Arrr! Assuming Trinitarianism.

[Ronald]

Well… just because Catholics and Protestants believe in something, it doesn’t make it true.

Correct, it's just that since the Church began, it has been a core belief regardless of other differences in doctrine. It is scriptural. Scripture supports itself.

You imply that God is in need of relationship. God is not in need of anything. God desires relationship. That’s why God created living beings.

Don't misread what I said as "tongue in cheek", however, The Father had a relationship with the Son before creation. He had a relationship. BTW, the Holy Spirit was hovering in the beginning as well. Elohim is a plural form or God, signifying the Trinity. "Let US make man in OUR image" -- he wasn't talking to the angles. Jesus said, " I will ask the Father and He will give you ANOTHER HELPER ..."John 14:16 If the other helper (Holy Spirit) was the Father, then why was the distinction made by Jesus himself?

We agree in that there is but one divine Spirit. However, I don’t see this Almighty God as having co-equals.

Jesus was crucified on the cross because the Pharisees accused him of putting himself equal with God. "I and my Father are one". Since Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Col.1:16,17) and is glorified by the Father and the Holy Spirit AND given ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and earth, I think that qualifies him as being ALL MIGHTY GOD. And since the Holy Spirit is all that God is, and they are one, well you can see why this core belief has been around for a long time.

Therefore, we see the God at work in a spiritual mode of existence. This doesn’t negate truth that the very same God is in Christ, and that Jesus Christ is seated in Heaven, raised and glorified. This also doesn’t negate the fact that God was, is, and always will be our creator, the Father of the Son of God…yet another mode of existence.

Sabellius was heretic. The primary flaw of modalism, that one God manifests himslef in different modes, is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist simultaneously, have always existed and the idea that Jesus is seated next to the Father in heaven now while the Holy Spirit is within us is evident. We are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I can give many examples where they were present simultaneously.

 

[Christopher0121]

Correct, it's just that since the Church began, it has been a core belief regardless of other differences in doctrine. It is scriptural. Scripture supports itself.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God. I think the major differences in Christology is the debate regarding “how” Jesus is God.

Don't misread what I said as "tongue in cheek", however, The Father had a relationship with the Son before creation. He had a relationship. BTW, the Holy Spirit was hovering in the beginning as well. Elohim is a plural form or God, signifying the Trinity. "Let US make man in OUR image" -- he wasn't talking to the angles. Jesus said, " I will ask the Father and He will give you ANOTHER HELPER ..."John 14:16 If the other helper (Holy Spirit) was the Father, then why was the distinction made by Jesus himself?

I’ve never really gotten a clear answer from a Trinitarian on this. How is Trinitarianism different from having three Gods? You have three “divine persons” in relationship, etc.

The Elohim argument doesn’t really hold much water. You see, the term was being used by the Jews for thousands of years before Christ. Most rabbinical Jews would explain the term as follows:
The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha). The same word (or, according to Rambam, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and His attributes of justice and rulership. Variations on this Name include El, Eloha, Elohai (my God) and Elohaynu (our God). (From Judaism:101)

So… the Jews saw no issue with using the term Elohim to denote God’s might, creative powers, and many attributes. In fact, the term is used for individual human beings! LOL Not to mention, when speaking of Elohim we say “Him”… not “them”. So the Jews NEVER got the “Trinity” from this text. In fact, I was married into a Jewish family. When speaking to a local rabbi about God he expressed that Trinitarianism is too narrow. He said it limits God to three manifestations. Whereas God has no limitations. He is God. The rabbi also explained Elohim as pointing to the many divine names of God that express His nature and attributes. And I don’t know of a single Jew who believes that God is a Trinity.
Jesus said something VERY interesting when talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus said,

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
​

Here’s a good question. If Jesus Himself tells us that the Jews “KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP”, why didn’t they believe in a Trinity??? Why don’t they today???

I’ll trust a Jew with the Hebrew language than some theological lap dog who has sold his soul to “orthodoxy”.

