Arsenokoites

[Brennin]

And your assertions are without foundation

Nice attempt at dodging your previous false dichotomy.

 

[outlaw]

According to whom? Have you studied Ancient Greek? Have you verified this for yourself

Your pathetic appeal to personal authority aside….



You are the one who made the claim that the meaning of the compound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words….yet you have not shown that in ancient Greek the meaning all or any compound words are derived form the meaning of their component words. Unless you can show that ALL compound words in ancient Greek derive their meaning from the meanings of their component word there is no reasons to accept your assertion that arsenokoites means homosexual. Any exception to this would leave open the possibility that arsenokoites does not derive its meaning from the meaning of its component words.



If you are the expert you claim showing that in ancient Greek the meaning of all compound words are derived form the meaning of their component words shouldn’t be that difficult now should it?

Already been addressed.

Really? All I saw was you making unsupported assumptions

 

[Brennin]

[font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

kai meta arsenov ou koimhqhsh koithn gunaikov bdelugma gar estin

Note the Septuagint translates the Hebrew using the exact same words that Paul later forms into a compound word. How curious!
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[outlaw]

Still waiting for the authority to show us that ALL compound Greek words derive their meaning directly form their component words…strange how your avoiding that….

[font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

kai meta arsenov ou koimhqhsh koithn gunaikov bdelugma gar estin

Note the Septuagint translates the Hebrew using the exact same words that Paul later forms into a compound word. How curious!
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The trouble is arsen and koite ALSO appear in Leviticus 20:11: And if a man(arsen) lieth with(koites) his father's wife...Leviticus 20:12 if a man(arsen) lieth with(koites) his daugther-in-law...Leviticus 20:15 if a man(arsen) lay (koites) with a beast... and so on and so forth. If you're going to try to use this justification to "prove" it is properly referring to homosexuals in 1 Corinthians 6:9 (because arsen and koite appear in Leviticus 18:22) then you pretty much have to ignore the fact it doesn’t mean the same thing elsewhere in Leviticus.

 

[Brennin]

Your pathetic appeal to personal authority aside….



You are the one who made the claim that the meaning of the compound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words….yet you have not shown that in ancient Greek the meaning all or any compound words are derived form the meaning of their component words. Unless you can show that ALL compound words in ancient Greek derive their meaning from the meanings of their component word there is no reasons to accept your assertion that arsenokoites means homosexual.

Nonsense.

Any exception to this would leave open the possibility that arsenokoites does not derive its meaning from the meaning of its component words.

If you claim the meaning of arsenokoites is not based on its constituents then you must provide evidence to that end; otherwise it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it is meant to refer to exactly that which its constituents suggests it refers to.

If you are the expert you claim showing that in ancient Greek the meaning of all compound words are derived form the meaning of their component words shouldn’t be that difficult now should it?

You are wasting my time.

 

[Brennin]

Still waiting for the authority to show us that ALL compound Greek words derive their meaning directly form their component words…strange how your avoiding that….

That has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, sorry.

The trouble is arsen and koite ALSO appear in Leviticus 20:11: And if a man(arsen) lieth with(koites) his father's wife...Leviticus 20:12 if a man(arsen) lieth with(koites) his daugther-in-law...Leviticus 20:15 if a man(arsen) lay (koites) with a beast... and so on and so forth. If you're going to try to use this justification to "prove" it is properly referring to homosexuals in 1 Corinthians 6:9 (because arsen and koite appear in Leviticus 18:22) then you pretty much have to ignore the fact it doesn’t mean the same thing elsewhere in Leviticus.

There is no trouble here. The point is that Paul most likely lifted those words straight from Leviticus to form a compound word that literally refers to those who lie with men, which is an idiom unique to Judaism and Christianity.

 

[TheGMan]

Deconstructing compounds is generally a more sound strategy in Greek than English. It is probably a fair guess that arsenokoitai has something to do with sexual relations with or by males. Can we get from there to an unambiguous "any male who has sexual relations with another male"? I doubt it.

But what I really don't get is this: arsenokoitai is a plural first declension noun. It appears, in 1 Corinthians 6:9 as without an article. The word koitai, without the arseno- prefix, is feminine. Most first declension nouns in Greek are. This isn't to say that arsenokoitai can't be interpreted as a masculine noun but a more usual construction would be along the lines of koitos that Brennin has referenced on the first page. If forced to guess, I'd guess that arsenokoitai was a feminine plural and not referring to males at all.

 

[outlaw]

Nonsense.

Yes, your appeal to personal authority is nonsense….glad we can agree on something.



Back to the topic at hand:

You have made the claim that you are the expert in ancient Greek and anyone who disagrees with you is “ignorant/deluded or prevaricating” http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=21556223&postcount=6



You made the claim (as the aforementioned expert) the meaning of the compound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words. yet you have not shown that in ancient Greek the meaning all or any compound words are derived form the meaning of their component words. Unless you can show that ALL compound words in ancient Greek derive their meaning from the meanings of their component word there is no reasons to accept your assertion that arsenokoites means homosexual.

