Arnold Murray's Teaching

LastSeven · Apr 24, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Well, it proved you in error. The 10 kings are of the fallen angels which were cast out of heaven with Satan.

Still you have not shown any Biblical evidence to support this theory. That doesn't mean the theory is wrong, it just means you haven't effectively supported it.

Revelation 17:12 doesn't support your theory at all. Unless you are assuming that because they are called "kings" though they have no kingdom that this is evidence of their angelic being.

When I read that passage I believe the angel is referring to them as kings because at some point they will be kings, not because they are angelic.

Watchman_2 · Apr 24, 2011

Douggg said:
Well, why not the whole world? Genesis 11:1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

I already proved that it was not the whole planet. See Gen. 10:5.

The ten kings are end times, not at the time of ancient tower of Babel.

The ten kings were past as well. I already proved it to you. See Rev. 12:3. And, it was not at the time of the tower of babel. I already informed you when it took place -- the first age.

Where are you getting "first age" by reading Genesis 1:1-2?

See 2 Pet. 3:5-7.

Watchman_2 · Apr 24, 2011

LastSeven said:
Still you have not shown any Biblical evidence to support this theory. That doesn't mean the theory is wrong, it just means you haven't effectively supported it.

Revelation 17:12 doesn't support your theory at all. Unless you are assuming that because they are called "kings" though they have no kingdom that this is evidence of their angelic being.

When I read that passage I believe the angel is referring to them as kings because at some point they will be kings, not because they are angelic.

Please forgive me for that which is very obvious to me is not considered proof to you or others. I see nothing in Rev. 17 which could be construed that those kings could be anyone else but the fallen angels.

See Rev. 12:3. These same 10 kings reigned before. At no time from Adam to present has there been a one-world order run by 10 flesh kings. That leaves Rev. 12:3 occurring in the first age -- prior to flesh man [before Gen. 1:2].

The 10 kings of Rev. 17:12 [and 13:1] have like mind with Satan. They only get their power from Satan -- not from man.

Douggg · Apr 24, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
I already proved that it was not the whole planet. See Gen. 10:5.

Gen 10:5 doesn't abrogate Genesis 11:1. Perhaps your understanding is possibly wrong .

Genesis 11 explains how all those nations and different tongues came to be. When God scattered them at the tower of babel, they scattered according to their families listed in Genesis 10.

1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.....
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

10: 5By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

The ten kings were past as well. I already proved it to you. See Rev. 12:3. And, it was not at the time of the tower of babel. I already informed you when it took place -- the first age.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Well, I could see how part of Revelation 12:3 refers to a third of the angels rebelling with Satan, but I don't any ten angelic kings in that verse.

I don't think that the ten kings were at the tower of Babel either. Revelation 17:12 indicates the ten kings are future. The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, when the Antichrist beast comes to power, with 42 months to go before Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years.

The ten horns do not have their crowns in Revelation 12, nor in Revelation 17.

See 2 Pet. 3:5-7.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

To me, it is saying that at the start of creation, the earth was covered by water, and then the dry land, the firmament, rose out of the water, forming mountains, valleys, plains.

I don't see how that has anything to do with a "first age". Now if you are talking about a time period for the dinosaurs as possible gene manipulation by Satan and his rebel angels - then I could entertain that thought.

Watchman_2 · Apr 24, 2011

Douggg said:
Gen 10:5 doesn't abrogate Genesis 11:1. Perhaps your understanding is possibly wrong

Gen. 11:1 does not abrogate Gen 10:5. So, what gives?? If your thinking is correct, then the Word of God is not inspired as Gen. 10:5 states that they are not all one people, nor all in one location, nor all of one language.

Or, one can logically conclude that your interpretation is errant and that the Word of God is inspired. I will go with this conclusion.

So, in looking at Gen. 11:1, one can see -

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Checking out the rendering 'earth' in the Bible manuscripts, one sees the meaning -

H776
ארץ
'erets
eh'-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): - X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.

Hence, the rendering should have been 'land' instead of 'earth' in order to avoid confusion on your part. But, by use of Strong's Concordance, one can easily clarify the scripture meaning so that the Bible remains the inspired Word of God.

Well, I could see how part of Revelation 12:3 refers to a third of the angels rebelling with Satan, but I don't any ten angelic kings in that verse.