Lastly on this point, the phrase “another helper” found in John 14:16 denotes “another of the same to help” in the actual Greek. Jesus wasn’t saying it would be another “person”. Jesus was saying that it would be the very same God seen in Himself revealed to them in another way.

Jesus was crucified on the cross because the Pharisees accused him of putting himself equal with God. "I and my Father are one". Since Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Col.1:16,17) and is glorified by the Father and the Holy Spirit AND given ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and earth, I think that qualifies him as being ALL MIGHTY GOD. And since the Holy Spirit is all that God is, and they are one, well you can see why this core belief has been around for a long time.

Actually, you should read the exchange, they didn’t get angry because Christ’s words made him “equal” to God, they were angered because his words implied that while he was a man… he was also God. Period. Let’s read it:

John 10:30-33
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
​

Jesus didn’t merely claim to be “equal to God”. Jesus claimed to … BE GOD.

Sabellius was heretic. The primary flaw of modalism, that one God manifests himslef in different modes, is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist simultaneously, have always existed and the idea that Jesus is seated next to the Father in heaven now while the Holy Spirit is within us is evident. We are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I can give many examples where they were present simultaneously.

I’m not big on classical modalism. It’s clear that God was revealed as Father, through the Logos, and as Spirit from all eternity. I don’t believe in a sequential modalism.

TO BE CONTINUED...

 

[Christopher0121]

CONTINUED....

We are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I can give many examples where they were present simultaneously.

Ah, but I think you mislead our readers. You will not find a single instance of triune baptismal formula in Scripture. In fact, let’s look at when baptism is mentioned and described in the book of Acts where one would expect to find a formula:

(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 10:44-48 KJV)
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)
(1)And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Acts 22:16 KJV)
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
​

You will note, there isn’t a single reference to Matthew 28:19 being repeated over one being water baptized. People were simply baptized in the single name of Jesus Christ. Even many religious encyclopedias admit this. Let’s review:

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1951). II, 384, 389: "The formula used was "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" or some synonymous phrase; there is no evidence for the use of the triune name… The earliest form, represented in the Acts, was simple immersion… in water, the use of the name of the Lord, and the laying on of hands. To these were added, at various times and places which cannot be safely identified, (a) the triune name (Justin)…"

Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351: "The evidence… suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Otto Heick, A History of Christian Thought (1965), I, 53: "At first baptism was administered in the name of Jesus, but gradually in the name of the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241: "[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (1947), page 58: "The trinitarian baptismal formula,,, was displacing the older baptism in the name of Christ."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435: "The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus… which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."

Canney's Encyclopedia of Religions (1970), page 53: "Persons were baptized at first 'in the name of Jesus Christ' … or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus'… Afterwards, with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity, they were baptized 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473: "It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365: "The trinitarian formula and triune immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning… Baptism into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."
​

Now, tell me this…why don’t Trinitarians baptism in the singular name of Jesus Christ as found in Scripture and history? Did you know that the baptismal formula was essentially “changed” by Trinitarian theologians to combat anti-Trinitarians? Why perpetuate the lie? It’s real simple…. The term Father isn’t a name. The term Son isn’t a name. And the term Holy Spirit isn’t a name. However, Jesus is the Son of God, the Father’s own manifestation in human flesh, the one who rose from the dead a glorified Spirit and is poured out on believers. That’s why the Holy Ghost is called the “Spirit of Christ” in the Epistles! One God, in three modes of existence. And this God was manifest to us in the very person of Jesus Christ. Therefore, to merely repeat Matthew 28:19 isn’t to obey it. One has only be baptized “in the name” of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost if they have been water baptized in the singular name of Jesus Christ.

 

[2ducklow]

Jesus is a man, he isn't God, and he isn't a god. God is a spirit, and Jesus is not a spirit.

read it and weap and ignore it.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

now christians change the word spirit to ghost or phantem. that's your way around this truth.The rule is if a verse doesn't fit your doctrine, then change the words in it.

oh here's another good one.