If you claim the meaning of arsenokoites is not based on its constituents then you must provide evidence to that end; otherwise it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it is meant to refer to exactly that which its constituents suggests it refers to.

But you are the one who started this thread with the unsupported claim that the meaning of the compound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words. You have been asked several times to support that claim…all you have done is announce that you are an authority and anyone who dares to disagree with you is wrong. You have been asked multiple times to provide evidence that in Ancient Greek the meaning of a compound word is always derived form the meanings of its component words…you have failed repeatedly to do so.

You are wasting my time.

If you cannot back up your claims then just say so….

 

[MemeBuster]

Why does this discussion matter at all?

It really doesn't.

Religious worldviews not only affect our culture and social norms, but they are also affected by them. Currently our culture is becoming increasingly accepting of homosexuals and this will pressure religions to follow the culture and accept homosexual. They can either do that or become irrelevant.

This has already been happening in several denomination, e.g. Anglicans, Methodist, Lutherans.

So, it doesn't really matter what it says in the Bible, because people learn to change with times and eventually abandon outdated and prejudicial traditions and beliefs.

Few centuries ago people used the Bible to treat women like property. Then our culture and social norms changed and the theologians quietly started to interpret those verses differently in order to conform with the new norms. Fifty years from now people will be interpreting the Bible differently and religions would be far less hostile to homosexuals.

What's important to note is that, contrary to the belief of religious people who have seen change in apocalyptic and good-vs-evil terms for millennia, this will not trigger the end of the world.


MB.

 

[outlaw]

Deconstructing compounds is generally a more sound strategy in Greek than English. It is probably a fair guess that arsenokoitai has something to do with sexual relations with or by males. Can we get from there to an unambiguous "any male who has sexual relations with another male"? I doubt it.

But what I really don't get is this: arsenokoitai is a plural first declension noun. It appears, in 1 Corinthians 6:9 as without an article. The word koitai, without the arseno- prefix, is feminine. Most first declension nouns in Greek are. This isn't to say that arsenokoitai can't be interpreted as a masculine noun but a more usual construction would be along the lines of koitos that Brennin has referenced on the first page. If forced to guess, I'd guess that arsenokoitai was a feminine plural and not referring to males at all.

Interesting.



If we add this to the evidence that arsenokoites means one who financially exploits others and place it in a sexual situation we get, in modern vernacular, a pimp or a madam.

 

[Brennin]

You made the claim (as the aforementioned expert) the meaning of the compound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words. yet you have not shown that in ancient Greek the meaning all or any compound words are derived form the meaning of their component words. Unless you can show that ALL compound words in ancient Greek derive their meaning from the meanings of their component word there is no reasons to accept your assertion that arsenokoites means homosexual.

I do not need to, your fallacious claim notwithstanding. Moreover, I have provided five examples of compound words with a¹rsen in them whose definitions are derived directly from their constituents. By way of contrast, you have provided precisely nothing.

But you are the one who started this thread with the unsupported claim that the meaning of the compound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words. You have been asked several times to support that claim…all you have done is announce that you are an authority and anyone who dares to disagree with you is wrong.

That is not correct.

You have been asked multiple times to provide evidence that in Ancient Greek the meaning of a compound word is always derived form the meanings of its component words…you have failed repeatedly to do so.

That is because it is a ridiculous request that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


There comes a time when one needs to leave the obtuse to wallow in their errors and that time has arrived for me.

 

[wblastyn]

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There is no trouble here. The point is that Paul most likely lifted those words straight from Leviticus to form a compound word that literally refers to those who lie with men, which is an idiom unique to Judaism and Christianity.

I believe someone else pointed this out - so straight women are an abomination too?

 

[ebia]

[/font][/size][/color] I do not need to, your fallacious claim notwithstanding. Moreover, I have provided five examples of compound words with a¹rsen in them whose definitions are derived directly from their constituents.

Examples can't prove a rule, only disprove it. Do you admit that the meaning of compound words in Greek can not always be accurately worked out from their parts?

So far your evidence seems to consist of:

• Some compound words in Greek can be derived from their parts
• An assumption that this is such a word
• An assumption that this word is specifically alluding to Lev 18:22 when the same compound parts appear in other sexual verses of Lev.
• Repeated assertions that anyone who fails to be convinced is doing so to annoy you and/or is an idiot.

 

[Brennin]

Examples can't prove a rule, only disprove it.

These are not just any five examples; they are all the examples containing a¹rsen apart from a¹rsenokoiðthv I could find in the best Greek lexicon there is.

So far your evidence seems to consist of:

• Some compound words in Greek can be derived from their parts
• An assumption that this is such a word

As I posted previously:

If you claim the meaning of arsenokoites is not based on its constituents then you must provide evidence to that end; otherwise it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it is meant to refer to exactly that which its constituents suggests it refers to.

