Ask a Celibate

[Betsemes]

Not necessarily, but I hope so eventually.

This was your reply to the masturbation question. Since I'm not going for celibacy for religious purposes, I'm not sure masturbation would be acceptable to your God.

...But my quest is against lust. According to my life experience, lust is a weakening emotion. I could do much better without it. So masturbation is one of those behaviors I hope to get rid of once lust is gone.

 

[RocketRed]

...But my quest is against lust. According to my life experience, lust is a weakening emotion. I could do much better without it. So masturbation is one of those behaviors I hope to get rid of once lust is gone.

I'm not sure lust is something that will ever be gone, per se. Perhaps controlled or reigned in, but not really gone. It was my understanding that celibacy meant building up an extremely strong will against lust, living with its presence, but not acting upon it.
Like any other feeling, I think lust is always something we'll feel. It's always a question of what is to be done about it, but I don't think it's ever really going away.

 

[david_x]

Hmmm, doesn't seem to work for me. As I understand it, it means having someone whom we agree to tell about our victories/failures and to encourage each other. Tried it, didn't work. Speaking about sex was too awkward to me.

That seems more like a personal shortcoming then a flaw in the technique.

Repression is a complete failure too. The more you resist lust, the more powerful it gets.

I never suggested such a thing.

Accepting my feelings and releasing any need to judge them has been my most powerful weapon. Lust loses any power then and tends to drain away. This has been my experience.

You don't notice it so much maybe. If someone has a chronic condition the body becomes used to it over time. I'm sure the soul functions in a similar manner.

 

[david_x]

This was your reply to the masturbation question. Since I'm not going for celibacy for religious purposes, I'm not sure masturbation would be acceptable to your God.

...But my quest is against lust. According to my life experience, lust is a weakening emotion. I could do much better without it. So masturbation is one of those behaviors I hope to get rid of once lust is gone.

That could work, though I don't think one can ever be free from a temptation completely.

 

[Betsemes]

I'm not sure lust is something that will ever be gone, per se. Perhaps controlled or reigned in, but not really gone. It was my understanding that celibacy meant building up an extremely strong will against lust, living with its presence, but not acting upon it.
Like any other feeling, I think lust is always something we'll feel. It's always a question of what is to be done about it, but I don't think it's ever really going away.

You might not have heard or read about EFT or similar techniques that can permanently cure a phobia or a food craving or a substance sensitivity. I have read stories and watched educational videos on EFT. A woman cured of her life-long snake phobia, a veteran cured of his PTSD and heighs phobia, another woman cured of her very intense rat phobia, people cured of chocolate cravings, etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. It's just too long a list to discard as coincidences or "quick fixes". EFT is not by far the only technique, but it suffices to illustrate that feelings, disfunctional feelings, can go away.
Now, I can give that I never have seen lust treated with EFT or a similar technique, so I'm somehow breaking ground here.
You know, I have tried these techniques on lust intermitently with mixed results. Now your comment is working like a challenge: "prove that you can actually remove lust". I have been trying it actively for about a week with success. A week is too short a period, but what has happened boosts my confidence that lust can be cured as whether it were an emotional ailment.

That seems more like a personal shortcoming then a flaw in the technique.

Since I see this same problem on almost everyone everyday, I hardly see it as a personal shortcoming, but as a general shortcoming throughout population. The difference here is that my "shortcoming" comes in the form of an awkwardness on talking about it with a same-sex person while it is usually with the opposite sex. Yet, it's in itself, the same thing.

I never suggested such a thing.

Yet, that's the result of putting a strong will in place against lust; you are just tring to put it away by burying it within yourself. I'd rather let it out than having it within me. You might be strong willed enough to succeed on just doing so; I cannot.

You don't notice it so much maybe. If someone has a chronic condition the body becomes used to it over time. I'm sure the soul functions in a similar manner.

