Arminians

S Walch · Dec 5, 2006

Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Grace is the gift of God which we accept through faith.

GodsElect · Dec 5, 2006

orthedoxy said:
Do you have to do good works to be assured of your salvation?

We do good works because we ARE assured of our salvation.

I think that it is wonerful that you ask all of these questions, it tells me that you have a mind for the things of God, but the question to you is How does the Soviergnty of God and your free will choices coexsist??? when in your mind that God cannot get all of the glory because you made the choice to choose him. Yes we do make REAL CHOICES in life, we have the freedom to do them, however, our freedom is limited, God has more freedom in His choices. Which lead to his greater purposes. We are not Robots. After all, Judas made the very real choice of betraying Jesus, which led the crucifiiction of our lord Jesus Christ. And Judas' making a very real and free decision, although a very evil decision, worked in such a way to ultimatly secure salvation for those who are in Christ. So God's providential soviergnty is in all of the decisions that we do, say, think, because we WILL act upon all things, but only have the freedom which is to do God's will and His will alone. So how free are you to not do anything that God has already planned??? Unless you believe in a God who is not Soviergn. So who gets the Glory for your choice? for HIS will???

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

S Walch · Dec 5, 2006

GodsElect said:
Unless you believe in a God who is not Soviergn.

Believing we have a choice is not taking anything away from God's sovereignty.

Do you even know the meaning of the word?

GodsElect · Dec 5, 2006

S Walch said:
Grace is the gift of God which we accept through faith.

First what gave you Faith??? Is it something you one day decided to do because you were bored?? And what Gifts have you received that you haven't accepted??? You accepted it because that Grace was irresistable. and you could do no other. It was a Gift from God not from yourself, that you couldn't reject or turn away. It was irresistable.
If a man who you had puchased a gift for, who had no arms and no legs,
could not physically receive a gift from you what would you do to have to make him receive it? He couldn't open it, he couldn't touch it. You would have to put in front of him, open it, pull it out of the box, and show it to him and say "This is the gift that I have puchased for you IT IS YOURS." This is what God does for us, as unable and sinful creatures, He has purchased our Gift, HE puts it in front of us opens it and reveals it to us, and says ITS IS YOURS! So how would you go about even accepting this gift that God has already puchased for you, if you had no arms no legs??? You couldn't unless he has done it all for you. Puchased, Given, opened, and made in your posession.

Romans 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

GodsElect · Dec 5, 2006

S Walch said:
Believing we have a choice is not taking anything away from God's sovereignty.

Do you even know the meaning of the word?

http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=119

click on this and then click on "Free Will and Divine Sovereignty"

GrinningDwarf · Dec 5, 2006

S Walch said:
Believing we have a choice is not taking anything away from God's sovereignty.

Do you even know the meaning of the word?

I used to believe that. Then I learned what God's soveriegnty really means.

S Walch · Dec 5, 2006

GrinningDwarf said:
I used to believe that. Then I learned what God's soveriegnty really means.

And realised that what you'd believed was true?

Believing we have a choice doesn't take away God's sovereignty. It's a God given choice, whether you like it or not.

First what gave you Faith???

Do you even understand what the word "Faith" means?

I mean really, does everybody know the words that they're using actually means? This isn't being offensive, I'd just like to know if people really understand what faith is.

The word translated as "faith" in the New Testament is the Greek word pistis which actually means "conviction of the truth" in other words - TRUST.

What makes you TRUST God? Well, I'll tell you - God doesn't MAKE you TRUST Him - He doesn't make you do anything!

I trust God because He has shown himself to be trustworthy - He didn't make me trust Him, He just showed me that He should be trusted, because without trusting Him for everything I do, and trusting Him for my salvation, then I'll not be going to heaven.

Is it something you one day decided to do because you were bored??

Please, don't you even dare try and push off some silly hypothetical situation into why I trust God. It wasn't something that I did "when I was bored" - You don't know a single thing about me nor what God had done with regards to me, so don't try and be a smart-alec about it.

And what Gifts have you received that you haven't accepted???

All of them. The gifts I have from God I have accepted from Him, and I use all of them for His glory. Not because He makes me do so, but because I love Him and therefore I do what He says.

You accepted it because that Grace was irresistable.

Searching the Scriptures, i find nothing that says grace is irresistable, so don't state it like it's a fact, because it's not.

In fact, Here's Acts 13:43

Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Continue in the grace of God eh? Doesn't sound to me like the grace of God is irresistable.

And you could do no other.

I could have rejected Him.

"If we disown Him, He will disown us" - take that as a warning from Paul to a christian - If you disown God, He will disown you. This was a warning to Timothy by the Apsotle Paul, so don't say this is talking about non-Christians.

It was a Gift from God not from yourself, that you couldn't reject or turn away. It was irresistable.

Again, statements with no backing what so ever.

Yes, It was a gift of God, but not one that He forced on me, on you, or on anybody else.

Imblessed · Dec 5, 2006

orthedoxy said:
orthedoxy said:

Is faith necessary for salvation?