Rotherham) John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her--Be not detaining me, for, not yet, have I ascended unto the Father; but be going unto my disciples, and say unto them--I am ascending unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

So since you guys think JEsus is God, Jesus was saying, according to your reasoning , that he was ascending to himself Who but an idiot says " i ascend to myself."? And why didn't anyone ask him how he could ascend to himself? Why doesn't the bible explain how Jesus ascended to himself? I know I know, the mystery of god. explains everything. Never mind that hte word mystery isn't in the bible, never mind that christians changed the greek word that means secret or sacred secret to "mystery'. the rule is change the meaning of any word in the bible to fit doctrine and put it in the word of God.

Note how most all bibles change the greek word that means detain to "touch me not". normal in bible translations. Now for you novices, the way you get around all these truths I've brought you here is to ignore everything I've said and talk about something totally different. works like a charm.

 

[Ronald]

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God. I think the major differences in Christology is the debate regarding “how” Jesus is God.

That's like asking how did God come into being. That He was always with the Father is as far as the finite mind can conceive. Do you think He was a created being?

I’ve never really gotten a clear answer from a Trinitarian on this. How is Trinitarianism different from having three Gods? You have three “divine persons” in relationship, etc.

In Hinduism, there are many gods. Actually, they don't exist, but for the purpose of discussion to make my point, imagine that they do. They all have different abilities, purposes, etc. no two are the same. As in Roman or Greek mythology, each god had a different purpose, since they could not have the same.
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are exactly alike and have the same power, knowledge and purpose, being ONE. We are told to be of one mind, like minded, Christ-like.

The Elohim argument doesn’t really hold much water.

If that's all there was, I would be agreeing with you. I noticed that you didn't comment on the "let us make man in our image" or "behold, man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil." Or the many verses which include all three.
Oh boy, so much about Elohim, you are in denial that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present during the creation simultaneously. If you say the Son was not or was just a mode of God's existence when he was born then you are blind to who He is, the creator. (John 1:3. Col.1:16, 17) What is your take on those verses?

Here’s a good question. If Jesus Himself tells us that the Jews “KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP”, why didn’t they believe in a Trinity??? Why don’t they today???

They are blinded. They did not understand many things about God. Jesus revealed and fulfilled many things but they rejected Him. If you trust a Jews theology, you'll miss out, all their blanks haven't been filled and they are still waiting for their Messiah -- who has already come.

Lastly on this point, the phrase “another helper” found in John 14:16 denotes “another of the same to help” in the actual Greek.

The Holy Spirit is refered to by Jesus as "He", "Ekeinos" . He is a person and has all the qualities of a person: speaks, hears, knows, comforts, has volition, emotions, etc. He glorifies the Son. So you are saying that when He is doing this, He is glorying himself in a different mode? LOL

 

[Ronald]

Aquila,
I think you have been deceived into believing modalism and to believe this, you have to deny much truth about the Bible that you are not willing to address. You'll just stick with your selective arguments which doesn't hold water with any scholar, because it is not scholarly, it is flawed in concept and weak in argument. I really don't think we will change each others minds about this. So, we'll meet again, ater ... on the next topic.

 

[2ducklow]

Aquila,
I think you have been deceived into believing modalism and to believe this, you have to deny much truth about the Bible that you are not willing to address.

change the word to trinity, and it applies to you, you guys are thus in the same boat. modalism is just another form of trinity. Every variant of trinity is considered heresy by every other variant of trinity.

 

[he-man]

Aquila,

I think you have been deceived into believing modalism and to believe this, you have to deny much truth about the Bible that you are not willing to address.

You should listen to Aquila's arguments. Which one do you not agree with?

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1951). II, 384, 389: "The formula used was "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" or some synonymous phrase; there is no evidence for the use of the triune name… The earliest form, represented in the Acts, was simple immersion… in water, the use of the name of the Lord, and the laying on of hands. To these were added, at various times and places which cannot be safely identified, (a) the triune name (Justin)…"

Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351: "The evidence… suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241: "[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435: "The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus… which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473: "It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365: "The trinitarian formula and triune immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning… Baptism into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."

