Arminianism is the view that exalts the sinner

[cygnusx1]

For those who espouse salvation by Free will , they have failed to see their own self made conundrum ;

I have often thought the FWD (Free will Defence) was flawed as it just moves the same "problem" back one step .

The Free -willers can be guilty of exalting the view of sinners by inventing the perfect excuse " it's not my fault , if you didn't want me to sin why give me free-will" ?

for Free will is an entitlement to act freely , that means no pressure , no conditions , no threats and no demands may be applied to the one who is granted a free-will , where there is control , government and even condemnation there is no free-will merely a controlled environment .

Why punish me for using my free-will if you only wanted me to do whatever I am commanded ?

If you only wanted me to do exactly as you commanded then why not just create Robots ? this "free-will" is my perfect excuse !

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I don't know about the UK, but I know North America is in great need of another "great awakening" led by (once again) Reformed preachers with a fire and burden so deep, they are compelled to speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Everyday I am reminded of the sinking down of this great country I was blessed to be born in, and don't get me wrong, I am thankful to have been born when I was, but I see truth and moral decay at every turn, every level. I am sorry if this is off topic, but reading what you say about "free will", I cannot help but think about how many Christians in America are under the free will spell, free will delusion, and how the (secular humanistic) philosophy of free will actually turns Christians into slaves to legalism and self-righteousness, and how the brainwashing of free will, in the heart and mind of the elect, combined with the Holiness of God, robs them of assurance and peace, and causes much self inflicted wounds, and continually pushes them down because not until we are glorified can we fully and consistently live up to God's Holy standard. I long for a day when the flames of Reformation burn the chaff from the wheat.

 

[Super Kal]

That's a bold assumption, cygnus...

Got any sources from 17th century or classical Arminians to back that claim up?

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

AW, can you tell me why you think there is a "need" for a great awakening when you believe in a system were God is only going to awaken those he has pre-ordained anyway? How is it a "need" per se?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

AW, can you tell me why you think there is a "need" for a great awakening when you believe in a system were God is only going to awaken those he has pre-ordained anyway? How is it a "need" per se?

Because there are many Christians even now, Arminians in need of hearing the truth, whom do not hear the truth at the Church they attend, maybe have never even listened to a Reformed preacher. And, it is wrong to think, just because of predestination and election, the truth does not need to be preached, for one, we do not have God's knowledge of the elect, and we do not know whom God will regenerate through the foolishness of preaching. For two, Jesus commands the gospel to be preached.

 

[cygnusx1]

That's a bold assumption, cygnus...

Got any sources from 17th century or classical Arminians to back that claim up?

two different things ;

the assumption is based upon logical deduction not 17th century works .

I have seen preachers call upon sinners to repent only to bring up "free will" at the last minute inclining their listeners away from the Gospel : Free will is an open invitation to "do whatever you want" "it's your life" "God gave you this freedom to choose so feel free to do what you want" ........ the implications of free-will are diametrically opposed to all aspects of persuasion , you will NEVER find "inform the customer of their right to reject the product" as a sales technique in any textbook !

when preaching the Gospel , the preacher doesn't want to tell the sinner about "human rights" but human WRONGS.

 

[AndOne]

I don't know about the UK, but I know North America is in great need of another "great awakening" led by (once again) Reformed preachers with a fire and burden so deep, they are compelled to speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Everyday I am reminded of the sinking down of this great country I was blessed to be born in, and don't get me wrong, I am thankful to have been born when I was, but I see truth and moral decay at every turn, every level. I am sorry if this is off topic, but reading what you say about "free will", I cannot help but think about how many Christians in America are under the free will spell, free will delusion, and how the (secular humanistic) philosophy of free will actually turns Christians into slaves to legalism and self-righteousness, and how the brainwashing of free will, in the heart and mind of the elect, combined with the Holiness of God, robs them of assurance and peace, and causes much self inflicted wounds, and continually pushes them down because not until we are glorified can we fully and consistently live up to God's Holy standard. I long for a day when the flames of Reformation burn the chaff from the wheat.

I think its starting to happen - particularly in Seattle and on the west coast. Seattle USED to be called the least churched city in the country. As of about 2 or 3 years ago you can't say that any longer. The problem is that many old school reformers aren't too thrilled with the fact that you have guys leading the revival who are non-cessationist. Sorry - but when I see over 500 people get bapitised in one service I have to believe God is doing something special. I personally think its possible that Calvinism could sweep over this country like an uncontrollable viral outbreak sometime in the next 10 to 20 years if things keep happening like that - and if we don't shoot our own selves in the foot in the process.