Click to expand...

yes, and God enables us to have this faith. It is because of what HE does to us, that we are able to "accept" the gift.

Do you have to do good works to be assured of your salvation?

Click to expand...

I think saying that we "have to do good works" is a bit misleading, because anyone who has faith, WILL do good works. some will do more than others, but it will happen. It can't NOT happen. does that make sense? I would say that if you examine yourself, and you are not seeing good works in your life, you need to find out why. Not doing good works will absolutely cause someone to question their salvation, and why wouldn't it? Because it's part of faith, to do good works.

Arminians believe you have to respond to the grace what is the difference with what you are saying? it's you who is the one that has to confess or eat.

Click to expand...

The big difference is not that we don't agree that we have to respond to grace, but that we believe that it is God who gives us the ABILITY to respond to grace. Arminians believe that God stops short of that, and requires us to 'make a choice'. We believe that All of mankind is only capable of making 1 choice, against God, until God comes in and miraculously changes our hearts. At this point, we are now capable of finally "seeing" and "understanding" the gospel and will respond favorable. We still must respond, but we finally have that ability to do so.
Now, I've heard of arminians who will go so far as to agree with that, but then say that now that our eyes have been opened and we can understand, we STILL must make 'the choice'. That we could still reject God, after He opens our eyes and hearts. Personally, I think it's an impossibility to reject God once He invades your heart and mind. For a time perhaps, but ultimately His will is irresistable.

I don't remember who, at the beginning of this exchange, mentioned that he believes that most american christians are arminian by simple ignorance, because they have never delved into a deeper understanding of the Gospel, but I fully agree with him. We americans are fed a milk diet from the time we become saved to the time we die. It's a sad fact, but one that for a reason known only to God, He allows. I would never say an arminian is not saved, I would just say they are ignorant(and I don't mean that disparagingly at all-- I don't know another word to use) because they have never been taught. To me, that would be a large majority of christians in America. Most of them don't even know what arminianism and calvinism is!!!

I hope this helps in some way.......

In Christ
windi

GrinningDwarf · Dec 5, 2006

Imblessed said:
I would never say an arminian is not saved, I would just say they are ignorant(and I don't mean that disparagingly at all-- I don't know another word to use) because they have never been taught. To me, that would be a large majority of christians in America. Most of them don't even know what arminianism and calvinism is!!!

Amen! Great post! My wife had a really sad experience at Barnes & Noble a couple of months ago. She met a Bible college graduate who had never heard of Reformed theology. Normally that wouldn't be very suprising...but this person had a theology BA! You would think that a theology major would have at least heard of such a major part of Chrisitan history, whether they agreed with it or not.

Imblessed · Dec 5, 2006

S Walch said:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Grace is the gift of God which we accept through faith.

I notice you highlighted 'through faith', and 'gift of God'-- linking them together. Was this on purpose? Because it fits well. The verse is explaining that the faith we have is not of ourselves but a gift of God.

Grace is indeed a gift of God which we accept through faith, however I find it interesting that the writer added the part in the middle "and that is not of yourselves". WHAT was 'not of yourselves'? The readers were/are fully aware that Grace is not of ourselves, so why the addition? Because the writer wanted them to understand that the FAITH was ALSO a gift of God and not something 'of yourselves'

Faith is not something someone can just conjure of out of thin air. It has to be backed up by something solid. Unless of course you are talking of 'blind faith' which is not really faith at all. God has never asked for blind faith. It's like someone asking us to step off a high cliff without understanding why and what the consequences are. Of course we wouldn't do it!!!! He asks us to rely on HIS faithfulness and His covenantal love---but to do that, He must give us the ability to understand it. Once we are able to understand it, we can move on from there, and it is no longer a blind senseless faith. Atheists and non-believers do consider it a blind faith---but of course they would. They have not been given the ability to see and understand. To them, God is asking something impossible. What changes between the time an atheist or non-beleiver does not believe to the time when they do? God opens their eyes. What other explanation is there?

Imblessed · Dec 5, 2006

GrinningDwarf said:
Amen! Great post! My wife had a really sad experience at Barnes & Noble a couple of months ago. She met a Bible college graduate who had never heard of Reformed theology. Normally that wouldn't be very suprising...but this person had a theology BA! You would think that a theology major would have at least heard of such a major part of Chrisitan history, whether they agreed with it or not.

ummm yeah. That is kind of sad. And scary.

S Walch · Dec 6, 2006

I notice you highlighted 'through faith', and 'gift of God'-- linking them together. Was this on purpose? Because it fits well. The verse is explaining that the faith we have is not of ourselves but a gift of God.

Sorry, but I had actually not meant to underline that part.

And no, it does not say that faith (trust) is a gift from God - Read the Greek and understand the structure used.

When paul says "this is a gift of God" the Greek makes it quite clear that He's referring to the grace bit of what He just said.

Grace is thee gift of God, and it's God's grace that saves us, but only if we trust Him.