See Rev. 17:12. The ten horns are ten kings -- the same ten kings from the first age one-world order.

I don't think that the ten kings were at the tower of Babel either. Revelation 17:12 indicates the ten kings are future. The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, when the Antichrist beast comes to power, with 42 months to go before Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years.

The ten horns do not have their crowns in Revelation 12, nor in Revelation 17.

The one-world order of Rev. 13:1 is not the same as the one in Rev. 12:3. The one that is future is addressed in 17:12. The 12:3 one was in the past -- in the first age.

It isn't 42 months as the time was shortened. See Mat. 24:22, Rev. 9:5.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

To me, it is saying that at the start of creation, the earth was covered by water, and then the dry land, the firmament, rose out of the water, forming mountains, valleys, plains.

I don't see how that has anything to do with a "first age". Now if you are talking about a time period for the dinosaurs as possible gene manipulation by Satan and his rebel angels - then I could entertain that thought.

See Isa 45:18. God did not create the world void and without form. The rendering 'was' in the Bible manuscripts means -

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

The manuscripts were improperly rendered as 'was' instead of 'became'. If it were properly rendered 'became', the confusion for many would be avoided. And, Gen. 1:2 would be consistent with Gen. 45:18.

The manuscripts regarding the rendering 'perished' in 2 Pet. 3:6 -

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

So, what one can glean from scripture regarding the first age, it was finished off by a flood, which fully destroyed it. One has two floods to choose from.

In evaluating Noah's flood, one can see that all the plants, all the animals, and all the races of people survived it. God did not have to recreate a single thing after Noah's flood.

However, when one evaluates the flood of Gen. 1:2, one can see that God had to recreate everything thereafter. See Gen. 1:2-31.

Douggg · Apr 24, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Hence, the rendering should have been 'land' instead of 'earth' in order to avoid confusion on your part.

I think we have reached a point of impasse on that issue.

See Rev. 17:12. The ten horns are ten kings -- the same ten kings from the first age one-world order.

I would like for you to show me within the text, any mention of the "first age one-world order. Mystery, babylon the great is in the text of Revelation 17. So why isn't babylon the great the first one-world order?

The one-world order of Rev. 13:1 is not the same as the one in Rev. 12:3. The one that is future is addressed in 17:12. The 12:3 one was in the past -- in the first age.

It isn't 42 months as the time was shortened. See Mat. 24:22, Rev. 9:5.

It says 42 months in the text. If the beast in Revelation 13:1 is not the beast in Revelation 12:3, why do they have the same seven heads and ten horns? I have studied this everyday for 38 years of my adult life, btw.
***********************************************************

Revelation 17 - the status of the beast at the time of John 1st century - examine the crowns on the heads and horns.

7 heads - no crowns, no wounded head
10 horns - no crowns

Revelation 12 - the status of the beast at the beginning of the final 7 years.

7 heads - crowns ( meaning the 7 kings are complete, the Antichrist man has come to power to begin the seven years)
10 horns - no crowns (the Antichrist beast has not come to power)

Revelation 13 - the status of the beast with 42 months to go, the second half of the 7 years)

7 heads - no crowns, one head mortally wounded. The Antichrist man has been mortally wounded, ending the 7 kings prophecy.
10 horns - crowns. The Antichrist beast has come to power, and his supporting cast of ten kings. Meaning the beast spirit of nimrod (imo) the Assyrian has ascended out of the bottomless pit and incarnates the slain Antichrist man during his miraculous recovery.

If you have trouble with Revelation 12, how it can represent the 7 years, I can explain if you want me to.

See Isa 45:18. God did not create the world void and without form. The rendering 'was' in the Bible manuscripts means -
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

The manuscripts were improperly rendered as 'was' instead of 'became'. If it were properly rendered 'became', the confusion for many would be avoided. And, Gen. 1:2 would be consistent with Gen. 45:18.

The manuscripts regarding the rendering 'perished' in 2 Pet. 3:6 -
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

So, what one can glean from scripture regarding the first age, it was finished off by a flood, which fully destroyed it. One has two floods to choose from.

In evaluating Noah's flood, one can see that all the plants, all the animals, and all the races of people survived it. God did not have to recreate a single thing after Noah's flood.

However, when one evaluates the flood of Gen. 1:2, one can see that God had to recreate everything thereafter. See Gen. 1:2-31.

