Articles of Impeachment

[KCfromNC]

Schiff is making it sound like it’ll be ready when they return from thanksgiving.

Personally I think this rush is a mistake. Letting major witnesses get away with dodging subpoenas instead of taking it through the courts and forcing their testimonies just means the case ends up looking weaker than it otherwise could.

A different point of view is that the fast pace has made it harder for the usual suspects (GOP leadership, the RNC, Russian social media bots) to keep up with a narrative. As soon as they did so, the next day of testimony blew those talking points up - e.g. by the time they made up the hearsay spin, there were already 3 people with first hand knowledge testifying.

Keeping up the pace will continue to put pressure on the defense to think on their feet. And let's be honest - Donald winging it even more than usual isn't a good look for the people who want to defend him. c.f the Fox News "interview" where he confessed to a bunch of stuff.

 

[Bobber]

Schiff is making it sound like it’ll be ready when they return from thanksgiving.

Personally I think this rush is a mistake. Letting major witnesses get away with dodging subpoenas instead of taking it through the courts and forcing their testimonies just means the case ends up looking weaker than it otherwise could.

And there's a story told in a very wise book of a certain group of individuals who were building a building and found out they didn't have enough money to finish it. It warns that everyone would laugh and ridicule such ones how unwise and uninsightful they were. The builders had refused to calculate things correctly. Replace the word "money" with "time" the Dems have run out of time to do this right, that is of course if something needed to be done in the first place.

The point is if they were going to do something like this they should have done it right. They didn't. It somewhat reminds me of an old TV show called "Lost". They were told the clock was running out as further seasons were cancelled so they tried to answer all the questions to the mystery in about two shows....(of a 6 year series) Fans got ticked off and felt they were had with such a shoddy ending with no time to tie up loose ends of anything much!

Could the word LOST sum up and best describe the present party of the Dems? They were on an island they couldn't get off of the island being the desire to impeach the President from the first day he took office. They threw caution to the wind and perhaps now they'll reap the whirlwind.....that being Trump might win hands down in the 2020 election.

 

[Bobber]

So it looks like cracks are starting to appear in the whole idea of even impeaching the President. I'm guessing a lot more Dems will follow what Michigan Democratic Rep. Brenda Lawrence just announced. We'll see. So I suggest you change your poll question of this thread with another option of being NONE. That is there will be no Articles of Impeachment.

House Dem now sees no 'value' in impeachment, as polls show falling support among independents

 

[wing2000]

And there's a story told in a very wise book of a certain group of individuals who were building a building and found out they didn't have enough money to finish it. It warns that everyone would laugh and ridicule such ones how unwise and uninsightful they were. The builders had refused to calculate things correctly. Replace the word "money" with "time" the Dems have run out of time to do this right, that is of course if something needed to be done in the first place.

The point is if they were going to do something like this they should have done it right. They didn't. It somewhat reminds me of an old TV show called "Lost". They were told the clock was running out as further seasons were cancelled so they tried to answer all the questions to the mystery in about two shows....(of a 6 year series) Fans got ticked off and felt they were had with such a shoddy ending with no time to tie up loose ends of anything much!

Could the word LOST sum up and best describe the present party of the Dems? They were on an island they couldn't get off of the island being the desire to impeach the President from the first day he took office. They threw caution to the wind and perhaps now they'll reap the whirlwind.....that being Trump might win hands down in the 2020 election.

To do it right, the White House should cooperate. Instead, the President is clearly obstructing justice.

 

[Bobber]

To do it right, the White House should cooperate. Instead, the President is clearly obstructing justice.

Nope to do it right would have taken into consideration that a President might obviously have put forth executive privilege (as other Presidents have on things) and KNOWING that an impeachment process can be a lengthy endeavour. There's no excuse for them not taking that into consideration in what even one on your side of things here has called a rushed process. You don't rush in building something which is meant to be viewed as credible. You either do it right or you shouldn't do it. I'd say it will all come down to this in how it'll be viewed....a certain type of passion got a hold of the Dem party which overroaded any reasonable thinking. That'll be something they'll have to wear going into the 2020 election.

 

[GodLovesCats]

So it looks like cracks are starting to appear in the whole idea of even impeaching the President. I'm guessing a lot more Dems will follow what Michigan Democratic Rep. Brenda Lawrence just announced. We'll see. So I suggest you change your poll question of this thread with another option of being NONE. That is there will be no Articles of Impeachment.

That is not necessary. If you think no articles of impeachment will be written, you can simply not vote.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Nope to do it right would have taken into consideration that a President might obviously have put forth executive privilege (as other Presidents have on things) and KNOWING that an impeachment process can be a lengthy endeavour. There's no excuse for them not taking that into consideration in what even one on your side of things here has called a rushed process. You don't rush in building something which is meant to be viewed as credible. You either do it right or you shouldn't do it. I'd say it will all come down to this in how it'll be viewed....a certain type of passion got a hold of the Democratic party which overroaded any reasonable thinking. That'll be something they'll have to wear going into the 2020 election.

