Arrr! Assuming Trinitarianism.

[TheGenuineChristian]

I every now and then run across a Trinitarian accusing me of 'assuming Unitarianism.' So here's my response: When Yeshua says 'my God' (Mat 27:46; Rev 3:12) how many persons is he calling 'his God' (hint; Jhn 20:17). When the Apostles talk about 'the God of our Lord Yeshua' (Eph. 1:17 for example) how many persons are they calling 'his God' (hint; Col. 1:3). So, Yeshua's God only contains one person; the Father. Thus I will be like Rabbi Yeshua and have the same God that he has; the Father instead of a Trinity.

I'm some what shocked that Trinitarians can't comprehend that no one in the Old Testament was a 'Trinitarian.' In fact, the Apostles themselves testify to their Unitarian view of God, all one needs to do is just go read the Book of Acts and see how God and how Jesus is presented to the people.

So, where is this all powerful verse at that says 'there is one God who is three persons'? It is the Trinitarians who assume Trinitarianism for they have to build up their triune god like kids playing legos building up a house. Some still aren't fully informed and present 1 John 5:7-8 of a sixteenth-century production, made to order, that made it's way into such versions as the 'King James Bible.' What needs to be done is for Trinitarian to first prove their 'triune god' is in fact the God of the Bible before they can go on accusing someone of 'assuming Unitarianism.' So where is your proof of a 'triune god' Trinitarians?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I every now and then run across a Trinitarian accusing me of 'assuming Unitarianism.' So here's my response: When Yeshua says 'my God' (Mat 27:46; Rev 3:12) how many persons is he calling 'his God' (hint; Jhn 20:17). When the Apostles talk about 'the God of our Lord Yeshua' (Eph. 1:17 for example) how many persons are they calling 'his God' (hint; Col. 1:3). So, Yeshua's God only contains one person; the Father. Thus I will be like Rabbi Yeshua and have the same God that he has; the Father instead of a Trinity.

I'm some what shocked that Trinitarians can't comprehend that no one in the Old Testament was a 'Trinitarian.' In fact, the Apostles themselves testify to their Unitarian view of God, all one needs to do is just go read the Book of Acts and see how God and how Jesus is presented to the people.

So, where is this all powerful verse at that says 'there is one God who is three persons'? It is the Trinitarians who assume Trinitarianism for they have to build up their triune god like kids playing legos building up a house. Some still aren't fully informed and present 1 John 5:7-8 of a sixteenth-century production, made to order, that made it's way into such versions as the 'King James Bible.' What needs to be done is for Trinitarian to first prove their 'triune god' is in fact the God of the Bible before they can go on accusing someone of 'assuming Unitarianism.' So where is your proof of a 'triune god' Trinitarians?

I'm not Unitarian, but I whole-heartedly agree. Trinity gets a "bye" because it is default orthodox dogma propagated by indoctrination and fear of anathematization.

There IS no proof for a Trinity of three "persons", because it is strictly and eisegetically read into the text by inference of deducation and conclusion. It doesn't even qualifiy as interpretation, since "persons" isn't present in the text to be exegeted.

However... Inference will be considered "proof" by listing "attributes that prove the HS is a person", and by references to the baptism and the Gethsemane prayer, etc.

God is not three conjoined transcendent triplets with one who hypostasized.

 

[The Gnostic]

I am not a trinitarian and consider it a very false ddoctrine that is taught by old traditions.
Yeshua also said His father is GREATER than himself.When using only the words Yeshua spoke one cannot arrive at the Trinity doctrine.

 

[gort]

I am not a trinitarian and consider it a very false ddoctrine that is taught by old traditions.
Yeshua also said His father is GREATER than himself.When using only the words Yeshua spoke one cannot arrive at the Trinity doctrine.

If Jesus made himself of no reputation, made lower than the angels, it is not difficult to see that Jesus would indeed consider the Father greater than himself.

If we use the words of John we find that the logos was God, so there you have 2 persons of the trinity. The 3rd person is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Albion]

I'm some what shocked that Trinitarians can't comprehend that no one in the Old Testament was a 'Trinitarian.'

None were Christians, either. I don't see that this proves anything special.