Also, I refer you to the NT scholar I linked to previously:

Immoralism, Homosexual Unhealth, and Scripture

There are at least four other legitimate sources I could name off the top of my head that support my conclusion.

• An assumption that this word is specifically alluding to Lev 18:22 when the same compound parts appear in other sexual verses of Lev.

That makes absolutely no difference. The words mean the same thing elsewhere (i.e., "lie with a man") and as I said previously:

There is no trouble here. The point is that Paul most likely lifted those words straight from Leviticus to form a compound word that literally refers to those who lie with men, which is an idiom unique to Judaism and Christianity.

• Repeated assertions that anyone who fails to be convinced is doing so to annoy you and/or is an idiot.

Thou sayest.

 

[TheGMan]

If you claim the meaning of arsenokoites is not based on its constituents then you must provide evidence to that end; otherwise it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it is meant to refer to exactly that which its constituents suggests it refers to.

I don't think that's what it being disputed. It probably does have something to do with "lying with males". What makes you think that Paul specifically means "any male who has sexual relations with another male"?

 

[ebia]

These are not just any five examples; they are all the examples containing a¹rsen apart from a¹rsenokoiðthv I could find in the best Greek lexicon there is.

They are still just examples without evidence that compound words always behave in a particular way. Straight question: do you acknowledge that compound words in Greek do not always behave in this way?

As I posted previously:

If you claim the meaning of arsenokoites is not based on its constituents then you must provide evidence to that end; otherwise it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it is meant to refer to exactly that which its constituents suggests it refers to.

Also, I refer you to the NT scholar I linked to previously:

Immoralism, Homosexual Unhealth, and Scripture

There are at least four other legitimate sources I could name off the top of my head that support my conclusion.

Ok, some other people agree with you. And some others don't.

That makes absolutely no difference. The words mean the same thing elsewhere (i.e., "lie with a man") and as I said previously:

There is no trouble here. The point is that Paul most likely lifted those words straight from Leviticus to form a compound word that literally refers to those who lie with men, which is an idiom unique to Judaism and Christianity.

I.e. it's talking about some aspect of sex - I don't think anyone is disputing that.

Thou sayest.

You want me to quote you?

 

[SimplyMe]

1) "The Shadow Minister" is not a compound word, nor is it Ancient Greek

2) Mailman, policeman, fireman, fisherman, newspaper, doghouse, etc.

So by your explainations, it is obvious that arednokoites means a man (or men) that lie in bed -- an obvious reference to laziness.

 

[outlaw]

[/font][/size][/color] I do not need to, your fallacious claim notwithstanding. Moreover, I have provided five examples of compound words with a¹rsen in them whose definitions are derived directly from their constituents. By way of contrast, you have provided precisely nothing.

Which is evidence of…well aside from your desperation to justify your petty personal prejudice it is evidence of absolutely nothing.

That is not correct.

Then you are willing and able to actually support your claim that meaning of thecompound word arsenokoites is derived from the meaning of its component words.





Well







Go ahead





We are all waiting for that proof….

That is because it is a ridiculous request that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Pretending it has nothing to do with your claim is childish and shows that you are well aware of the truth. Unless you can show that in ancient Greek compound words and in particular the word arsenokoites derives its meaning form the meaning of its two component words then your “expert” assertion that arsenokoites means homosexual is without foundation particularly in the light of the use of the word in extra biblical context.

There comes a time when one needs to leave the obtuse to wallow in their errors and that time has arrived for me.

Have fun wallowing…

 

[outlaw]

Examples can't prove a rule, only disprove it. Do you admit that the meaning of compound words in Greek can not always be accurately worked out from their parts?

So far your evidence seems to consist of:

• Some compound words in Greek can be derived from their parts
• An assumption that this is such a word
• An assumption that this word is specifically alluding to Lev 18:22 when the same compound parts appear in other sexual verses of Lev.
• Repeated assertions that anyone who fails to be convinced is doing so to annoy you and/or is an idiot.

That is a pretty good summary of the evidence Brennin presented so far

 

[Aimee30]

koitos

a place to lie on, bed

Entry in LSJ or Middle Liddell or Autenrieth

koite
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koitos , ho, keimai)

A. resting-place, bed, koitoio medômetha Od.3.334 , cf. 2.358; hoi d' epi koiton esseuonto 14.455 ; stugeros d' hupedexato k., of birds, 22.470; stall, fold, Arat.1116; apagein epi koiton pen, Longus 1.8.

II. sleep, epên nux elthêi, helêisi te k. hapantas Od.19.515 ; koitoio hôrê bed-time, ib.510; ep' êoa k. lying abed till dawn, Hes.Op. 574; ton hupaspidion koiton iauein sleep under arms, E.Rh.740 (lyr.); k. poieesthai go to bed, Hdt.7.17; es k. pareinai Id.1.9 .

Can I have the web site?
So sleeping is the same as lying with?