LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

Major1 · Apr 25, 2018

Ironhold said:
No, that's a list of what Matt Slick believes defines Christianity.

Read up on Slick and how he's been running CARM.

...While you still can, as someone's been going around scrubbing anything that doesn't put him in a good light.

Once place to start:

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) - SHIELDS

You have to be kidding!!!!

What did he say that is incorrect?????

What do the facts say from anyone who has looked into and studied the Mormon religion say.

Slaying the messenger does not effect the message my dear friend.

Since you have a problem with CARM, lets see what others say so that you can challenge them as well..........

Humans have the potential to achieve godhood if they follow Mormon teachings. In his King Follett speech, Joseph Smith Jr. said, “Here then is eternal life — to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God the same as all gods have done before you.”

There is no original sin. The Articles of Faith 2 says, “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” This is in contrast to Romans 5, which says death came to all through one man’s sin. This raises the troubling question for Mormons of why Jesus even had to die.

God the Father has a physical body. D&C 130:22 says, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.”Thus, man is made in the image of the body of God (Moses 6:9). This is in contrast with John 4:24, which says, “God is spirit.”

Those comments come from....What are the Key Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity? « Biola Magazine

Here then from What Do Mormons Believe? Ex-Mormon Speaks Out – Part Two

LDS Article 1: "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

"Mormons do not believe in the Trinity as we understand it. They believe that God and Jesus were separate physical people" who dwelled on the earth, Johnston said. God was Jesus' father, and both men died.

Article 2: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

"Mormons do not believe in original sin. In the LDS religion, you can't sin until you reach the age of accountability, which is age 8. We are all born perfect," Johnston explained.

Article 8: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

"That one opens the door," Johnston said. "That's where the can of worms comes out."

"When this was taught to me as a child – they started by asking us to play the telephone game, where you whisper a phrase in your neighbor's ear and it is passed down the line," she said. "Obviously, at the end, the original phrase had changed and no longer resembles what was said at the beginning. The comparison was then made to the Bible – that it has been changed and revised over the years and so we can't completely trust that it is accurate."

Major1 · Apr 25, 2018

Ironhold said:
You need to get away from the Tanners.

They've shown in the past that they feel no qualms about using the Devil's tactics in God's name.

No, the changes were *not* excluding such things.

Apologist Jeff Lindsay devotes an entire page on his website to addressing the charge as presented:

LDSFAQ: Changes in the Book of Mormon

To quote:

The many changes that critics are so indignant over are corrections of the very kind one would expect in putting a hand-written document into type with crude technology and under difficult circumstances - and in a time with many varying spelling practices. Many of the changes are due to the fact that the Book of Mormon was dictated to scribes without punctuation and without division between verses and chapter - just as one might expect from a fairly direct translation of an ancient Hebraic or Semitic text, written without punctuation. The lack of punctuation in the original required much work after dictation to put it in a presentable form - but that work was not done to cover up mistakes in the original and did not involve changing stories, doctrine, or anything else of substance. Numerous minor errors were printed in the original 1830 edition because of errors in preparing handwritten printer's manuscripts from the original manuscript, and because of additional printing errors. Again, many of the changes in the Book of Mormon over the years have been necessary to make the text correspond more perfectly with the original manuscript. It's simply untrue to say that the Church has departed from the original or that there were gross blunders in the original manuscript that needed to be fixed because they showed the Book to be a fraud.

Actually, most attempts to calculate the weight of the plates are off, due to people both treating the plates as a solid block (there would have been gaps between pages due to the nature of the engraving process used to put the wording on them) that was made of pure gold (pure gold is too soft to maintain shape like this and so it would have been an alloy, possibly of a material known as tumbaga: Tumbaga - Wikipedia ).

I'm trying to find some various calculations made using these considerations, but given the above considerations I've seen weights cited that are as little as 90 pounds. In fact, people other than Joseph had no effort lifting the plates at all: What was the approximate weight of the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated? - ensign .

If it tells you anything, take a look at this here bag of concrete mix:

Shop QUIKRETE 80-lb High Strength Concrete Mix at Lowes.com

I'm pretty well broken down due to injuries, but I can still heft one of these and carry it without much issue. That's 80 pounds, in the neighborhood of what the plates are estimated to have weighed.