Okay, I will look it over. I am in a debate with the muslims in a couple of threads at their site, right now.

Doug L.

POSTIOS · Apr 25, 2011

since watchman, you said i was wrong on so many points, which i could be,
i will begin with this one point first...and then ask a quesrtion or two.
no offense is meant...sharpen me./

the timing of the 1st vial...

Rev13:14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Rev16:1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

can you see how the image being worshiped,
shows that this 1st vial of wrath is poured on these ones,
at least after the rise of the second beast in Rev13?
during Rev13:11-end.
I might be wrong about the vial's timing, but at least this much is pretty easily discerned.

you see, the 1st vial proves that the timing can be no earlier then the time that the second beast in Rev13 makes them take the mark.
and he has to be here to do that in the latter half.

explain how that is wrong, if it is.

also, do you have an opinion about what people having his number of his name (666) means (since it is not the mark of the beast)?
How does that relate to the 6th seal(in time)/trump/vial?

Watchman_2 · Apr 25, 2011

Douggg said:
I think we have reached a point of impasse on that issue.

If there is an impasse, it would be because you refuse to acknowledge your error. Clearly, Gen. 10:5 disproves your interpretation of 11:1 being that of the entire planet.

I would like for you to show me within the text, any mention of the "first age one-world order.

I already have -- see Rev. 12:3. You can read more about it in Eze. 28.

Mystery, babylon the great is in the text of Revelation 17. So why isn't babylon the great the first one-world order?

I already explained this to you. The one-world order of Rev. 17 is the same as discussed in Rev. 13:1. This one-world order is future.

It says 42 months in the text.

Yes, 42 months would be consistent with Dan. 9:27. However, Christ shortened the time [Mat. 24:22]. To shorten the time would infer that the time was already previously set and, therefore, the new time would be less than the previously established time. Since the time was already previously set at 42 months, then by Christ's own shortening of it, one can only conclude that it would be less than 42 months.

If the beast in Revelation 13:1 is not the beast in Revelation 12:3, why do they have the same seven heads and ten horns? I have studied this everyday for 38 years of my adult life, btw.

Wow -- you spent 38 years studying this and messed up so badly!! It is very easy to see why the two are not the same beast -

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

It is sad to see that you spent so much time on the wrong track when, with a simple correlation of the two scriptures, one can clearly see that they are two different beasts.

If you have trouble with Revelation 12, how it can represent the 7 years, I can explain if you want me to.

I don't have any trouble with Rev. 12 -- however, it is clear that you do. See above.

Watchman_2 · Apr 25, 2011

POSTIOS said:
since watchman, you said i was wrong on so many points, which i could be,
i will begin with this one point first...and then ask a quesrtion or two.
no offense is meant...sharpen me./

the timing of the 1st vial...

Rev13:14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Rev16:1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

can you see how the image being worshiped,
shows that this 1st vial of wrath is poured on these ones,
at least after the rise of the second beast in Rev13?
during Rev13:11-end.
I might be wrong about the vial's timing, but at least this much is pretty easily discerned.

you see, the 1st vial proves that the timing can be no earlier then the time that the second beast in Rev13 makes them take the mark.
and he has to be here to do that in the latter half.

explain how that is wrong, if it is.

Well, you are wrong. Satan, and his angels, are not on the scene until vials 5 and 6; whereas, the first vial clearly indicates that folks already took the mark of the beast. Hence, Satan has nothing whatsoever to do with those who take the mark before he, and his angels, are cast out of heaven.

In fact, even upon Satan's and his angels' arrival on the scene, there is no 'forcing' anyone to take the mark. Satan is out to deceive all [in effort to save himself]. Those so deceived during his defacto appearance will gladly take the mark of their own free will.

Regarding 16:1, Rapturists already worship the image of the beast. They worship the one that will rapture them away -- which is Satan. Yet, Satan is not here yet. 'Image' is not the defacto entity.

also, do you have an opinion about what people having his number of his name (666) means (since it is not the mark of the beast)?
How does that relate to the 6th seal(in time)/trump/vial?

I don't know what you are attempting to communicate. As I have written many times, the key to understanding 666 is the word 'count'.

