with Jesus. If you remember He never came to hang around the stuck up pretend perfect church leaders.
One more question...without God do you ever feel anything missing in your life now? It doesn't have to be some mystical connection ...just something that life gave that you found you don't have anymore.
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Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
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What do you mean by "personal", and how does the Catholic church miss that aspect for you?
Actually, no. It's the reverse. And that was a little surprising to me.
Granted, I was never a fully formed adult Christian. My path of development led me to become an unbeliever before I had reached age 20. This complicates the answer to your question, since I was crossing phases of maturation and it's difficult to compare different phases fairly.
Be that as it may, I had felt greater wholeness and personal authenticity once I had gotten through my adolescence and had found my philosophical bearings. I think that this is one of the blessings of honesty. If I had tried to be dishonest with myself and retain a belief system that just wasn't making sense to me, I would probably be more conflicted today, and therefore less whole and authentic.
I can imagine that some atheists find it difficult to achieve some of the spiritual values that they may have achieved as a believer, such as meaning in life. Existentialists document this sort of thing. But atheists are not in general doomed to become some sort of angst-filled nihilist. I certainly am not one.
I experience my life as meaningful, even in the face of inevitable death. I see human potentials as noble and grand, and I see individuals as sacred sources of creation in the world.
As I look back, it is that past Christian-self that seems to be missing something, not the other way around. But as I had said, that's a difficult comparison to make fairly.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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Eudaimonist said:
Keeping in mind that my knowledge of Catholics is limited to media and conversation:
I grew up traveling a LOT. I went to a larger variety of churches, more than I can remember. The one thing I did remember is that none of them ever resembled what I see with catholics. Many held church in gyms or old buildings as opposed to well built churches. We never had anything we recited or drink real wine for communion. People rarely dressed up past jeans and a t-shirts for church. When we needed prayer we went to each other, or more often than not...just us and God.
The point being that I've always found the catholic church so invested in itself that it forgets the reason its there. I rarely see that connection of just friends and God.
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