Ask a confessional Lutheran

[Shane R]

I don't remember "the good old days" when altar and pulpit fellowship was held between the ELCA and LCMS

I don't think that ever existed. Between LCMS and the feeder synods that became ELCA (LCA, ALC, the Seminex crowd), yes. But ELCA emerged in 1988 and was already a decade at odds with LCMS.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't want to derail the thread but that seems to be the next issue of contention up for debate. The Church of England is getting conflicting opinions from two Archbishops of Canterbury: George Carey is favorable and Justin Welby is opposed.

I can't say I did not see it coming. If it comes to a vote, the woke will win.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't think that ever existed. Between LCMS and the feeder synods that became ELCA (LCA, ALC, the Seminex crowd), yes. But ELCA emerged in 1988 and was already a decade at odds with LCMS.

Two reasons then were the application of interpretive standards to scriptural interpretation and the acceptance of Secret Societies (Masons etc.)

 

[Markie Boy]

Let's face it - all major denominations have this issue of liberal vs. traditional within them. Some better some worse.

In the end it's going to come down to local churches - and you'll have to decide for yourself. One can't just tell someone "Go to a Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox, etc....and it will be good." You could get a liberal mess in any of them.

I have to say, the only one I have not seen this in personally are the Baptists.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't think that ever existed. Between LCMS and the feeder synods that became ELCA (LCA, ALC, the Seminex crowd), yes. But ELCA emerged in 1988 and was already a decade at odds with LCMS.

Some did actually; the Canada Synod (now ELCIC) was in fellowship with the LCMS (before the formation of LCC); we (the Canadian Districts of the LCMS) shared a seminary with them in Saskatoon Saskatchewan. I don't exactly recall when fellowship was broken, but I do remember a time when were in fellowship.

 

[RileyG]

I don't think that ever existed. Between LCMS and the feeder synods that became ELCA (LCA, ALC, the Seminex crowd), yes. But ELCA emerged in 1988 and was already a decade at odds with LCMS.

Would a confessional Lutheran (LCMS specifically or maybe WELS) receive holy communion at an ELCA parish?

Or is there holy communion between LCMS and WELS if the pastor agrees?

 

[RileyG]

Let's face it - all major denominations have this issue of liberal vs. traditional within them. Some better some worse.

In the end it's going to come down to local churches - and you'll have to decide for yourself. One can't just tell someone "Go to a Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox, etc....and it will be good." You could get a liberal mess in any of them.

I have to say, the only one I have not seen this in personally are the Baptists.

Do you mean the Southern Baptist? The American Baptist Church ordains women and LGBT.

 

[Shane R]

Would a confessional Lutheran (LCMS specifically or maybe WELS) receive holy communion at an ELCA parish?

Or is there holy communion between LCMS and WELS if the pastor agrees?

Probably not. LCMS and WELS have an official understanding of fellowship which prohibits the faithful from receiving communion in a church with which there is no altar fellowship. This also officially prohibits WELS members from receiving in an LCMS congregation and vice versa.

On the ground, you will find the rules more flexible. A topic of much debate in LCMS is pastors that bend or break the communion rules.

 

[RileyG]

Probably not. LCMS and WELS have an official understanding of fellowship which prohibits the faithful from receiving communion in a church with which there is no altar fellowship. This also officially prohibits WELS members from receiving in an LCMS congregation and vice versa.

On the ground, you will find the rules more flexible. A topic of much debate in LCMS is pastors that bend or break the communion rules.

Interesting, thanks for the response.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Would a confessional Lutheran (LCMS specifically or maybe WELS) receive holy communion at an ELCA parish?

Or is there holy communion between LCMS and WELS if the pastor agrees?

There are members of LCC and LCMS Congregations that do, but with no fellowship between our Synods, we should not. Outside of very special circumstances, my Pastor will not knowingly commune anyone who is not in fellowship with LCC and/or LCMS, or other Synods with which we also are in fellowship with. Regarding Wels; we never actually broke fellowship with them; rather they broke fellowship with us. We voted to allow women to vote at Church meetings and to hold certain specific offices within the Church (not Elder or Deacon); this was an issue for them which resulted in them breaking fellowship with is. That was in the early 80's I believe.