POSTIOS · Apr 25, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Well, you are wrong. Satan, and his angels, are not on the scene until vials 5 and 6; whereas, the first vial clearly indicates that folks already took the mark of the beast. Hence, Satan has nothing whatsoever to do with those who take the mark before he, and his angels, are cast out of heaven.

listen, if they worship the image, Satan and his angels are here.
i don't know how any other explanaition is possible.
I think you are wrong here Brother. Satan is here in this first vial.

In fact, even upon Satan's and his angels' arrival on the scene, there is no 'forcing' anyone to take the mark. Satan is out to deceive all [in effort to save himself]. Those so deceived during his defacto appearance will gladly take the mark.

ok, but i am showing you that the deceived also worship his image...and that is only possible when he is here.

you may have to re-evaluate.

Regarding 16:1, Rapturists already worship the image of the beast. They worship the one that will rapture them away -- which is Satan. Yet, Satan is not here yet. 'Image' is not the defacto entity.

incorrect.
this is where your logic fails you.
before Satan's arrival, including today, all Christians are believers in God, and worship Him.
Only when Satan arrives defacto, can they even possibly worship Satan as the false Christ.

I don't know what you are attempting to communicate. As I have said many times, the key to understanding 666 is the word 'count'.

yes, count...

Since it is differenciated from the mark of the beast, what does people having his number mean to you and how does that fit into your theory of 6th seal/trump/vial = 666?

I have learned many things from your testimony in the past.
however, on the timing of the first vial, we are in disagreement,
and I think I made my case.

the first vial cannot be poured out until AT LEAST the arrival of Satan.

Douggg · Apr 25, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
I already have -- see Rev. 12:3. You can read more about it in Eze. 28.

I was referring to where in Revelation 17, do you read "first age" anything spelled out in the text?

Yes, 42 months would be consistent with Dan. 9:27. However, Christ shortened the time [Mat. 24:22]. To shorten the time would infer that the time was already previously set and, therefore, the new time would be less than the previously established time. Since the time was already previously set at 42 months, then by Christ's own shortening of it, one can only conclude that it would be less than 42 months.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Shortened just means that those days will be limited otherwise all flesh being destroyed. The 42 months has the shortened already built in.

Wow -- you spent 38 years studying this and messed up so badly!! It is very easy to see why the two are not the same beast -
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

It is sad to see that you spent so much time on the wrong track when, with a simple correlation of the two scriptures, one can clearly see that they are two different beasts.

They crowns are different in Revelation 17, 13, and 12 because each of those Chapters represents a different point in the prophetic timeline.

analogy: when you wake up in the morning, you do not have your cap on. When you go outside you put on your cap. Are you the same person, with or without the cap? Yes. The beast is the same beast in all three chapters, with or without its crowns.

I don't have any trouble with Rev. 12 -- however, it is clear that you do. See above.

So you understand how the 7 years are in Revelation 12?

Watchman_2 · Apr 25, 2011

POSTIOS said:
listen, if they worship the image, Satan and his angels are here.

Image is not the defacto entity.

G1504
εἰκών
eikōn
i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.

What represents the beast at this time?? It is his role as the false messiah.

i don't know how any other explanaition is possible.
I think you are wrong here Brother. Satan is here in this first vial.

Well, if you dump the false notion that 'image' means the entity itself, you would not keep getting it wrong.

See Rev. 20:4.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is a distinction between the beast and his image.

ok, but i am showing you that the deceived also worship his image...and that is only possible when he is here.

you may have to re-evaluate.

Nope -- you are the one in error.

incorrect.
this is where your logic fails you.
before Satan's arrival, including today, all Christians are believers in God, and worship Him.
Only when Satan arrives defacto, can they even possibly worship Satan as the false Christ.

Well, you are wrong again. See Rev. 20:4. Rapturists don't make it for the first resurrection when they take the mark and worship the beast's image. Just because many rapturists die before Satan is here does not excuse them for their worship of Satan's image [even in ignorance] as the false messiah. There is a penalty for that belief -- one spelled out in 2 Thes. 2, Eze. 13, and Isa. 28. They don't make the first resurrection.

yes, count...

Since it is differenciated from the mark of the beast, what does people having his number mean to you and how does that fit into your theory of 6th seal/trump/vial = 666?

I don't understand what you are attempting to communicate. People take the mark of the beast -- not the number of the beast. To know the timing of the beast, one counts the events leading up to the beasts appearance.

I have learned many things from your testimony in the past.
however, on the timing of the first vial, we are in disagreement,
and I think I made my case.

the first vial cannot be poured out until AT LEAST the arrival of Satan.