At first the Christian Faith was not Trinitarian. . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings. The Encyclopedia of Religion And Ethics

Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity. The Encyclopedia of Religion

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament. . . "is not. . . directly and immediately the word of God." The New Catholic Encyclopedia

There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. . . Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers. Jesuit Edmund Fortman The "Triune God"

Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament. The Encyclopedia of Religion The New Encyclopedia Britannica

The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology

To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it. Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins "Origin and Evolution of Religion"

Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord. Historian Arthur Weigall "The Paganism in Our Christianity"

‘Newton laid the blame for the rise of the pagan doctrines about demons in the Church at the door of his ecclesiastical nemesis Athanasius, whom he also saw as responsible for introducing Trinitarianism "Paradoxical questions concerning Athanasius",

According to most scholars, Newton was a monotheist who believed in biblical prophecies but was Antitrinitarian. 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'. (British Journal for the History of Science) (Avery Cardinal Dulles. The Deist Minimum. January 2005.)

 

[cybrwurm]

Hey Leto, it was your first post, and you wasted it by claiming that "Trinitarians are right"? They are NOT right, and analogies to the complexity of the human body certainly do not make them right. Ask rather: 'What does the NT teach?'

 

[iLogos]

The issue of Trinity is not important to me. None of the letters from the apostles ever used the trinity formula which was first used hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.

If pressed on the issue I would lean more towards binitarian as clearly Jesus is God and this formula was used in all the letters.

Never is the Holy Spirit mentioned in the beginning and ending of the letters, but always God the Father and Jesus Christ.

But I will not come out and reject the trinity as it could very well be a concept not yet understood and was a evolving revelation which could also explain the absence of this idea in the OT. I just don't see the Catholics getting this right. Look at their track record (purgatory). But hey, they could be right

I just don't see this as required for my salvation. As long as I accept the gospel as taught in the Bible, Christ crucified, I'm good.

 

[Christopher0121]

Jesus is a man, he isn't God, and he isn't a god. God is a spirit, and Jesus is not a spirit.

read it and weap and ignore it.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

now christians change the word spirit to ghost or phantem. that's your way around this truth.The rule is if a verse doesn't fit your doctrine, then change the words in it.

oh here's another good one.



Rotherham) John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her--Be not detaining me, for, not yet, have I ascended unto the Father; but be going unto my disciples, and say unto them--I am ascending unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

So since you guys think JEsus is God, Jesus was saying, according to your reasoning , that he was ascending to himself Who but an idiot says " i ascend to myself."? And why didn't anyone ask him how he could ascend to himself? Why doesn't the bible explain how Jesus ascended to himself? I know I know, the mystery of god. explains everything. Never mind that hte word mystery isn't in the bible, never mind that christians changed the greek word that means secret or sacred secret to "mystery'. the rule is change the meaning of any word in the bible to fit doctrine and put it in the word of God.

Note how most all bibles change the greek word that means detain to "touch me not". normal in bible translations. Now for you novices, the way you get around all these truths I've brought you here is to ignore everything I've said and talk about something totally different. works like a charm.

Jesus is a man who is also God. Compare:

[SIZE=+1]Jesus Christ, Divinity Of[/SIZE]