In fact, the Apostles themselves testify to their Unitarian view of God

??

So, where is this all powerful verse at that says 'there is one God who is three persons'?

It's actually the inescapable conclusion derived from several verses. Noting special about that either.

It is the Trinitarians who assume Trinitarianism for they have to build up their triune god like kids playing legos building up a house.

Oh no. Whichever side one is on, that isn't correct to say.



God is One. Agreed?

Father is God. Agreed?

Son is God. Son implies that he is God, so much so that he's accused of blasphemy by the Jews.

Holy Spirit is God.

Son and Holy Spirit both are described with personal pronouns, not as illusions, analogies, or the like.

Trinity is either real or the Bible is not inspired by God.

 

[The Gnostic]

Trinity is either real or the Bible is not inspired by God.

What??????

I don't see how one has anything to do with the other.It most likely is just an "interpretation" problem on the trinitarians part.

Suppose at Jesus Baptism the Holy Spirit ( an essense of God) possessed the physical Jesus and spoke through him.This would explane pretty much ever verse trinitarians use to prove a trinity exist.

 

[rturner76]

I am beginning to hold the non-trinitarian view myself but it is banned here in the forums so I don't speak on it much. Just wanted to show support. Jesus never spoke of a trinity. It is just accepted with Paul's letters as fact. Jesus said to question your teachers. We are his sheep not the local Pastor's sheep believeing whatever they say.

 

[The Gnostic]

I am beginning to hold the non-trinitarian view myself but it is banned here in the forums so I don't speak on it much. Just wanted to show support. Jesus never spoke of a trinity. It is just accepted with Paul's letters as fact. Jesus said to question your teachers. We are his sheep not the local Pastor's sheep believeing whatever they say.

In this unorthodox theology it is openly discussed as you can see if you wondered through the various topics.It is not allowed in other places in this forum.

 

[cimbk]

The way I see it, God sent His Son, like any Father if you love His Son He will love you, the Son sent The Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, If I follow the Holy Spirit, and Love the Son, It doesn't matter which one of them are God as they will all be satisfied with my giving praise and worship to God the Father and to His Son, and to the work of His Holy Spirit

 

[Shane R]

I am trinitarian, but not in the sense of the Nicene creed. The key is what is meant by the term 'proceed'. Many theologians have used that to un-personify or devalue the Holy Spirit (perhaps first represented in Novation's Treatise on the Trinity. This one line of the creed has created many a theological debate (Modalism, the filioque question, the person-hood of the Holy Spirit).

There is obviously a hierarchy to the deity. Father over all, Son pre-eminent but submissive to Father, Holy Spirit submissive to Father and Son. Yet all are credited with divine attributes. This is a trinity and a mystery.

 

[Albion]

I am trinitarian, but not in the sense of the Nicene creed. The key is what is meant by the term 'proceed'. Many theologians have used that to un-personify or devalue the Holy Spirit (perhaps first represented in Novation's Treatise on the Trinity. This one line of the creed has created many a theological debate (Modalism, the filioque question, the person-hood of the Holy Spirit).

There is obviously a hierarchy to the deity. Father over all, Son pre-eminent but submissive to Father, Holy Spirit submissive to Father and Son. Yet all are credited with divine attributes. This is a trinity and a mystery.

That doesn't seem to go against what the Creed states. The personality of the HG is solidly affirmed by both Council and Creed. No?

 

[Shane R]

It does not go against the creed, but it goes against the perception of the creed which many teachers have. Again, the key is what is meant by 'proceeds'.

 

[Albion]

It does not go against the creed, but it goes against the perception of the creed which many teachers have. Again, the key is what is meant by 'proceeds'.

Yeh, I get that, but it's usually explained by any orthodox Christian of whatever denomination in the way that you did.

 

[GuardianShua]

In this unorthodox theology it is openly discussed as you can see if you wondered through the various topics.It is not allowed in other places in this forum.

I see that you call yourself a Gnostic. Did you know that the Gnostics were, and are, Trinitarians? The only Christian non-trins were the Judizing Christians. Judaism never has taught Trinitarianism as a truth. That would have been punishable by death.

 

[cupid dave]

So where is your proof of a 'triune god' Trinitarians?