This is another one where the Tanners do not provide full context.

Mormon/LDS Answers: Questions about LDS Prophets and the Mormons

You see, at the time Joseph Smith supposedly said that, a number of newspapers were reporting on... there being life on the moon. These newspapers had fallen for a hoax perpetrated by people claiming to represent a top astronomer, and so the news was being reported widely.

If Joseph did indeed make the statement (just about every critical claim comes from a single source that was given decades after the fact), all it could well mean is that he read the daily newspaper. That's a perfectly human thing.

“Do you believe Joseph Smith had gold plates?”

The story of the gold plates cannot be underestimated, for without them there can be no Book of Mormon.

Smith claimed the record he received from the angel was “six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin.” He also said the “volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed.” Given these dimensions, we can conclude that the plates were one-sixth of a cubic foot. Since gold weighs 1,204 pounds per cubic foot, we can agree with LDS Apostle John Widtsoe who said, “If the gold were pure, [the plates] would weigh two hundred pounds, which would be a heavy weight for a man to carry, even though he were of the athletic type of Joseph Smith.”

Several LDS historians and Church manuals have repeated the story given by Lucy Mack Smith, the mother of the Mormon prophet. In her account, she says that her son took the plates from their secret place and, “wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home.” After “traveling some distance,” he “came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed.”2 She said her son was attacked twice more, and since there is no record of Smith rendering his assailants unconscious or incapacitated, we must assume he outran them for at least a portion of the distance necessary to reach the Smith home three miles away. We must also assume that he did all this with a slight limp that he received from a childhood surgery.
http://www.equip.org/article/problems-with-the-gold-plates-of-the-book-of-mormon-2/

Jane_Doe · Apr 25, 2018

Major1 said:
You have to be kidding!!!!

What did he say that is incorrect?????

Literally every paragraph in CARM's work is rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs. I respect a person's right to believe whatever that person does, but not their misrepresenting of what other people believe and preaching it from the pulpit.

I got to run right now, but will elaborate more in a few hours.

Ironhold · Apr 25, 2018

For Romans 5, take a look at verse 13: there is no sin if there is no law.

That's consistent throughout LDS theology: if a person does not have the capacity to know better, they aren't judged to that higher standard.

Adam & Eve had no knowledge of sin until they ate from the tree. Once they knew, they were held to the standard required of one who knew better. Thus, spiritual death entered the world. People could sin. People aren't automatically wicked and fallen just for existing, but as humans they have the capacity to sin and need salvation accordingly.

Similarly, let's look at baptism.

The statement you have up above is wrong. The church's teachings are that people below the age of 8, and people whose mental capacity leaves them below that level, are innocent, not perfect. Their limited capacity means that they don't fully comprehend what's going on around them.

Does this sound unique?

It shouldn't.

About 80 years after this revelation was given, psychology backed it up.

Piaget's theory of cognitive development - Wikipedia

To be more specific:

Piaget's theory of cognitive development - Wikipedia

Piaget noted that it wasn't until a child was between 7 and 11 that they finally developed the ability to use logic and reason, and that this was also the approximate period of time in which they developed the ability to see beyond themselves and into the perspective of others, even if they disagreed with what they were seeing.

In addition, most legal systems in the first world also recognize that under a certain age the crime is on the parent, not the child.

I have to go do errands, so I'll get the rest later.

BigDaddy4 · Apr 25, 2018

Ironhold said:
Actually, most attempts to calculate the weight of the plates are off, due to people both treating the plates as a solid block (there would have been gaps between pages due to the nature of the engraving process used to put the wording on them) that was made of pure gold (pure gold is too soft to maintain shape like this and so it would have been an alloy, possibly of a material known as tumbaga: Tumbaga - Wikipedia ).

I'm trying to find some various calculations made using these considerations, but given the above considerations I've seen weights cited that are as little as 90 pounds. In fact, people other than Joseph had no effort lifting the plates at all: What was the approximate weight of the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated? - ensign .