As Jehovah
Isa 40:3 with Matt 3:3
Isa 40:3
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (KJV)
Matt 3:3
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (KJV)
Jehovah of glory
Ps 24:7
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. (KJV)
Ps 24:10 with 1 Cor 2:8
Ps 24:10
10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah. (KJV)
1 Cor 2:8
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (KJV)
James 2:1
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (KJV)
Jehovah our righteousness
Jer 23:5-6 with 1 Cor 1:30
Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (KJV)
1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (KJV)
Jehovah above all
Ps 97:9 with John 3:31
Ps 97:9
9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods. (KJV)
John 3:31
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. (KJV)
Jehovah the first and the last
Isa 44:6 with Rev 1:17
Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (KJV)
Rev 1:17
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (KJV)
Isa 48:12-16 with Rev 22:13
Isa 48:12-16
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (KJV)
Rev 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (KJV)
Jehovah of hosts
Isa 6:1-3 with John 12:41
Isa 6:1-3
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. (KJV)
John 12:41
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (KJV)
Isa 8:13-14 with 1 Pet 2:8
Isa 8:13-14
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. (KJV)
1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (KJV)
Jehovah
Ps 110:1 with Matt 22:42-45
Ps 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV)
Matt 22:42-45
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (KJV)
Jehovah the shepherd
Isa 40:10-11
10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. (KJV)
Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (KJV)
Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created
Prov 16:4 with Col 1:16
Prov 16:4
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (KJV)
Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)
Jehovah the messenger of the covenant
Mal 3:1 with Luke 2:27
Mal 3:1
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)
Luke 2:27
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, (KJV)
Invoked as Jehovah
Joel 2:32 with 1 Cor 1:2
Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (KJV)
1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (KJV)
As the eternal God and Creator
Ps 102:24-27 with Heb 1:8
Ps 102:24-27
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. (KJV)
Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (KJV)
Heb 1:10-12
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. (KJV)
The mighty God
Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)
The Great God and Saviour
Hosea 1:7 with Titus 2:13
Hosea 1:7
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. (KJV)
Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJV)
God over all
Rom 9:5
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (KJV)
God the Judge
Eccl 12:14 with 1 Cor 4:5
Eccl 12:14
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (KJV)
1 Cor 4:5
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (KJV)
2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (KJV)
2 Tim 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (KJV)
Emmanuel
Isa 7:14 with Matt 1:23
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV)
Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)
King of kings and LORD of lords
Rev 17:14
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (KJV)
The Holy One
1 Sam 2:2 with Acts 3:14
1 Sam 2:2
2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (KJV)
Acts 3:14
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; (KJV)
The Lord from heaven
1 Cor 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (KJV)
Lord of the sabbath
Gen 2:3 with Matt 12:8
Gen 2:3
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (KJV)
Matt 12:8
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (KJV)
Lord of all
Acts 10:36
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all (KJV)
Rom 10:11-13
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)
Son of God
Matt 26:63-67
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, (KJV)
​

TO BE CONTINUED...

 

[Christopher0121]

CONTINUED...

The one and only Son of the Father
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (KJV)
I Jn 4:9
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. (KJV)
His blood is called the blood of God
Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (KJV)
One with the Father
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)
John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)
John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)
John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
John 17:10
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (KJV)
As Creator of all things
Isa 40:28
28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. (KJV)
John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (KJV)
Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)
Supporter and preserver of all things
Neh 9:6 with Col 1:17
Neh 9:6
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. (KJV)
Col 1:17
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (KJV)
Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (KJV)
Acknowledged by Old Testament saints
Gen 17:1 with Gen 48:15-16
Gen 17:1
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (KJV)
Gen 48:15-16
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. (KJV)
Gen 32:24-30 with Hosea 12:3-5
Gen 32:24-30
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (KJV)
Hosea 12:3-5
3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. (KJV)
Judg 6:22-24
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.
24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites. (KJV)
Judg 13:21-22
21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. (KJV)
Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (KJV)
​

Repeatedly those things attributed to Jehovah are attributed to Christ. This is only possible if the man, Jesus Christ, is one Spirit with the Father.

 

[Christopher0121]

That's like asking how did God come into being. That He was always with the Father is as far as the finite mind can conceive. Do you think He was a created being?

So, there have always been two eternal all powerful beings? That's two God's my friend.

In Hinduism, there are many gods. Actually, they don't exist, but for the purpose of discussion to make my point, imagine that they do. They all have different abilities, purposes, etc. no two are the same. As in Roman or Greek mythology, each god had a different purpose, since they could not have the same.
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are exactly alike and have the same power, knowledge and purpose, being ONE. We are told to be of one mind, like minded, Christ-like.