 

[Markie Boy]

Do you mean the Southern Baptist? The American Baptist Church ordains women and LGBT.

I did a little looking. I pretty much was going off the couple of local Baptist churches we have, both of which are quite conservative. It looks like the SBC is trying to stay conservative, while the American Baptist is like the ELCA in Lutheranism.

It seems all groups have this liberal / conservative splitting among them. In some groups they actually split, while in others they stay together on paper, but it's a mess of confusion in reality.

It comes down to your local congregation and pastor.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I did a little looking. I pretty much was going off the couple of local Baptist churches we have, both of which are quite conservative. It looks like the SBC is trying to stay conservative, while the American Baptist is like the ELCA in Lutheranism.

It seems all groups have this liberal / conservative splitting among them. In some groups they actually split, while in others they stay together on paper, but it's a mess of confusion in reality.

It comes down to your local congregation and pastor.

This is way too simple. Most who still attend Church so so for an hour or two each week; the rest of the week they dwell in the secular world. Pastor influences them for a couple hours; woke secular humanism has us for the rest of the time.

Congregationalist Church polity runs amuck when boards decide they know better than their clergy and reject pastoral authority of their Pastor; or their Pastor refused to accept pastoral authority of the local bishops, and even they local bishops may reject the authority of national bishops and presidents.

In effect, it is a violation of the 4th commandment Read the "What does the mean?" from our catechism:

The Fourth Commandment​

Honour your father and your mother.​

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not despise or anger our parents and other authorities, but honour them, serve and obey them, love and cherish them.

Violation of the Fourth Commandment is a violation of the the 1st.:

The First Commandment​

You shall have no other gods.​

What does this mean? We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

 

[RileyG]

I did a little looking. I pretty much was going off the couple of local Baptist churches we have, both of which are quite conservative. It looks like the SBC is trying to stay conservative, while the American Baptist is like the ELCA in Lutheranism.

It seems all groups have this liberal / conservative splitting among them. In some groups they actually split, while in others they stay together on paper, but it's a mess of confusion in reality.

It comes down to your local congregation and pastor.

Thanks for the reply

 

[RileyG]

There are members of LCC and LCMS Congregations that do, but with no fellowship between our Synods, we should not. Outside of very special circumstances, my Pastor will not knowingly commune anyone who is not in fellowship with LCC and/or LCMS, or other Synods with which we also are in fellowship with. Regarding Wels; we never actually broke fellowship with them; rather they broke fellowship with us. We voted to allow women to vote at Church meetings and to hold certain specific offices within the Church (not Elder or Deacon); this was an issue for them which resulted in them breaking fellowship with is. That was in the early 80's I believe.

Early 80s? That’s interesting

 

[JM]

I'm LCMS and would only receive communion from those who are in altar and pulpit fellowship with my Synod.

 

[RileyG]

I'm LCMS and would only receive communion from those who are in altar and pulpit fellowship with my Synod.

There used to be a moderator here who was a wife of a WELS Lutheran pastor. She left years ago.

Thanks for the input.

 

[LizaMarie]

Would a confessional Lutheran (LCMS specifically or maybe WELS) receive holy communion at an ELCA parish?

Or is there holy communion between LCMS and WELS if the pastor agrees?

My pastor (WELS) said we WELS should not take communion in an ELCA service if we attend. Taking communion is agreeing with the doctrines and teachings of that church.

 

[LizaMarie]

My pastor (WELS) said we WELS should not take communion in an ELCA service if we attend. Taking communion is agreeing with the doctrines and teachings of that church.

so the answer is No.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

so the answer is No.

As it is with the LCMS and LCC and all those in fellowship with us.

 

[JM]

My pastor (WELS) said we WELS should not take communion in an ELCA service if we attend. Taking communion is agreeing with the doctrines and teachings of that church.

I wouldn't attend an ELCA service.