The whole point of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that grace is a gift from God, not something that we can earn from God. But this gift, that is given freely, is accepted through trust - it's not forced upon us.

mlqurgw · Dec 6, 2006

S Walch said:
Sorry, but I had actually not meant to underline that part.

And no, it does not say that faith (trust) is a gift from God - Read the Greek and understand the structure used.

When paul says "this is a gift of God" the Greek makes it quite clear that He's referring to the grace bit of what He just said.

Grace is thee gift of God, and it's God's grace that saves us, but only if we trust Him.

The whole point of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that grace is a gift from God, not something that we can earn from God. But this gift, that is given freely, is accepted through trust - it's not forced upon us.

Actually the structure of the Greek makes the word "that" refer to all three: salvation, grace and faith. I would also remind you that this isn't the palce to debate Calvinists it is the palce to ask Calvinists.

orthedoxy · Dec 6, 2006

I don't see why does it have to be irresistale grace inorder for God to get the credit?
If I were to give you a gift and you open it why can't you say I get credit for you having a gift?
Do you believe God confess Jesus with your mouth or is it you doing the confessing? Does God recieve Jesus for you? does he believe for you?
Please explain

mlqurgw · Dec 6, 2006

orthedoxy said:
I don't see why does it have to be irresistale grace inorder for God to get the credit?
If I were to give you a gift and you open it why can't you say I get credit for you having a gift?
Do you believe God confess Jesus with your mouth or is it you doing the confessing? Does God recieve Jesus for you? does he believe for you?
Please explain

Maybe you would be better able to understand if we use the term effectual calling rather than irresiable grace. Those whom Christ has saved He effectually calls by His Gospel. No God doesn't believe for us He gives us the ability to believe. We receive Christ in 2 ways: As a glass receives water; passively, and then and only then as a man recieves the water by taking the glass and drinking it. We believe because He has already set up His throne in our hearts. When God gives faith as a gift it belongs to you because it is yours. You possess it as a gift from God.

orthedoxy · Dec 6, 2006

Sorry but i don't think you have answered my question.
If you are the one doing the drinking of the water then why don't you see this as work? why is the Arminian view salvation by works? is it because you have to do something to be saved? Your view is the same in regared of salvation by works.
Arminians say God is doing it you are responding. God gets the credit but you have to do something. I don't see by adding irresistably makes any difference to wether it's salvation by works or not.

kimlva · Dec 6, 2006

Let me give it a try. Hope I can make sense.
Arminians believe that God calls everybody equally, and that everyone has an equal chance to choose Him or not. Thus, if one does choose Him, it is effectually their choice that saves them. Their work of choosing.

Calvinists believe that God only calls (inward call) His elect, and that He also makes sure that they carry out the conditions He requires for salvation. Therefore, the individual can take no credit for it.

Not all who are Calvinists will agree with me on this, but I think much confusion comes from Calvinists trying to do the same thing Arminians do, and explain things in a more savory manner, to make God sound "better."

God is God, and He chooses whom He will (has already done so before the foundation of the world, according to the Bible), and causes them to do exactly what He requires them to do. So no person can take any credit whatsoever for what they do. There are many who say this makes us puppets. I actually have no problem with that at all. The Bible actually uses the word slave. We are all slaves (or puppets) to a master. Either God's slaves, or satan's (sin's) slaves.

( Sorry if I am repeating someone else. I didn't read through the whole thing.)

Imblessed · Dec 6, 2006

orthedoxy said:
I don't see why does it have to be irresistale grace inorder for God to get the credit?

I actually don't think most arminians "steal" the credit from God, I think they just fail to understand what 'grace' really is...

If I were to give you a gift and you open it why can't you say I get credit for you having a gift?

the point is that before God turns your heart around, you cannot recieve the gift. You don't know it's a gift, you don't want the gift, you don't understand the gift.....

Do you believe God confess Jesus with your mouth or is it you doing the confessing? Does God recieve Jesus for you? does he believe for you?

Yes, it's you doing the confessing. God just makes it possible for you to do it.......

Imblessed · Dec 6, 2006

S Walch said:
........

The whole point of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that grace is a gift from God, not something that we can earn from God. But this gift, that is given freely, is accepted through trust - it's not forced upon us.

You won't find one Calvinist who says the gift is forced upon us!!! Why does everyone assume that?

Like He's tying us down and saying "HERE, take this! I don't care if you don't want it..You are saved whether you like it or not!!!"

or, worse yet...

"NO, I don't care if you want to be a christian, or if you believe in Me, or repented or anything---I didn't pick you as elect, so you aren't saved!"

I guess my frustration is clear.......

S Walch · Dec 6, 2006

Imblessed said:
You won't find one Calvinist who says the gift is forced upon us!!! Why does everyone assume that?

There's been more than a few Calvinists that have in more or less words that the gift is forced upon us.

If grace is irresistable, then it's forced, and is therefore, not grace.

Do people also understand what the word grace means?

This is a place to ask calvinists

Then I shall debate no more.

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