So we have three eternally divine clones? I contend that they are different in Trinitarianism. In Trinitarianism the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. They have three distinct functions and roles with relation to Trinitarian soteriology. Just like in Hindu paganism.

If that's all there was, I would be agreeing with you. I noticed that you didn't comment on the "let us make man in our image" or "behold, man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil."

In Genesis 1 God speaks saying, "Let us make man in our own image." In Isaiah, Isaiah sees one on the throne surrounded by angels. God, the one on the throne asks:

Isaiah 6:8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+6:7-9&version=KJV
​

Please note, Isaiah sees only ONE upon the throne. However, there are fearsome angels flying about the throne. God speaks majestically as the King of Heaven, the Lord of Hosts. God speaks for all of Heaven, like Obama would say that "We are entering a peace treaty.", or would speak to Iran about "our concerns". It doesn't mean that there is more than one Obama. lol

Let's look at the context of the "us" statements in Genesis. God speaks about "Let us create man..." and also states "man is become as one of us". Do we see more than one divine being in that context? No. God is speaking. However, after God says this we see God drive man from the garden of Eden and then CHERUBIMS (angels) are stationed to guard the tree of life. So in the context we don't see more than one divine being... we do see angels. Just as in Isaiah. God is speaking as the Lord of Hosts, the King of Heaven. Not to two other Gods.

Or the many verses which include all three.

Christ's baptism is an excellent example. We have one God. He exists in three distinct modes of existence at once. First, God exists transcendently as the Father. Second, God exists temporally in the man Jesus Christ. Thirdly, God exists spiritually on the spiritual plane as the Holy Spirit. Subsisting in three distinct realities at once, the singular person of God has three distinct subsistent realties. It's like the movie Back to the Future. Michael Jay Fox's character is only one person. However, if Marty from the future (one mode of existence) is standing beside Marty from the past, there appears to be two Marty's. Ah... but they are not. They are the same person.

Oh boy, so much about Elohim, you are in denial that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present during the creation simultaneously. If you say the Son was not or was just a mode of God's existence when he was born then you are blind to who He is, the creator. (John 1:3. Col.1:16, 17) What is your take on those verses?

Again, modes of existence. The Father existed transcendently and is eternally revealed in time and space (temporally) through the Logos. Thus we have the same God existing both transcendent of all things... and in all things... at one time from all eternity. It was the Logos of God that was made flesh, the very Light and Life whereby God is known. This reality of God emanated from God into our temporal reality. The Logos isn't a second divine person. It's God Himself made perceivable to creatures such as ourselves who are trapped in time and space.

They are blinded. They did not understand many things about God. Jesus revealed and fulfilled many things but they rejected Him. If you trust a Jews theology, you'll miss out, all their blanks haven't been filled and they are still waiting for their Messiah -- who has already come.

Jesus wasn't blinded. It was Jesus who said,

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4:21-23&version=KJV
​

You are implying that Jesus was blind, like the Jews, and therefore didn't know what He was talking about! LOL I agree with HIM. They indeed DO know what they worship. The Jews rejected Jesus, not because He claimed to be a second divine person... but because He was a man who was also claiming to be... God Himself:

John 10:26-33
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
​

Notice, THEY UNDERSTOOD that Jesus was claiming not to be a second God, but to be God Himself. To them, this was blasphemy because they thought of Jesus being just a man. In their eyes Jesus was a man who was making himself out to be God. The truth was just the opposite. In Jesus, God became a man.

You can't refute that Jesus Himself explains that the Jews were right concerning their knowledge of GOD, they know what they worship. They just didn't understand that the God they worship became incarnate in the man Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is refered to by Jesus as "He", "Ekeinos" . He is a person and has all the qualities of a person: speaks, hears, knows, comforts, has volition, emotions, etc. He glorifies the Son. So you are saying that when He is doing this, He is glorying himself in a different mode? LOL

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Is your spirit a different person from yourself? No. In fact, we know that the Holy Spirit is the active mode of the Father in the spirit because Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost isn't the Father... does Jesus have two dads? No. The Holy Spirit is the Father in spirit. When refering to both the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus speaks saying "he". Why? Because there is a clear distinction between Christ's humanity and Christ's deity. Being both fully human, Jesus speaks as a man. Hense, the Father and the Holy Spirit will be "he".