If it tells you anything, take a look at this here bag of concrete mix:

Shop QUIKRETE 80-lb High Strength Concrete Mix at Lowes.com

I'm pretty well broken down due to injuries, but I can still heft one of these and carry it without much issue. That's 80 pounds, in the neighborhood of what the plates are estimated to have weighed.

Can you run 3 miles with a limp carrying 80 pounds while being chased through the woods? Already discussed here.
LDS - What is the basis of changes to the BoM?

BigDaddy4 · Apr 25, 2018

Ironhold said:
You need to get away from the Tanners.

They've shown in the past that they feel no qualms about using the Devil's tactics in God's name.

You need to stop deflecting and deal with the content of the information. You seem to have no qualms about providing misinformation to cover the blemishes of your prophets, nor oversensationalizing events that may or may not have happened because you cannot provide proof. It's all in your god's name, though, right? Log, beam...

Major1 · Apr 25, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Literally every paragraph is rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs. I respect a person's right to believe whatever that person does, but not their misrepresenting of what other people believe and preaching it from the pulpit.

I got to run right now, but will elaborate more in a few hours.

Both Christianity and Mormonism share the belief that Jesus Christ has a physical body, but diverge when it comes to the nature of God the Father.

Mormonism departs from the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity & Islam) that all believe God is a spirit.
Jesus Christ: God is a spirit -----Joseph Smith: God has a physical body
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
— John 4:24

"A spirit does not have flesh and bones"
— Luke 24:39
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's...
Joseph Smith
Mormonism founder
D&C 130:22

This unique Mormon doctrine is an extension of the belief that God was formerly a mortal man.
This unique Mormon doctrine constrains God:

Christianity: God is omnipresent -----Mormonism: God is not omnipresent
... the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him...
— 2 Chronicles 2:6
... "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.
— Jeremiah 23:24
Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so.
Brigham Young
Mormon prophet
JoD 6:345
You will have to do a lot of elaboration.

http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/god-has-a-body.html

Jane_Doe · Apr 25, 2018

Major1 said:
Both Christianity and Mormonism share the belief that Jesus Christ has a physical body, but diverge when it comes to the nature of God the Father.

Mormonism departs from the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity & Islam) that all believe God is a spirit.

Jesus Christ: God is a spirit -----Joseph Smith: God has a physical body
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
— John 4:24

"A spirit does not have flesh and bones"
— Luke 24:39

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's...
Joseph Smith
Mormonism founder
D&C 130:22

This unique Mormon doctrine is an extension of the belief that God was formerly a mortal man.

This unique Mormon doctrine constrains God:

Christianity: God is omnipresent -----Mormonism: God is not omnipresent
... the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him...
— 2 Chronicles 2:6

... "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

— Jeremiah 23:24

Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so.
Brigham Young
Mormon prophet
JoD 6:345

You will have to do a lot of elaboration.

http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/god-has-a-body.html

Note: I wanted to make sure that it was clear my post #163 was referring to CARM's work. Major1, if you want me to clarify any point of LDS theology, I'd be happy to. If so, just let me know which point you'd like me to start on first (that seems more logical than me just randomly picking one).

BigDaddy4 · Apr 25, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Note: I wanted to make sure that it was clear my post #163 was referring to CARM's work. Major1, if you want me to clarify any point of LDS theology, I'd be happy to. If so, just let me know which point you'd like me to start on first (that seems more logical than me just randomly picking one).

Another general assertion that you cannot back up with supporting evidence. Why don't YOU clarify and elaborate on what part of CARM's work is "rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs"??

Pick one. Any one. And then tell us WHY it misrepresents lds beliefs.

Jane_Doe · Apr 25, 2018

BigDaddy4 said:
Another general assertion that you cannot back up with supporting evidence. Why don't YOU clarify and elaborate on what part of CARM's work is "rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs"??

Pick one. Any one. And then tell us WHY it misrepresents lds beliefs.

As I said, pick any point and I'll go through it. That is more logical to address the points you care about first and talk in depth about them, rather than me posting a wall of text about every single point.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

dzheremi said:
Yes, I believe that Catholics are Christians, but what does this have to do with the fact that Mormon books are not a part of Christian scripture?

