Ascetic Exercise

[Caedmon]

When I was in a Christian youth group, the youth pastor did something particularly unusual one night. He brought nails to our meeting, and when the meeting began, he gave each youth two nails. He then told us to push the points of the nails as tightly as we possibly could into our palms for the duration of the meeting, supposedly to remind us of Christ's sacrifice. Was this an appropriate action for a youth pastor to impose on minors under his care?

 

[Oblio]

Asceticism is the denying of self so that He can dwell in us, it is not inflicting punishment or physical pain upon ourselves. In the Eastern Christian view that is.

Probably not the answer that you are looking for but my 2 kopecks ...

 

[midnight star]

This terribly inappropriate, dangerous, and stupid to say the least.

 

[vajradhara]

here, here...


i'm with the stupid faction on this one...

besides which... they didn't nail people through the palms.. they would just pull off the nails... they went through the wrist so you couldn't pull off.

geez..... historically inaccurate as well....

so... let me ask you.... did it make you feel Jesus' presence any more or less than you were normally inclined to?

 

[Volos]

Stupid both on the part of the pastor and if the kids did it…it was incredibly stupid of their part.

 

[praying]

When I was in a Christian youth group, the youth pastor did something particularly unusual one night. He brought nails to our meeting, and when the meeting began, he gave each youth two nails. He then told us to push the points of the nails as tightly as we possibly could into our palms for the duration of the meeting, supposedly to remind us of Christ's sacrifice. Was this an appropriate action for a youth pastor to impose on minors under his care?

Inappropiate and stupid.

 

[dlamberth]

It was a very good lesson that I'm sure sunk deeper into the souls of the youth than otherwise would have happened. In my opinion that pastor has an understanding of how "experiential" spiritual knowledge is acquired and the affects it has upon the soul.

He was not asking the youth to hurt themselves, just to push the envelope enough to stretch those spiritual muscles they don't normally use. What does it mean to "know" Jesus Christ? Experiencing some of the experience that Jesus knew and experienced helps one to "know" Jesus that much better. I applaud the pastor's teaching wisdom.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Dumb... dunno what else to say, other than the already noted point that it was through the wrists, b/c if they nailed through the palm the hands couldnt support the weight. this would leave the nail in the wood while the hand just pulled off the nail, going all the way through and screwing the whole process up.

I'm disgusted at that message and i'm glad i wasnt there b/c I would have given the nails back the the pastor... and not in the palms

 

[feral]

Strange...when I had youth group all we ever did was sing.

 

[Caedmon]

so... let me ask you.... did it make you feel Jesus' presence any more or less than you were normally inclined to?

No, not in the least... I didn't understand the... point...

Not to mention, I've had far more successful spiritual experiences through meditation.

 

[vajradhara]

No, not in the least... I didn't understand the... point...

Not to mention, I've had far more successful spiritual experiences through meditation.

Namaste,

hehe

i guess that i still don't... eh... but perhaps that's just me... who can say?

i'm always a bit wary of the "group" experience since it is so hard to seperate a genuine experience from the group psychology that would tend to enforce the perception of experience.

 

[SolomonVII]

I would question whether this was an exercise in ascetism more than an exercise in the development of empathy. With all the violence on TV and video games, many are concerned that an attitude of indifference towards the pain of others may be one of the consequences. If this exercise enabled some of the students to begin to understand the suffering of another, then it may be considered a success. If not, no real harm was done anyway, so there is no reason to condemn it.

 

[Prometheus_ash]

besides which... they didn't nail people through the palms.. they would just pull off the nails... they went through the wrist so you couldn't pull off.

This is not exactly true. The romans would not have even used the wrists, as this would not have held the body up either, and the nails would rip the person's arms apart, but would take longer than from the hands. The proper way of Crucifixion, according to the Romans (and tested by a paticular Christian festivle in south America in which they actually crucify someone for the ceremony, but let them down again shortly so as not to kill them, but merely show what Jesus went through...) you had to place a block of wood on the persons forarm, and then pound the nails through. Th nails through the hand and wrist are common misconceptions, though the nails-through-the-wrist school is a bit more historically acurate.

 

[Michali]

This is not exactly true. The romans would not have even used the wrists, as this would not have held the body up either, and the nails would rip the person's arms apart, but would take longer than from the hands. The proper way of Crucifixion, according to the Romans (and tested by a paticular Christian festivle in south America in which they actually crucify someone for the ceremony, but let them down again shortly so as not to kill them, but merely show what Jesus went through...) you had to place a block of wood on the persons forarm, and then pound the nails through. Th nails through the hand and wrist are common misconceptions, though the nails-through-the-wrist school is a bit more historically acurate.