While I'm not one with God... if I were... I'd still be perfectly human. Yet I would share in the very being of God. God's divinity and my humanity would be subsistent realties that are blended. So, ontologically, I'd be God... yet I'd speak of Him conversationally. Why? Because I'm also a man.

 

[Christopher0121]

Aquila,
I think you have been deceived into believing modalism and to believe this, you have to deny much truth about the Bible that you are not willing to address. You'll just stick with your selective arguments which doesn't hold water with any scholar, because it is not scholarly, it is flawed in concept and weak in argument. I really don't think we will change each others minds about this. So, we'll meet again, ater ... on the next topic.

I don't expect to change your mind. I do expect to clarify what I believe from the Trinitarian strawmen. I'd also like to see the answers you provide to my questions. Because I've not yet met a Trinitarian who can answer them with consistency.

Again, how is having three divine persons different from having three Gods? The answer you gave failed the test because you assumed that I didn't know about the "Economic Trinity". As a Trinitarian, I'm sure you know that there are essentially two doctrines concerning the Trinity that are true at the same time. The first doctrine is the "Ontological Trinity". You answered the question using the ontological nature of the Trinity stating that they are all the same and not different like Greek gods. I countered you by noting the economic reality within the Trinity that makes them absolutely distinct in soteriological function, which actually does make them like pagan gods, especially those found in Hinduism.

Let's not try to change each other's minds. Let's share our convictions so that we understand one another better. Perhaps, you'll see that what I believe is quite logical, and you might even go back and do a little studying (as with baptismal formulas) and realize that the Christianity I hold to is far more ancient than the triune conclusion embraced by church councils in later times. My Christianity is more akin to the original. The Apostles were Jews who converted to follow Christ. The doctrine of a Trinity would have been WAAAAAYYYYY far out to them. They were very simplistic, and truth is always simple, Jesus was a man who was also God. Give Him praise and glory.

 

[Christopher0121]

change the word to trinity, and it applies to you, you guys are thus in the same boat. modalism is just another form of trinity. Every variant of trinity is considered heresy by every other variant of trinity.

You know... that's true. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

You should listen to Aquila's arguments. Which one do you not agree with?

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1951). II, 384, 389: "The formula used was "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" or some synonymous phrase; there is no evidence for the use of the triune name… The earliest form, represented in the Acts, was simple immersion… in water, the use of the name of the Lord, and the laying on of hands. To these were added, at various times and places which cannot be safely identified, (a) the triune name (Justin)…"

Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351: "The evidence… suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241: "[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435: "The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus… which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473: "It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365: "The trinitarian formula and triune immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning… Baptism into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."

At first the Christian Faith was not Trinitarian. . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings. The Encyclopedia of Religion And Ethics

Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity. The Encyclopedia of Religion

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament. . . "is not. . . directly and immediately the word of God." The New Catholic Encyclopedia

There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. . . Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers. Jesuit Edmund Fortman The "Triune God"

Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament. The Encyclopedia of Religion The New Encyclopedia Britannica

The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology

To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it. Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins "Origin and Evolution of Religion"

Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord. Historian Arthur Weigall "The Paganism in Our Christianity"

‘Newton laid the blame for the rise of the pagan doctrines about demons in the Church at the door of his ecclesiastical nemesis Athanasius, whom he also saw as responsible for introducing Trinitarianism "Paradoxical questions concerning Athanasius",

According to most scholars, Newton was a monotheist who believed in biblical prophecies but was Antitrinitarian. 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'. (British Journal for the History of Science) (Avery Cardinal Dulles. The Deist Minimum. January 2005.)