It is impossible to watch the hearings and think the Democrats are doing it wrong. Of course they know it is a long process. They wanted a longer hearing, but Trump prevented some witnesses from testifying, so it was not their fault that portion is over so fast. If you think there is no credible evidence you never read the phone call transcript SUMMARY.

 

[Bobber]

It is impossible to watch the hearings and think the Democrats are doing it wrong.

For the reason that are great many in the country don't agree with doesn't prove you proves IT IS POSSIBLE to watch it and think the Democrats are doing it wrong?

They wanted a longer hearing, but Trump prevented some witnesses from testifying, so it was not their fault that portion is over so fast.

A part of understanding how long something takes means you take into consideration the accused could put forth executive privilege and be willing to be patient and let it play out in the courts even waiting if need be for a Supreme Court decision on the legality of the EP claim.

If you think there is no credible evidence you never read the phone call transcript SUMMARY.

I'd say it's potential evidence but it still falls within a category of a speculative notion at just what the President's intent was. Legal scholars have basically said the same as well and remember you're innocent until proven guilty.

 

[GodLovesCats]

What do you mean the courts? Only the House of Representatives can do anything when the DOJ refuses, as it did, to take on the case against Trump. We are not talking about people who will be arrested and go to prison. We are talking about the President, who can only be impeached and convicted by Congress.

There is no question about his motive. Everyone knows it. First-hand witnesses testified he only wanted a public announcement Hunter Biden will be investigated. not the investigation itself, for political reasons. In fact, one of them went so far as to say he cared more about the announcement than Ukraine.

 

[GodLovesCats]

How many articles of impeachment do you think there will be?

 

[Bobber]

There is no question about his motive.

In a kangaroo court there's no question about motive.

Everyone knows it.

When are you going to accept that if you're going to use the term everyone that doesn't mean you have the liberty to exclude vast numbers of people who disagree with you?

 

[GodLovesCats]

What is a kangaroo court?

Everyone who disagrees with me is intentionally ignoring the facts. Have you found a single report that definitively proves Donald Trump's action were legal?

 

[hedrick]

I just read an interesting commentary in the NYTimes. It suggested that the best alternative now would be for the House to censure Trump. They have plenty of grounds to do so. Turning it over for the Senate to make a mockery of justice won't accomplish anything, and will cost the Democrats politically.

Suppose the Senate removes Trump. That just turns it over to Pence. It's looking like he was involved too. But no one will put up with a second impeachment.

 

[loveofourlord]

He has accomplished more in three years than either Obama and Clinton did in their two terms that they were elected to, twice, because they were not so good, so they were reelected. Sad really.

yeah....or maybe it's because republicans did everything to shut down obama, and what actual stuff did trump do?

 

[GodLovesCats]

I have never heard of censuring a president until maybe yesterday. What is it?

Yes, Mike Pence was also involved. But he does not tell lies on Twitter every day or go out of his way to make himself look stupid very often.

 

[loveofourlord]

I somewhat agree. The issue is that the Democrats want to get Impeachment -- no matter if they chose to impeach or not -- done before the end of the year. I clearly think they are looking to keep impeachment from being a major campaign issue, having it over before voting starts.

The issue is, if it goes to the Supreme Court, as all evidence suggests it will, then the hearings will likely drag at least into the summer -- after the primaries are finished. So, I can understand the Democrats not wanting to delay that long, and instead to just add an article for Obstruction of Justice.

OTOH, I do think they need to take a bit more time and issue subpoenas for Guiliani, Fruman, and Parnas; I also think they should see if they can get Bolton to testify since a lower court has ruled (I don't get the impression Bolton would appeal a decision he is required to testify). Parnas appears ready to testify and, I suspect, can add quite a bit into what actually happened in Ukraine.

maybe i'm wrong, but impeachment isn't something that goes to the supreme court, it's called a trial, but it's not a legal one and therefore doesn't go before supreme court.

 

[loveofourlord]

I have never heard of censuring a president until maybe yesterday. What is it?

isn't that when the republicans finally take trumps phone away before he impeaches himself any more?

 

[Arcangl86]

I have never heard of censuring a president until maybe yesterday. What is it?

So a censure is essentially a statement by one or both houses of Congress condemning actions taken by a member of the executive branch. It has absolutely no legal effect, but has only happened once before, and as such is considered a huge political blow.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Because Donald Trump's actions are high crimes including bribery it would be ridiuclous to not go through with impeachment.

 

[Arcangl86]

The Senate is never going to convict, and will then it into a show trial that they can use to boost their campaigns. I was actually against impeachment from the beginning because of it.