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Because there are many Christians even now, Arminians in need of hearing the truth, whom do not hear the truth at the Church they attend, maybe have never even listened to a Reformed preacher. And, it is wrong to think, just because of predestination and election, the truth does not need to be preached, for one, we do not have God's knowledge of the elect, and we do not know whom God will regenerate through the foolishness of preaching. For two, Jesus commands the gospel to be preached.

Oh, so you weren't talking about a great awakening for salvation, but for reformed theology?

Does conversion to Calvinism work the same way that conversion to salvation works? Meaning, do you believe God has to grant some special grace for a believer to accept Calvinistic doctrine, or is that something believers are free (contra-causually) to decide?

If the former, then why doesn't he grant that grace to all his children?
If the latter, what makes you better that you would accept this 'truth' while the rest of us poor saps just can't get it right?

 

[Pinkman]

- and if we don't shoot our own selves in the foot in the process.

If you can shoot yourself in the foot then it is NOT FROM GOD then is it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh, so you weren't talking about a great awakening for salvation, but for reformed theology?

Does conversion to Calvinism work the same way that conversion to salvation works? Meaning, do you believe God has to grant some special grace for a believer to accept Calvinistic doctrine, or is that something believers are free (contra-causually) to decide?

If the former, then why doesn't he grant that grace to all his children?
If the latter, what makes you better that you would accept this 'truth' while the rest of us poor saps just can't get it right?

We know that you think that Calvinism is wrong, you've made that plain. But there is no need to be sarcastic. For those who believe in free will, why is it such a problem that Calvinists exercise their free will (as it is so often defined) to believe Calvinist doctrine, and find comfort in it?

Men can make choices, but it is a misnomer to think and teach that the will is in any real sense, truly free. Man's will is constrained by circumstances, motives, desires, and his own nature, to name but a few of those constraints.

The only truly free will in existence is God's Will.

 

[nobdysfool]

If you can shoot yourself in the foot then it is NOT FROM GOD then is it.

Possibly, but then again, we don't underestimate the ability of men to take that which is good and twist it around into something not as good...witness the Roman Church....

 

[Pinkman]

We know that you think that Calvinism is wrong, you've made that plain. But there is no need to be sarcastic. For those who believe in free will, why is it such a problem that Calvinists exercise their free will (as it is so often defined) to believe Calvinist doctrine, and find comfort in it?

Men can make choices, but it is a misnomer to think and teach that the will is in any real sense, truly free. Man's will is constrained by circumstances, motives, desires, and his own nature, to name but a few of those constraints.

The only truly free will in existence is God's Will.

Yeah you are right. I am getting sarcastic and should cool it.

Its not so much I think Calvinism is wrong. Some of it yes but also some of any thing else also wrong.

I don't get the bottom line. I wish I did. The really rock bottom line is that we are just puppets. I do want to avoid that at all costs.

Obviously I do not know the solution. However I cannot bring myself to write off e.g Orthodox. Quick example. Reading a book "Christianity through middle eastern eyes" (forgot who the author is.) The author explains about Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem. "No room in the Inn" - more like "No space in the room". My belief is us westerners are so stuck in our traditions we can no longer see properly. We have become blinkered. If I betted, I would bet that when/if we find the solution we will be kicking ourselves for missing it.


You say "truly free". I would go with we have more freedom than we know what to do with. Even though not enough to save ourselves. Obviously not enough to know the secret council of God's will. Not enough to thwart God one Jot.

To say we are not free is to me to say that God is not all powerful. Bringing God down to our finite mind.

 

[AndOne]

If you can shoot yourself in the foot then it is NOT FROM GOD then is it.

Its not for me say - I won't ever question the way the Holy Spirit does things. Regardless - it hasn't happened yet.

 

[nobdysfool]

To say we are not free is to me to say that God is not all powerful. Bringing God down to our finite mind.

God's power and His all-powerfulness is in no way contingent on man's freedom, or relative lack thereof. At least, that's what it seems to me you are saying. Man not being free does not in any way limit God's absolute freedom.

I find your statement rather curious.

 

[cygnusx1]

We know that you think that Calvinism is wrong, you've made that plain. But there is no need to be sarcastic. For those who believe in free will, why is it such a problem that Calvinists exercise their free will (as it is so often defined) to believe Calvinist doctrine, and find comfort in it?