You are hung up on the word 'image', which is not the entity itself. Yet, you continue to think that 'image' equals 'entity'. You are simply wrong about that.

Watchman_2 · Apr 25, 2011

Douggg said:
I was referring to where in Revelation 17, do you read "first age" anything spelled out in the text?

I never said that Rev. 17 spoke of the first age. What one learns from Rev. 17 is the definition of the 10 horns being 10 non-earthly kings. As Rev. 12:3 speaks of the same 10 kings as Rev. 13:1, one knows that it is the same 10 kings who reigned in the first age that will reign again in the future.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Shortened just means that those days will be limited otherwise all flesh being destroyed. The 42 months has the shortened already built in.

No it doesn't. See Rev. 9:5. The time was shortened to 5 months -- not 42 months [or 84 months].

They crowns are different in Revelation 17, 13, and 12 because each of those Chapters represents a different point in the prophetic timeline.

Where in Rev. 17 is there a beast with horns, heads, and crowns called out or seen by John??

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

John did not see any horned, headed, and crowned beast in Rev. 17. So, the reference 'which thou sawest' refers back to the two beasts described in Rev. 12:3 and 13:1.

So, if you think that 12:3 and 13:1 are both future separate one-world orders, have at it. I don't think that you will be successful in proving it.

So you understand how the 7 years are in Revelation 12?

It isn't 7 years. The time was shortened.

POSTIOS · Apr 25, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Image is not the defacto entity.

G1504
εἰκών
eikōn
i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.

What represents the beast at this time?? It is his role as the false messiah.

Well, if you dump the false notion that 'image' means the entity itself, you would not keep getting it wrong.

See Rev. 20:4.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is a distinction between the beast and his image.

Nope -- you are the one in error.

Well, you are wrong again. See Rev. 20:4. Rapturists don't make it for the first resurrection when they take the mark and worship the beast's image. Just because many rapturists die before Satan is here does not excuse them for their worship of Satan's image [even in ignorance] as the false messiah. There is a penalty for that belief -- one spelled out in 2 Thes. 2, Eze. 13, and Isa. 28. They don't make the first resurrection.

I don't understand what you are attempting to communicate. People take the mark of the beast -- not the number of the beast. To know the timing of the beast, one counts the events leading up to the beasts appearance.

You are hung up on the word 'image', which is not the entity itself. Yet, you continue to think that 'image' equals 'entity'. You are simply wrong about that.

my point is that they worship both image / entity, and have the mark

the only actual biblical reference we have is Rev13,
and there, we see the circumstances of the false Christ being worshiped and the image worshiped and the people marked.

logically, when the first vial gives us the same details, we can make the connection.
the false Christ places the mark, and is worshiped as God.

this cannot occur until the actual seduction...
they (rapturists) may be guilty of forpay, and even flirting,
but not the act...
not until Satan is here.

I personally have heard PM speak on what he believes will be the fate of rapturists that die before the trib,
and your notions do not line up.

Bullinger for one...

but maybe you are being specific to this final generation...i dont know.

but the whole premise for the mark of the beast hinges on the first commandment.
And in no way are pre tribbers breaking the first commandment today (worshiping another).
Sorry.

They may be deceived, and even the most likely to be seduced when Satan comes, but they are Christians today, worshiping God.

your structure falls apart here.

POSTIOS · Apr 25, 2011

I don't understand what you are attempting to communicate. People take the mark of the beast -- not the number of the beast. To know the timing of the beast, one counts the events leading up to the beasts appearance.

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Watchman_2 · Apr 25, 2011

POSTIOS said:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

O.K. -- you have a problem with the clause 'the number of his name'.

If one looks at the word 'had' in the manuscripts, one sees -

G2192
ἔχω
echō
ekh'-o
A primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition): - be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can (+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do, + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.

Then, if one looks at the rendering 'name' in the manuscripts, one sees -

G3686
ὄνομα
onoma
on'-om-ah
From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a "name" (literally or figuratively), (authority, character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

It is a derivative of G1097, which means -

G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

The word 'name' is figurative for Satan's authority.

