As a thief in the night.

[LiturgyInDMinor]

NoRaptureBaptist,
What do you do about 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

P.S. I believe in a pre-trib rapture


Note: I don't feel as if we are going off topic from the OP because the OP was dealing with the rapture.

It's simply a departure from Truth before the antichrist arrives on the scene. It has nothing to do with a pre-Rapture of the church before the tribulation.

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand". Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".


So to answer your question I don't think it's proof for either a pre- or post-Tribulational Rapture actually.

thanks for listening.

 

[icamewithasword]

If the tribulation is coming with the false prophets, liars, and lawlessness; and "pre-tribulation rapture" is thought to be when the believers are spared from tribulation.....Well, then why would Jesus even need to warn us to watch out for the false prophets and for the liar that would call himself the Messiah to begin with?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

double post sorry

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

If the tribulation is coming with the false prophets, liars, and lawlessness; and "pre-tribulation rapture" is thought to be when the believers are spared from tribulation.....Well, then why would Jesus even need to warn us to watch out for the false prophets and for the liar that would call himself the Messiah to begin with?

Because he Loves us.
But since I'm a post-triber I cannot answer your entire question.

 

[MrJG]

It's simply a departure from Truth before the antichrist arrives on the scene. It has nothing to do with a pre-Rapture of the church before the tribulation.

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand". Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".


So to answer your question I don't think it's proof for either a pre- or post-Tribulational Rapture actually.

thanks for listening.

That is what many people believe about this passage, but I believe along with others such as John Meredith, Dwight Pentecost, Dr. E. Schuyler English, to name a few, believe that the word "apostasia" here means "depart" or "departure" but not a departure from the faith. If Paul had meant to say a departure from the faith instead of just a departure, he would have used the Greek word "a-pisteuo" which would mean "no faith". "Apostasia" literally means "a departure from where one is standing." This sounds like being "caught up" or raptured. The word "apostasia" is used twice in the NT but it is a derivative of the word "aphisteemi" which means is used 15 times in the NT, eleven of which are translated as departure and only four are translated "drawn of fallen away" only three of these times referring to a falling away from the faith. So, yes, I believe it does prove a coming rapture of the church and before the tribulation.

Also, to NoRaptureBaptist, why would the church need to go through the tribulation since it is a judgment and our sins have already been forgiven? We as Christians will not be judged until the Judgment Seat of Christ when our works are judged to see what rewards we receive.

God Bless

 

[icamewithasword]

Still reading on this, brothers.....
But, I don't think tribulation and the judgement are the same. And i'm not positive, but aren't we told to persevere(?) during the tribulation. Aren't we told not to listen to the false prophets and the false god, and that we would be persecuted by men for our faith, but asked to remain in our faith to Christ.....almost as a test of our faith.....

Strange how you can get such diff opinions from people reading the same bible.......

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

wow a few posts are gone since CF crashed.

ah well.

 

[MrJG]

It is my understanding: Paul is speaking here of the lawlessness is already secretly at work, and it will remain secret until the one holding it back steps away. The one holding lawlessness back could be the Holy Spirit, but could also be the rule of law. Can you imagine the lawlessness that would come if there were no laws or keepers of laws?
Anyways.....I'm still studying this....
Thanks and God Bless.

While studying for another thread (NoRapture's "Tribulational Saints" thread), I came across an answer for you about why the restraining power can not be the rule of law. This is because the rule of law will still be present after the rapture of the church and the revelation of the AntiChrist at the start of the tribulation. So, we know that the church can not be rapture until the on that restrains is removed. This restrainer must be the Holy Spirit because nothing else can restrain Satan (i.e. the church, government, the Roman Empire).

 

[DD2008]

Jesus Christ will come back when the last person on earth has had a chance to answer Him.

So there will be no infants, or incapable at that time?

 

[MrJG]

So there will be no infants, or incapable at that time?

I personally believe that everyone on earth will hear the gospel during the tribulation through the ministry of the two witnesses and the 144,000. We know that everyone will know about the two witnesses because of what the Bible tells us in Revelation 11:9.

I also believe in the age of accountability and that through God's grace and mercy, those who are not old enough to understand or who do not have the mental capability to grasp the idea of salvation will be taken to heaven.

 

[DD2008]

I personally believe that everyone on earth will hear the gospel during the tribulation through the ministry of the two witnesses and the 144,000. We know that everyone will know about the two witnesses because of what the Bible tells us in Revelation 11:9.

I also believe in the age of accountability and that through God's grace and mercy, those who are not old enough to understand or who do not have the mental capability to grasp the idea of salvation will be taken to heaven.

Interesting.

Do you believe that Jesus could come back today?

 

[MrJG]

Interesting.

Do you believe that Jesus could come back today?

I believe that the only thing holding Christ from returning to rapture His church is His longsuffering(ness?). Christ is waiting for that last person to be saved. Aside from that, I believe that Christ's return is very imminent.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am ready to go!