LOL I understand how hard it is to believe that lust can actually go away.
Yes, I know that a chronic emotional ailment can cause us to go numb on it.
But I do notice it and it has a strong might. I'm working on removing its teeth so that I actually reduce it to the point of not noticing it. I have been working on releasing attachments and aversions around lust. I have been successful on making it go away by doing so without putting a resistance against it. It's just the contrary, it's about allowing its presense without judgments. If I put a resistance against it, it won't go away, it will stay and will fight hard to prevail.

That could work, though I don't think one can ever be free from a temptation completely.

You know, I'm so eager to prove you wrong.
Moral rules, prohibitions, create voids within our psyches and a feeling of lack is formed which is followed by a want to have what we feel we lack. I have this theory that if I can manage to neutralize the moral rules that my parents, church, and society gave me, I'll be able to reduce lust to nothing. A lifetime of reinforcing those rules is not easy to undo unfortunately. So I'm confident that, by releasing both attachments and aversions both to lust and to the rules that created it, I'll be able to get rid of it.

 

[david_x]

Since I see this same problem on almost everyone everyday, I hardly see it as a personal shortcoming, but as a general shortcoming throughout population. The difference here is that my "shortcoming" comes in the form of an awkwardness on talking about it with a same-sex person while it is usually with the opposite sex. Yet, it's in itself, the same thing.

"Everyone does it" is a challenge, not an excuse.

Yet, that's the result of putting a strong will in place against lust; you are just tring to put it away by burying it within yourself. I'd rather let it out than having it within me. You might be strong willed enough to succeed on just doing so; I cannot.

I do not bury anything, I let it go. I don't harbor these feelings.

LOL I understand how hard it is to believe that lust can actually go away.
Yes, I know that a chronic emotional ailment can cause us to go numb on it.
But I do notice it and it has a strong might. I'm working on removing its teeth so that I actually reduce it to the point of not noticing it. I have been working on releasing attachments and aversions around lust. I have been successful on making it go away by doing so without putting a resistance against it. It's just the contrary, it's about allowing its presense without judgments. If I put a resistance against it, it won't go away, it will stay and will fight hard to prevail.

The war ends when you open your city wall and let the enemy take control, though I don't think that is really winning.

Moral rules, prohibitions, create voids within our psyches and a feeling of lack is formed which is followed by a want to have what we feel we lack. I have this theory that if I can manage to neutralize the moral rules that my parents, church, and society gave me, I'll be able to reduce lust to nothing. A lifetime of reinforcing those rules is not easy to undo unfortunately. So I'm confident that, by releasing both attachments and aversions both to lust and to the rules that created it, I'll be able to get rid of it.

A thief doesn't consider himself a thief, nor does a liar think of himself as a liar. Once you are what you sin, you don't know it anymore.

 

[Betsemes]

"Everyone does it" is a challenge, not an excuse.

Hmmm, I fail to understand what you mean. This seems disconnected from what I was trying to tell or what we were talking about. Would you care to explain what you mean?

I do not bury anything, I let it go. I don't harbor these feelings.

I cannot argue against that. I don't know you and I don't know the full extent of whatever you do.

The war ends when you open your city wall and let the enemy take control, though I don't think that is really winning.

That's true about a real human-against-human war, but not true about feelings. When you resist feelings, they tend to grab unto you, but when you let them exist without fighting them yet without indulging into them, just ignore them, they tend to dissolve. You don't act on them anymore and you don't notice them. That's true about fear, about anger, about anxiety, even about physical pain if you are already skillful enough on it.

A thief doesn't consider himself a thief, nor does a liar think of himself as a liar. Once you are what you sin, you don't know it anymore.

Hmmm, not sure where you are going to. I think your Bible explained what I just had explained in other terms. Yet you seem to be fighting against my explanation. It seems to me you didn't understand what I just explained.