I believe that everyone who follows Christ are Christians.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

twin.spin said:
And is it coincidental that you not ended with the man went away sad and grieved at Jesus' answer.

(New Testament | Mark 10:22)

Not one word was told to the man by Jesus that gave him any hope according to what Biblical Christianity teaches.

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
(New Testament | James 2:10).

One stumble – one unintentional sin – causes the verdict of “guilty” to rain down on our heads.
Jesus didn’t say, “try to be perfect”. He said, “be perfect” (Matthew 5:48) for those who attempt eternal life via obeying the commandments in any percentage other than by faith in Jesus.

If you read the whole verse you would see that Jesus loved him because he kept the commandments.

dzheremi · Apr 25, 2018

He is the way said:
I believe that everyone who follows Christ are Christians.

Okay. Again, what does this have to do with the Christian Biblical canon?

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

Major1 said:
1).
Mormon Article of Faith #8.........
"We Believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

Why do you only add the phrase, "as far as it is translated correctly" to describe the Bible and not after the book of Mormon when in fact there are far more translating errors in the Book of Mormon than the Bible?

2).
If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

3).
How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubic foot. The plates were 7" x 8" by about 6". See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th ed.)

4).
Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264. See repreint in Mormonism --Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)

He is the way said:
The JST is a better translation. The gold plates were not made of pure gold. They weighed 30 pounds. The eight witnesses weighed them. Did Joseph Smith say there were men living on the moon? Only if you believe a third hand account.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

Major1 said:
Actually you follow Joseph Smith.

I am sure that you are a wonderful person but just like all Mormons you are deceived.

Mormonism is not Christian because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity that are stated in the Bible. Here is a basic list of what true Christianity teaches as Christian doctrine according to the Bible, not our interpretation.
Is Mormonism Christian? Are Mormons Christian? | CARM.org

There is only one God in all existence (Exodus 20:1-4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5).

Jesus is divine (John 1:1, 14; 8:24; Col. 2:9)

Forgiveness of sins is by grace alone without works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 3:28; 4:1-5)

Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:39)

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

Mormonism denies that there is only one God in all existence and also denies the forgiveness of sins alone in Christ alone. Therefore, it is outside of Bible Christianity.

It is a religion unto itself.

He is the way said:
I follow Jesus Christ. We do not believe that to us there is one God:

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:21)

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
However there are other Gods:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
We are not saved by grace alone without faith:

(New Testament | Ephesians 2:8 - 10)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We know that faith without works is dead faith:
(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

dzheremi said:
Okay. Again, what does this have to do with the Christian Biblical canon?

I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

Major1 said:
YES!

If He had not used the prophets and the Apostle he would and could have used ROCKS.

Luke 19:40 ...........
"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Hebrews 1:1-2.............
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

The Bible states there will be prophets after Jesus Christ.

dzheremi · Apr 25, 2018

He is the way said:
I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Okay. What does that have to do with the Christian biblical canon?

I don't like having to re-ask the same question three times in a row. Please, could you make whatever point you are trying to make a bit more explicit than this? It is not at all clear to me how your questions relate to the Christian canon.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2018

dzheremi said:
Not everything is a matter of opinion. The books that are unique to the Mormon religion are simply not related to Christianity. They didn't come from it, they don't belong within it, and they aren't accepted within it.

They are definitely related to Christianity. The Book of Mormon is about Jesus Christ's dealings with the ancient people who lived on the American continent and His visit to them as he stated:

(New Testament | John 10:16)

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Doctrine and Covenants are revelations given to latter day prophets by Jesus Christ. The Pearle of Great Price was translated from ancient Egyptian papyrus. They are accepted by over 16 million members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

BigDaddy4 · Apr 25, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
As I said, pick any point and I'll go through it. That is more logical to address the points you care about first and talk in depth about them, rather than me posting a wall of text about every single point.

I didn't make the assertion, you did.

Jane_Doe said:
Literally every paragraph in CARM's work is rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs.

Now, please pick one and show us what is misrepresented. Then it can be discussed.

LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

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