 

[DD2008]

I believe that the only thing holding Christ from returning to rapture His church is His longsuffering(ness?). Christ is waiting for that last person to be saved. Aside from that, I believe that Christ's return is very imminent.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am ready to go!

I hope it's today.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Which do you hope? the Rapture or Christ's return?

 

[MrJG]

Which do you hope? the Rapture or Christ's return?

HAHAHA LOL

That Blessed Hope also known as "the Rapture of the Church."

 

[DD2008]

Which do you hope? the Rapture or Christ's return?

Whatever Christ wants to do. I think he'll just show up one day and get his people.

 

[the particular baptist]

Whatever Christ want's to do. I think he'll just show up one day and get his people.

Matthew 13, speaking of the parable of the wheat and tares, Christ later explains to the disciples what He meant. It is very interesting. Christ said the Kingdom of heaven is the world and the good seed are the sons of the Kingdom, and the One that sowed them is the Son of Man. The bad seed are the sons of the devil and the one that sowed them is the devil. On the Last Day Christ will gather His people to Himself and burn the rest. There is no mention of a millennium, only eternity after the Last Day. If there is a rapture, it will be on the Last Day. Why go to a clearly apocalyptic genre and read it literally, and completely dismiss the plain explanation of our Lord with respect to the Kingdom and the end of days as we know it and eternity ? I only brought up this passage, but the Two Age's spoken of in the NT is also very enlightening.




Matthew 13:36-42

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”

He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.

The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil.

The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

He who has ears, let him hear.






After the close of the age and the judgment, the sons of the Kingdom enter the New Creation (new heaven and earth). It will be something to see, God creating the New Heaven and New Earth.

All throughout the New Testament there are only two ages spoken of. Always two, not three.

This age = temporal, it will end

Age to come = Eternal

 

[MrJG]

Matthew 13, speaking of the parable of the wheat and tares, Christ later explains to the disciples what He meant. It is very interesting. Christ said the Kingdom of heaven is the world and the good seed are the sons of the Kingdom, and the One that sowed them is the Son of Man. The bad seed are the sons of the devil and the one that sowed them is the devil. On the Last Day Christ will gather His people to Himself and burn the rest. There is no mention of a millennium, only eternity after the Last Day. If there is a rapture, it will be on the Last Day. Why go to a clearly apocalyptic genre and read it literally, and completely dismiss the plain explanation of our Lord with respect to the Kingdom and the end of days as we know it and eternity? I only brought up this passage, but the Two Age's spoken of in the NT is also very enlightening.

Matthew 13:36-42

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”

He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.

The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil.

The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

He who has ears, let him hear.


After the close of the age and the judgment, the sons of the Kingdom enter the New Creation (new heaven and earth). It will be something to see, God creating the New Heaven and New Earth.

All throughout the New Testament there are only two ages spoken of. Always two, not three.

This age = temporal, it will end

Age to come = Eternal

Matthew 13 does not refer to the church or the rapture of the church because these parables are talking only about the Nation of Israel and God's plan for Israel. To use it to prove that there will be a post-tribulational rapture is taking it out of context. The Kingdom is Christ's Millennial Kingdom in which the nation of Israel will inhabit the earth with Christ ruling with a rod of iron. Christ did not say that the kingdom is the world, but that the field is the world.

We go to this "apocalyptic" passage because it tells us literally what will happen on earth after the rapture of the church, during the tribulation, and then on through Christ's Millennial reign on earth and then into eternity. As I said before, to try to take the parables of Matthew 13 and disprove a pre-trib rapture is applying them to the church and taking them out of context as these parables are meant for Israel.

 

[the particular baptist]

Matthew 13 does not refer to the church or the rapture of the church because these parables are talking only about the Nation of Israel and God's plan for Israel. To use it to prove that there will be a post-tribulational rapture is taking it out of context. The Kingdom is Christ's Millennial Kingdom in which the nation of Israel will inhabit the earth with Christ ruling with a rod of iron. Christ did not say that the kingdom is the world, but that the field is the world.

We go to this "apocalyptic" passage because it tells us literally what will happen on earth after the rapture of the church, during the tribulation, and then on through Christ's Millennial reign on earth and then into eternity. As I said before, to try to take the parables of Matthew 13 and disprove a pre-trib rapture is applying them to the church and taking them out of context as these parables are meant for Israel.

Sorry friend. The plain reading of the text is plain. What you are subscribing to is Scofield dispensationalism, and not the plain reading of the text. There is no scripture that plainly teaches a millennium. Christ is describing the Kingdom that He inaugurated with His first advent. He is describing the period between the first and second advent as being the Kingdom. That is the plain reading of the text because Christ says it is, He is the One expounding His parable, so its no longer a parable, but His plain description of what it means.

 

[The LORD's Minstrel]

17"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

If one is taken and the other stays,Look and see that the mother who is unsaved,her child will be and taken from her womb,while she remains.