Anyway, if I reach a state in which I never feel lust, never think about it, never act on it, would I have become lustful to the point of not noticing it? That's the blatant contradiction you are getting into. I'm not talking about getting into lust, but on a way out of it. I'm talking about neutralizing whatever caused the feelings of wants, the desires, which was the rules taught to me by my parents and society. After that comes the freedom of being able to choose what is good and not being coersed by desires.

Does it make sense now? It's what Saint Paul calls the sinful nature. Sin takes advantage of rules to make ourselves fall. And yet, the rules I'm talking about are not Biblical ones, they are man-made and this is the tragedy of it. They are useless rules in themselves and yet they are creating desires within me. I'm better without them and free than with them and a slave to desires.

 

[david_x]

Hmmm, I fail to understand what you mean. This seems disconnected from what I was trying to tell or what we were talking about. Would you care to explain what you mean?



I cannot argue against that. I don't know you and I don't know the full extent of whatever you do.



That's true about a real human-against-human war, but not true about feelings. When you resist feelings, they tend to grab unto you, but when you let them exist without fighting them yet without indulging into them, just ignore them, they tend to dissolve. You don't act on them anymore and you don't notice them. That's true about fear, about anger, about anxiety, even about physical pain if you are already skillful enough on it.



Hmmm, not sure where you are going to. I think your Bible explained what I just had explained in other terms. Yet you seem to be fighting against my explanation. It seems to me you didn't understand what I just explained.

Anyway, if I reach a state in which I never feel lust, never think about it, never act on it, would I have become lustful to the point of not noticing it? That's the blatant contradiction you are getting into. I'm not talking about getting into lust, but on a way out of it. I'm talking about neutralizing whatever caused the feelings of wants, the desires, which was the rules taught to me by my parents and society. After that comes the freedom of being able to choose what is good and not being coersed by desires.

Does it make sense now? It's what Saint Paul calls the sinful nature. Sin takes advantage of rules to make ourselves fall. And yet, the rules I'm talking about are not Biblical ones, they are man-made and this is the tragedy of it. They are useless rules in themselves and yet they are creating desires within me. I'm better without them and free than with them and a slave to desires.

Yeah, I don't remember what the conversation was actually about as it's been a very long time. Ah well best of luck.

 

[Penumbra]

This was your reply to the masturbation question. Since I'm not going for celibacy for religious purposes, I'm not sure masturbation would be acceptable to your God.

...But my quest is against lust. According to my life experience, lust is a weakening emotion. I could do much better without it. So masturbation is one of those behaviors I hope to get rid of once lust is gone.

How are you defining lust here?

Are you defining lust as any and all physical attraction and desire for physical pleasure, even in the context of romantic love? If so, for what reason do you consider that a weakness?

Or, are you defining lust as inappropriate attraction or desire for physical pleasure?

-Lyn

 

[Betsemes]

How are you defining lust here?

Are you defining lust as any and all physical attraction and desire for physical pleasure, even in the context of romantic love?

Lust is a desire for sex. Now that might be considered all right, even to be expected. I have read (and my experience tends to confirm) that a desire, any desire, is based on a feeling of lack. When you are forbidden or deprived of something (and you just buy it), you are creating a void within your psyche that is filled with a feeling of lack that spanws a desire to fullfil that lack.

Now comes the question whether it's possible to have sex without lust. I have read somewhere that it's possible, but that's just a mere possibility that I don't know about. I'd definitely want to try it if I ever get into a romantic relationship; I think it's worth the try.

If so, for what reason do you consider that a weakness?

This mostly come from experience. I have noticed that when lust is not present, my thoughts are clearer, my will is stronger, and I can go about life more effectively.

Or, are you defining lust as inappropriate attraction or desire for physical pleasure?

"Inappropriate" is such a vague concept that I always try to avoid it. I'm not trying to say that lust is a sin or a temptation. I leave that to the christians. I just say that I have felt stronger during those lust-free short periods, thus I prefer to live a lust-free life, something that I'm still to fully experience. That's just me. Live your life as you see fit you better. But lust just doesn't fit me.