Watchman_2 · Apr 25, 2011

POSTIOS said:
my point is that they worship both image / entity, and have the mark

Rapturists worship the image already -- not the entity. They have taken the mark by way of their belief in Rapture. Absent repentance, they don't make the first resurrection. The first 4 vials of God's wrath are purposed for rapturists in effort to get them to repent before Satan arrives, after which, their fates will be sealed [if they were taught the Truth].

the false Christ places the mark, and is worshiped as God.

Wrong! See Rev. 16:1 -- they have the mark prior to the first vial. Satan's appearance is not until the 6th vial.

I personally have heard PM speak on what he believes will be the fate of rapturists that die before the trib,
and your notions do not line up.

Failing to make the first resurrection does not mean that they fry in the Lake of Fire necessarily. Only those that were taught the Truth, and thereafter rejected it, will fry. See 2 Thes. 2.

PM states that many don't ever have a chance, based upon teaching today. Surely, those that have been born and raised in rapture churches have been brainwashed from the beginning. Only God can judge whether they really had a chance to know the Truth. Those that were innocently duped into rapture will get their opportunity at the 2nd resurrection. No rapturist makes the first resurrection. See Rev. 20:4.

They may be deceived, and even the most likely to be seduced when Satan comes, but they are Christians today, worshiping God.

They may be worshipping God -- so do the Muslims.

But, they have placed their salvation in the false messiah -- not the true Christ. They have already taken the mark of the beast.

POSTIOS · Apr 26, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
O.K. -- you have a problem with the clause 'the number of his name'.

If one looks at the word 'had' in the manuscripts, one sees -

G2192
ἔχω
echō
ekh'-o
A primary verb (including an alternate form σχέωscheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition): - be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can (+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do, + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.

Then, if one looks at the rendering 'name' in the manuscripts, one sees -

G3686
ὄνομα
onoma
on'-om-ah
From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a "name" (literally or figuratively), (authority, character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

It is a derivative of G1097, which means -

G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

The word 'name' is figurative for Satan's authority.

don't worry about it bro.
we are not getting anywhere

Watchman_2 said:
Rapturists worship the image already -- not the entity.

they worship God now. This is your flaw.

They have taken the mark by way of their belief in Rapture.

incorrect. The mark is not able to be taken until Satan deals it out. See Rev13.
that is when he actually makes them take the mark, regardless of your theory.

their rapture belief is IMO what will lead many of them to take the mark,
but it is not the mark itself.

more than just rapturists will take the mark.

Absent repentance, they don't make the first resurrection. The first 4 vials of God's wrath are purposed for rapturists in effort to get them to repent before Satan arrives, after which, their fates will be sealed [if they were taught the Truth].

nice theory, but the first vial is not possibe to be poured until Satan has been here and dealt out the mark, and been worshiped.
round and round we go.

Wrong! See Rev. 16:1 -- they have the mark prior to the first vial.

I never said otherwise. Of course they have the mark prior to the first vial.
I said that Satan must be here for the first vial to be poured.

Satan's appearance is not until the 6th vial.

you keep saying that...i want to properly divide the scripture with more relevant scripture.
I can show when the false Christ forces the mark is upon folks Rev13,
and the fact that they have to worship him, himself too....2Thes2 makes that pretty clear.

your theory is not sound. Satan is here defacto when the first vial is poured.

Failing to make the first resurrection does not mean that they fry in the Lake of Fire necessarily. Only those that were taught the Truth, and thereafter rejected it, will fry. See 2 Thes. 2.

ya. ok....
how do you know what ws shown them while they wait in heaven.
How do you know if they are repentant or not now.

PM states that many don't ever have a chance, based upon teaching today. Surely, those that have been born and raised in rapture churches have been brainwashed from the beginning. Only God can judge whether they really had a chance to know the Truth. Those that were innocently duped into rapture will get their opportunity at the 2nd resurrection. No rapturist makes the first resurrection. See Rev. 20:4.

I see Rev20:4 and do not agree with your evaluation.

any rapturists that is here in the end, and takes the mark and worships the beast and is not repentant of that, will not make the first.
but until then, they are virgins in waiting....just like you and i.

They may be worshipping God -- so do the Muslims.

AND Jesus is their Lord....unlike the Muslims.
just ask them, or read their testimony's.

again, taking the mark of the beast is directly linked to the breaking of the first commandment.
Rapturists, and the rest, including most posties, will not be guilty of this until Satan is here defacto and seduces them.