Amen!

You see.... Trinitarians are more concerned with church councils and orthodoxy than facts. Think about it... now they have to debate their cause. About 700 years ago... they'd just send in soldiers to arrest us and have us burned at the stake.

 

[Christopher0121]

The issue of Trinity is not important to me. None of the letters from the apostles ever used the trinity formula which was first used hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.

If pressed on the issue I would lean more towards binitarian as clearly Jesus is God and this formula was used in all the letters.

Never is the Holy Spirit mentioned in the beginning and ending of the letters, but always God the Father and Jesus Christ.

But I will not come out and reject the trinity as it could very well be a concept not yet understood and was a evolving revelation which could also explain the absence of this idea in the OT. I just don't see the Catholics getting this right. Look at their track record (purgatory). But hey, they could be right

I just don't see this as required for my salvation. As long as I accept the gospel as taught in the Bible, Christ crucified, I'm good.

Who was incarnate in the man Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



​

The man Jesus Christ was the human tabernacle of all the fulness of deity:

Colossians 2:8-9 (ESV)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
​

<H3>Selah!


</H3>

 

[Christopher0121]

It can be proven that the Jews understood their language better than we. Jesus Himself states that they know what they worship. Jesus is clearly one with God, but God is a single monotheistic God as the Jews see Him, not a Trinity. And history confirms that early Christians baptized using only the name of Jesus. They understood that it's all in Jesus (Father, Son, Holy Ghost).

 

[plmarquette]

the lord Jehovah, your God , elohim, plural

let us create man in our image

let my disciples be as one, as we are one (father, son, spirit)
three who bear witness in heaven (water, spirit, blood)
only do what i have seen and heard father do
one like, me will be sent by the father
baptism of John ... Jesus, Father, spirit descending

out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, will your word be established

 

[Ronald]

temporally[/b]) through the Logos.

So, he the Father flicks a switch, changes the mode and becomes the Son and when the Son was baptized by John, He flicked it into the Holy Spirit mode which descended upon Jesus (who wasn't God for that moment, nor did the Father exist temporarily), then He apparently played a trick on Jesus and the Holy Spirit, removed himself from the Holy Spirit, became the Father again briefly and spoke and said "this is my beloved Son whom I am well pleased"... then switched back to the the Holy Spirit and/or Jesus. That is modalism in a nutshell. And you must be a nut to believe it, it is nonsense.
You are saying that Jesus was not God when He prayed to the Father and was not the creator? You aren't addressing key points. (John 1:3; Col.1:16,17) The New Testament, especially the book of John speak of His deity but that He was fully God at all times, not temporarily, not an angel that was achieved the position of a god (as the Jehovah Witnesses believe).

It was the Logos of God that was made flesh, the very Light and Life whereby God is known. This reality of God emanated from God into our temporal reality. The Logos isn't a second divine person. It's God Himself made perceivable to creatures such as ourselves who are trapped in time and space.

God emptied himself and became flesh, but you are implying that He doesn't have a relationship with His Father whom he prayed to. You are saying he prayed to himself or that Jesus was created at some point in time and when he was born, became filled with God's spirit. Jesus said before Abraham was, "I AM". He was making a reference to the I Am in EX. 3:14, when He spoke to Moses.
You are actually implying that Jesus was just a man who prayed to the Father and when He died, rose again and ascended, then He became God, attained all authority in heaven and earth and being God at that time, the Father didn't exist with Him in heaven sitting next to Him or his mode has been turned off since then.??? Crazy stuff. I'm annalytical and that doesn't work.
They all exist simultaneously and therefore modalism malfunctions.

Jesus wasn't blinded. It was Jesus who said,

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
​

The Jews that don't receive Christ or anyone else in the world who doesn't is blind. In this context, Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman who was confused, and not sure of her faith and living in sin. Jesus straightened her out and said salvation comes from the blood line of the Jews and BTW, I am the Messiah, whom salvation comes from.
​