Actually, I watched the History channel one time in which the nailed feet supported the body enough for the hands to not be ripped through. Also, the thought of "pulling the hand out", can be easily fixed by making the butt of the nail abnormally thick. There may have even been a make-shift bar that crossed along the stem of the nail. Or something like a rail spike, or a rose head nail.

I mean, you have to remember, these are ancient nails. They aren't the little nails with their little circle heads that we have today.

 

[vajradhara]

This is not exactly true. The romans would not have even used the wrists, as this would not have held the body up either, and the nails would rip the person's arms apart, but would take longer than from the hands. The proper way of Crucifixion, according to the Romans (and tested by a paticular Christian festivle in south America in which they actually crucify someone for the ceremony, but let them down again shortly so as not to kill them, but merely show what Jesus went through...) you had to place a block of wood on the persons forarm, and then pound the nails through. Th nails through the hand and wrist are common misconceptions, though the nails-through-the-wrist school is a bit more historically acurate.

Namaste Prometheus,

thank you for the post.

hmm... interesting. here's my source information:



The Romans had perfected execution by crucifixion to and art. It was carried out in such a way as to inflict a maximum amount of pain on the condemned prior to death.

The condemned were required to carry the cross beam or patibulum weighing between 75 and 125 pounds to the place of execution where several upright bars called stipes were kept planted in the ground. The stipes were sharpened to a point at the top. The patibulum had a hollowed out portion on the under side into which the sharpened point of the stipe would fit. Using ropes and latter the Romans would then lift the patibulum with the condemned attached to the top of the stipe and put the two pieces together.

Unlike the Egyptians form of crucifixion the Romans did not tie the condemned to the patibulum they used tapered square spikes about five and a half inches long and about a third of an inch across the top. The spikes were driven through the wrist at the heel of the hand. They knew the exact place to drive the spike so that it pressure on the median nerve. This would excruciating pain to run up and down the condemned's arms while at the same time causing the thumb to be drawn inward until it press against the palm. The fingers eventually are cramped inward toward the palm.

The condemned were nailed with their arms at a ninety degree angel but as they hung on the cross their body would eventually sag to about a sixty five degree angle. The weight of the body hanging in this position would cause the pectoral muscles to become paralyzed and the person would be able to breath in but not exhale.

Prior to death more often than not a person would flail his body about which would aggravated the guards. So, in order to prevent this they would nail the person's feet to the stipe. In doing this they discovered that the condemned would use the spike driven through their feet as a kind of step and force his body upward so that his arms would reach in angle that would allow him to breath again and thus prolong the time before death. Sometimes it could take days for a person to die when there feet were nailed to the stipe.

In nailing the feet to the stipe the knees were bent one foot was placed flat on the stipe and the other foot was placed on top of it. A spike was the driven through the second metatarsal space of the feet. Injuring the peroneal nerve and branches of the medial and lateral plantar nerves. Also causing the membrane of highly innervated connective tissue with numerous blood vessels surrounding the bones of the feet would be stripped creating very intense pain. The Romans had become such experts at crucifixion that they were able to predict within about four hours the time of a person's death by the angle they used in bending the knees.

http://www.carlsbadnm.com/sleeman/Story/rcrucify.htm

 

[Michali]

Oh ****. I don't think I'll ever look at crucifixion the same way again.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste,


it is pretty dramatic to say the least.

though i think that one could make a good case that being scourged and then thrown into a pit of sharpened stakes and lice is an equally, if not more, horrifying method of execution.

the lice, you see, will simply eat you alive.. burrowing into the wounds and consuming the organs and flesh from within.

Yesye Tsogal had this done to her... she's the consort of Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) who brought Buddhism to Tibet.

 

[Prometheus_ash]

Hmmm. I was unable to find any of the Roman documents, and thus had to go off of the writings of the doctors that were asked to Crucify volenteers for festivals in South America. This is done once a year, and because Crucifixion is such a slow way of dying (it forces your ribcage to collapse over your heart and lungs, as well as other things) the people are always able to survive, as they are taken down after only a few hours. Thats my information sources.

 

[Natro]

wouldn't that give the members of the group a false interpitation that Christ pain was the sacrific.

 

[Prometheus_ash]

wouldn't that give the members of the group a false interpitation that Christ pain was the sacrific.

Christ pain was sacrific. He was, if you are a chirstian, the worlds biggest/most important sacrifice ever. As I understand it, the purpose of the ceremony is to show what Jesus was supposed to have gone through, so that people are better able to apriciate the pain endured for the sacrifice.

(I personally disagree with this, but that is a whole 'nother story)