By definition.

Since Christ = Truth (as an ideal)
... his father is Reality.


Man can not tell the Truth he forms in his mind from the external Reality he is trapped within.

They ARE one and the same for him.




TRINITY:
Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, the Almighty Reality, within which we all exist.

 

[TheGenuineChristian]

I am beginning to hold the non-trinitarian view myself but it is banned here in the forums so I don't speak on it much.

Then let me let you along with my υπερμονοθεϊσμός playlist.

 

[TheGenuineChristian]

It's actually the inescapable conclusion derived from several verses.

God is One. Agreed?

Father is God. Agreed?

Son is God. Son implies that he is God, so much so that he's accused of blasphemy by the Jews.

Holy Spirit is God.

Son and Holy Spirit both are described with personal pronouns, not as illusions, analogies, or the like.

Trinity is either real or the Bible is not inspired by God.

1) It's only an "inescapable conclusion" to those who A) Don't research the textual criticism B) don't comprehend the actual context C) lack Bible knowledge as a whole D) lack knowledge of Hebrew and Greek E) accept illogical as logical.

2) Agreed, God is not [person] and not three [persons].

3) Agreed, the only true God is the Father and no one else (1 Thessalonioans 1:9-10, John 17:3, 1 John 5:20, John 7:28, John 8:26).

4) The Son was a god (John 1:1, 1:18, 20:28) who had a God (John 20:17, Revelation 3:12, Hebrews 1:8-9), thereby is not Yhvh who is God of gods (Deuteronomy 10:17).

5) The Holy Spirit is nothing more than the Presence that the Father resides in (Psalm 51:11, 139:7). And just for kicks, show me at least one verse where the Holy Spirit speaks by itself not through someone.

6) Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

7) The doctrine of the trinity is plain paganism that no one in the Bible hinted to or supports.

 

[TheGenuineChristian]

The way I see it, God sent His Son, like any Father if you love His Son He will love you, the Son sent The Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, If I follow the Holy Spirit, and Love the Son, It doesn't matter which one of them are God as they will all be satisfied with my giving praise and worship to God the Father and to His Son, and to the work of His Holy Spirit

Why in your "triune god" is the father person called "father" and the son person called "son"? If I would have a twin I surely wouldn't call him "son" nor would he call me "father."

 

[TheGenuineChristian]

This is a trinity and a mystery.

There's a difference between "mystery" and "contradiction" and the doctrine of the trinity is surely the latter.

 

[TheGenuineChristian]

The only Christian non-trins were the Judizing Christians. Judaism never has taught Trinitarianism as a truth. That would have been punishable by death.

Reference: NumbersUrk. 33 Doc. 28 CPG 2041
Incipit: Τοὺς πονηροὺς καὶ ἀσεβεῖς
Date: 333
Ancient source used: Athanasius, Defense of the Nicene Definition 39
Modern edition used: H-G. Opitz, Athanasius Werke, vol. 2.1 (Berlin: De Gruyter, 1940).
Other ancient Greek sources: Socrates, Church History 1.9.30 and Gelasius, Church History 2.36.1
Ancient Syriac sources: 2 manuscripts: Brit. Mus. Add. 14,528 and Vatican Borg. Syr. 82
Modern edition of Syriac: Fredrich Schulthess, “Die syrischen Kanones der Synoden von Nicaea bis Chalcedon.” Abhandlungen der Königlichen Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften zu Göttingen, Philologisch-Historische Klasse N.F. 10, no. 2 (Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung, 1908) pp. 1-2

The great and victorious Constantine Augustus to the bishops and laity:

Since Arius is an imitator of the wicked and the ungodly, it is only right that he should suffer the same dishonor as they. Porphyry, who was hostile to anyone who feared God, composed a book which transgressed against our religion, and has found a suitable reward: namely that he has been disgraced from that time onward, his reputation is completely terrible, and his ungodly writings have been destroyed. In the same way it seems appropriate that Arius and those of like mind with Arius should from now on be called Porphyrians, so that their name is taken from those whose ways they have imitated. In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offense, he shall be submitted for capital punishment.

And in another hand:

God will watch over you, beloved brothers.