Men can make choices, but it is a misnomer to think and teach that the will is in any real sense, truly free. Man's will is constrained by circumstances, motives, desires, and his own nature, to name but a few of those constraints.

The only truly free will in existence is God's Will.

Good post Jim !

we all know what coercion and blackmail are , and the opposite extreme we all know what "no obligation" "no pressure" mean but ,

How do we describe an offer (salvation) that is loaded with "if you obey you will be saved " and "if you don't obey the Gospel you will be damned" ..... where does that figure in the gramatical scheme of things Jim ?



I recall Jesus said "none can come to me unless the Father draw them " , the Greek word for draw means literally "drag" as men drag nets , hence some HOLY force is used.

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

We know that you think that Calvinism is wrong, you've made that plain. But there is no need to be sarcastic.

I wasn't intending to be sarcastic. That was an honest question based upon his response.

For those who believe in free will, why is it such a problem that Calvinists exercise their free will (as it is so often defined) to believe Calvinist doctrine, and find comfort in it?

Are you affirming that saved men do have contra-causual (libertarian) free will? I ask because many Calvinists claim it is a "logical impossibility."

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Now that you know I wasn't being sarcastic maybe you can answer my question:

Does conversion to Calvinism work the same way that conversion to salvation works? Meaning, do you believe God has to grant some special grace for a believer to accept Calvinistic doctrine, or is that something believers are free (contra-causually) to decide?

If the former, then why doesn't he grant that grace to all his children?
If the latter, what makes you better that you would accept this 'truth' while the rest of us poor saps just can't get it right?

 

[Pinkman]

Possibly, but then again, we don't underestimate the ability of men to take that which is good and twist it around into something not as good...witness the Roman Church....

Hi nobdysfool

My understanding is that after the reformation. The Catholic church also reformed.

In my local church we have the 'global opinion' that Catholicism is wrong, Its kind of "we are prots therefore...."

A year ago I was in France and witnessed a very old lady struggle into church.

Do I condemn her for going to a catholic church ? I find I cannot do that. What ever the legalism, my feeling is the intent is what matters, ( maybe I am wrong. shoot me down if so)

OK in typing all this stuff I have forgotten my point. At the time I was humbled. I belonged to an elite church _ The Open Brethren - Maybe a coincidence that my early teaching in Sunday school matched . My problem which I never overcame is the elitism.


Same now. Hence I am against Calvinism as published. Also against anything else that puts us as superior.. Again, shoot down. When we come before the judgement seat, we come as utter guttersnipes. Only by being covered by Christ's blood we get in.

Don't know how that it resolves into the Calvinism vs debate. But as I said before. We must resolve it. Time to stop fannying about.
arnimiam

 

[nobdysfool]

I wasn't intending to be sarcastic. That was an honest question based upon his response.

Maybe some work should be done on delivery, and the framing of points...

Are you affirming that saved men do have contra-causual (libertarian) free will? I ask because many Calvinists claim it is a "logical impossibility."

Why is it that what I say is taken in a way I did not intend or even try to say? HUGE assumption on your part. We all make choices. No Calvinist denies this. But free will is such a slippery concept. I will not presume to speak for all Calvinists here. My understanding is that men are free to make choices within the framework of their circumstances, inclinations, and desires. They also make choices based on the information available to them at the time of choosing. Not all choices are life-changing, or salvific in nature, and I believe that man cannot make a salvific choice unaided, because that choice is against his nature. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must regenerate the person (the New Birth) so that that person may hear and understand the Gospel, thereby receiving faith with which to believe and embrace the provision of the Gospel. OK?

Choosing to believe Calvinist theology is not a salvific action, and is a choice made POST-conversion. Let's not confuse and muddy the point with rash assumptions made in haste to try and score a "gotcha!" point, which this so obviously was an attempt to do. Your agenda is showing....

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Choosing to believe Calvinist theology is not a salvific action, and is a choice made POST-conversion. Let's not confuse and muddy the point with rash assumptions made in haste to try and score a "gotcha!" point, which this so obviously was an attempt to do.

This is an honest and often debated point of contention even in scholarly circles. It involves the will of man post regeneration.

Now, please answer the question. Does a believer have a free choice in regard to accepting or rejecting Calvinistic dogma? Or must God grant him some measure of grace to enable this choice?