But, they have placed their salvation in the false messiah -- not the true Christ. They have already taken the mark of the beast.

not true. They love the Lord. ask them
and again, posties will fall too.
ALL those that do, will put their trust in the false instead of the True Messiah.

And the mark cannot be even dealt out until the second beast of Rev13 deals it.
he has to be here to do so.

his appearance will cause them to take the mark and worship him as God.

Douggg · Apr 26, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Where in Rev. 17 is there a beast with horns, heads, and crowns called out or seen by John??

Status of the beast at the time of John, 1st century
In Revelation 17:3. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Status of the beast at the beginning of the end times 7 years
In Revelation 12: 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Status of the beast with 42 months left in the 7 years
In Revelation 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

I never said that Rev. 17 spoke of the first age. What one learns from Rev. 17 is the definition of the 10 horns being 10 non-earthly kings. As Rev. 12:3 speaks of the same 10 kings as Rev. 13:1, one knows that it is the same 10 kings who reigned in the first age that will reign again in the future.

In the kjv, Revelation 17 doesn't say anything about "non-earthly" kings. 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

They are ten end times kings. That's why in Revelation 17:3, they (the ten horns) don't have any crowns.

Revelation 17 is the status of he beast at the time of the first century because John in Revelation 17:10 said of the seven (sequential) kings, that five have fallen and one is . The one is is the sixth king, ruling at the time of John 1st century. These are those 7 sequential kings of the fourth empire, the Roman Empire, plus the 8th king, the beast from the bottomless pit.

Revelation 17
five fallen kings:
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius

6. Nero (ruling at the time of John 1st century)

7. end times king descended from the above Julio-Claudian family bloodline (Caesar is a family name). This end times king will be a Jew - who will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the required 7 year period as required by Deuteronomy 31:10-11. This king 7, a Jew, will be the Antichrist man, i.e. false king messiah, who will be mistakenly embraced by the Jews as their long awaited messiah.

The Antichrist man arrives out of the EU, specifically from the country or region of Macedonia in my opinion. When will he emerge? At the end of Gog/Magog destruction of islam and control over the temple mount. As the seventh king, he will be the mortally wounded head on the beast in Revelation 13:3.

8. king 8 will be the beast (a disembodied spirit) who will ascend out of the bottomless pit, who was connected with ancient babylon, one world system, and foundation of all false religions, , imo, Nimrod (the Assyrian).... to incarnate the slain and miraculously recovered Antichrist man, halfway through the 7 years. The resultant Antichrist beast rules for the last 42 months of the 7 years.

No it doesn't. See Rev. 9:5. The time was shortened to 5 months -- not 42 months [or 84 months].

Revelation 9:5 is only one trumpet judgment. It last for 5 months, during the 42 months. There is nothing in the Revelation 9 regarding shortening the 42 months.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
John did not see any horned, headed, and crowned beast in Rev. 17. So, the reference 'which thou sawest' refers back to the two beasts described in Rev. 12:3 and 13:1.

Again, in Revelation 17, the beast is in verse 3.

17:3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

So, if you think that 12:3 and 13:1 are both future separate one-world orders, have at it. I don't think that you will be successful in proving it.

No, I don't think either. Revelation 12:3 and 13:1 primarily describe the Antichrist. Secondarily, those two passages describe the kingdom of the Antichrist.

Revelation 12 covers the entire 7 years:

Revelation 12:1-5 is a preamble to the rest of the chapter. Those first 5 verses are for the purpose of identifying who the woman is.

Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days is the first half of the 7 years.

Revelation 12:7-13, the midpoint war in heaven (the second heaven)

Revelation 12:14-17, the time, times, and half times, is the second half of the 7 years.

Revelation 13 covers the last 42 month of the 7 years.

13: 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

It isn't 7 years. The time was shortened.

It is 7 years because:

the timeframe of the last week of the 70 weeks (Daniel 9) is 7 years long.

And the two feasts in Ezekiel 39 bookend the 7 years of the Antichrist.

And there are 7 years in Revelation 12. (12:6 + 12:14)

And in Daniel 7, the time, times, and half times that the little horn persecutes the Saints is nominally 3 1/2 years, the second half of the seven years.

And in Daniel 12:1 - and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: is said in Daniel 12:7 to last a time, times, and half times, nominally 3 1/2 years, the second half of the seven years.

Douggg · Apr 26, 2011

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