Arminianism and Calvinism. Why only two options?

Ormly · Feb 20, 2008

genez said:
Terms are created by the church in order to describe what Scripture reveals.

Ok, then show where the "term" total depravity is revealed in the scripture?

Why don't you just admit it ain't in the scripture? Nowhere is it alluded to in the scriptures that man was ever totally depraved. But you keep at it, you might learn something about what you believe, to be false.

GenemZ · Feb 20, 2008

Ormly said:
Ok, then show where the "term" total depravity is revealed in the scripture?

Why don't you just admit it ain't in the scripture? Nowhere is it alluded to in the scriptures that man was ever totally depraved. But you keep at it, you might learn something about what you believe, to be false.

In many places.

Here's a few..

Psalm 14:2-3 (New King James Version)
"The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

Romans 3:9-11 (New King James Version)
"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
As it is written:

 There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God."

If it were not for the intervention of God in men's hearts? If he did not supply the needed grace to enable us to be placed in a position to evaluate God's reality? No one would be saved.

.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 20, 2008

genez said:
Did you read the rest of what I presented? I was not just commenting on the Calvinists debate tactic.

I would like to have what I stated as being the means to how men become saved, debated.

I believe its the answer to how men get saved, and explains why Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and yet only some get saved - not all.

It also shows how what the Calvinists see wrong with Arminianists thinking, is true up to a point... And, how Arminianists see the mechanical cold approach too many Calvinists take, as being impossible in the light of the nature of God's love, justice, and mercy.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

To be saved you must believe on Jesus Christ,his death and resurrection.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2008

onwingsaseagles said:
To be saved you must believe on Jesus Christ,his death and resurrection.

You are thinking on another plain of thought. Of course that is what man ends up doing when he is saved. The question of the Calvinism - Arminianism debate? Is how man reaches the point where he is able to believe in Christ. That is what this thread is about.

Man can not simply believe in his own power and ability. Our depravity we inherited in the fall will not allow for it. We do not have the power to overcome our spiritual blindness on our own.

Jesus, said so.

John 6:44 (New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65 (New International Version)
"He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Now? How that takes place? How the Father draws men? How the Father enables men to believe in Christ? That is the topic of this thread.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

.

DeaconDean · Feb 21, 2008

Now? How that takes place? How the Father draws men? How the Father enables men to believe in Christ? That is the topic of this thread.

Since this is the question at hand, lets answer it.

What this whole thread is really boiling down to is two things:

1) God's Sovereignty. The Calvinists position.

2) Man's free will. The Arminian position.

I must say, that in all fairness, the Calvinists side wins the debate.

Hodge advocates regeneration preceding faith:

"It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, The Office of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit's Office in the Work of Regeneration, Section 4.

The duty of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, to reveal Christ, then to regenerate them and lead them to faith and repentance.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic1.pdf

Hodge goes further to say:

"Regeneration an Act of God.

Regeneration is an act of God. It is not simply referred to Him as its giver, and, in that sense, its author, as He is the giver of faith and of repentance. It is not an act which, by argument and persuasion, or by moral power, He induces the sinner to perform. But it is an act of which He is the agent. It is God who regenerates. The soul is regenerated. In this sense the soul is passive in regeneration, which (subjectively considered) is a change wrought in us, and not an act performed by us."

Regeneration an Act of God’s Power.

Regeneration is not only an act of God, but also an act of his almighty power. Agreeably to the express declarations of the Scriptures, it is so presented in the Symbols of the Protestant churches. If an act of omnipotence, it is certainly efficacious, for nothing can resist almighty power...The assertion that regeneration is an act of God’s omnipotence, is, and is intended to be, a denial that it is an act of moral suasion. It is an affirmation that it is “physical” in the old sense of that word, as opposed to moral; and that it is immediate, as

opposed to mediate, or through or by the truth."

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XV, Regeneration,
Regeneration an Act of God., Section 1.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

Charles Hodge was also "hip" to the doctrine that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit came only after regeneration:

"God, or the Spirit of God, testifies to the truth of the Scriptures and of the doctrines which they contain. This testimony, as has been seen, is partly external, consisting in prophecies and miracles, partly in the nature of the truths themselves as related to the intellectual and moral elements of the soul, and partly special and supernatural. Unrenewed men may feel the power of the two former kinds of testimony, and believe with a faith either merely intellectual and speculative, or with what may be called from its ground, a moral faith, which is only temporary. The spiritual form of testimony is confined to the regenerated. It is, of course, inscrutable. The operations of the Spirit do not reveal themselves in the consciousness otherwise than by their effects. We know that men are born of the Spirit, that the Spirit dwells in the people of God and continually influences their thoughts, feelings, and actions. But we know this only from the teaching of the Bible, not because we are conscious of his operations. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John iii.8.)"

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Section 4, Faith and Knowledge,
What is meant by the Testimony of the Spirit, p. 58.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

He goes further on to show:

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture.

"That this is the Scriptural doctrine on the subject is plain from the express declarations of the Scriptures. Our Lord promised to send the Spirit for this very purpose. “He will reprove the world of sin,” especially of the sin of not believing in Christ; “and of righteousness,” that is, of his righteousness, — the rightfulness of his claims to be regarded and received as the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, and the Saviour of the world, “and of judgment,” that is, of the final overthrow of the kingdom of darkness and triumph of the kingdom of light. (John xvi. 8.) Faith, therefore, is

always represented in Scripture as one of the fruits of the Spirit, as the gift of God, as the product of his energy (Colossians ii. 12)."

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Faith and Knowledge,

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture., Section 1, p. 59

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

It is very clear from Hodge's Systematic Theology, that the work of the Holy Spirit follows as such:

The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner.

Only after regeneration, faith and repentance has taken place, does the Holy Spirit indwell the believer.

Continued...

DeaconDean · Feb 21, 2008

In Vol III does Hodge address the Office and Work of the Holy Spirit. In chapter 8, of Vol I, Theology proper, there are only three sections and they are:

1) His Nature

2) The Office of the Holy Spirit

3) History of the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

I mentioned what happens to the sinner prior to regeneration.

I have Hodge's Systematic Theology, both in the three volume set, and on cd.

And in Volume I, he addresses the aspect of God as a trinity. And as a trinity, he addresses how each one works. And in volume I he addresses the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

And how does the Holy Spirit work in salvation?

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

The fact is, God does all the work, not man. Jesus said that if he be lifted up, He would draw all men to Him. Jesus also said that He had chose the disciples and not the other way around. And Jesus said that it is God who draws man to Him.

Psa. 64:5 makes this very, very clear:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee,"

And the fact still remains, since Jesus has returned to the Father, the Holy Spirit is here to continue His work.

Try reading John 16:8-10.

God Bless

Till all are one.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2008

DeaconDean said:
Since this is the question at hand, lets answer it.

What this whole thread is really boiling down to is two things:

1) God's Sovereignty. The Calvinists position.

2) Man's free will. The Arminian position.

I must say, that in all fairness, the Calvinists side wins the debate.

That was not in all fairness. You did not read the introductory posts that explained that both Calvinism and Arminianism have problems.

And, what you just did? Was what the complaint was. Calvinists always assume one is Arminian if he does not line up with Beza's position.

This has got to to with something other. I suggest you start from the beginning and follow the unfolding of the concept, please. You just did what was the first complaint!

Grace and peace, GeneZ

DeaconDean · Feb 21, 2008

genez said:
That was not in all fairness. You did not read the introductory posts that explained that both Calvinism and Arminianism have problems.

And, what you just did? Was what the complaint was. Calvinists always assume one is Arminian if he does not line up with Beza's position.

This has got to to with something other. I suggest you start from the beginning and follow the unfolding of the concept, please. You just did what was the first complaint!

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Did you not say:

Now? How that takes place? How the Father draws men? How the Father enables men to believe in Christ? That is the topic of this thread.

I have answered you question and you complain about it.

Geez......

I'm outta here, talk about double talk?

God Bless

Till all are one.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2008

DeaconDean said:
Did you not say:

I have answered you question and you complain about it.

Geez......

I'm outta here, talk about double talk?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry. Maybe, you would reconsider? Read what was said that led up to where you jumped in? Now, I can see how you assumed what you did. Sorry, again.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

.

Ormly · Feb 21, 2008

genez said:
In many places.

Here's a few..

Psalm 14:2-3 (New King James Version)

"The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,

To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

They have all turned aside,

They have together become corrupt;

There is none who does good,

No, not one."

Romans 3:9-11 (New King James Version)

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

As it is written:

 There is none righteous, no, not one;

There is none who understands;

There is none who seeks after God."

If it were not for the intervention of God in men's hearts? If he did not supply the needed grace to enable us to be placed in a position to evaluate God's reality? No one would be saved. .

WAIT ONE!! The specifics of who was being addressed notwithstanding, it reads that they "turned asided". Turned aside from what??? How is it they were once part of something and turned asided from it? How is it that one depraved was ever a part of anything of righteousness. In other words, depraved individuals were never; could never be part of anything God was then doing. Rebelliousness is another issue.

FWIW, your attempt to make the oft mis-quoted verse. "none righteous, no not one" fit, won't wash. It does not apply to depravity as is most often asserted to mean.

Ormly · Feb 21, 2008

genez said:
You are thinking on another plain of thought. Of course that is what man ends up doing when he is saved. The question of the Calvinism - Arminianism debate? Is how man reaches the point where he is able to believe in Christ. That is what this thread is about.

Situations and circumstances and an un-depraved heart.

Man can not simply believe in his own power and ability. Our depravity we inherited in the fall will not allow for it. We do not have the power to overcome our spiritual blindness on our own.

Man must certainly can since he never inherited depravity from anyone.

Jesus, said so.

Jesus did not say so if you read for understanding.

<B>

John 6:44 (New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

He also said no one can go to the Father except through Him.

You are cherry-picking verses to make fit what you espouse.</B>

John 6:65 (New International Version)

Now? How that takes place? How the Father draws men? How the Father enables men to believe in Christ? That is the topic of this thread.

And you will never catch on using your reasoning.

Change it for understanding.,

While you are at it consider changing your "clever" format style for easier reading and replying. Thanks

Grace and peace, Orm

.
[/quote]

ScottBot · Feb 21, 2008

onwingsaseagles said:
To be saved you must believe on Jesus Christ,his death and resurrection.

Only God gives us the ability to have faith. That is what grace is.

God, through the gift of grace, gives us the capacity for faith. At that point, our free will responds to that grace by faith in Christ. This premise is entirely biblical. If you think that you have the capacity for faith without grace, then that is an ancient heresy called semi-pelagianism.

Ormly · Feb 21, 2008

ScottBot said:
Only God gives us the ability to have faith. That is what grace is.

God, through the gift of grace, gives us the capacity for faith. At that point, our free will responds to that grace by faith in Christ. This premise is entirely biblical. If you think that you have the capacity for faith without grace, then that is an ancient heresy called semi-pelagianism.

That is NOT was Grace is about.

Mis-directed or not, everyone has faith in something or faith in nothing. Faith is simply the ability to believe. Grace is the overflowing or revealing of the Nature of God. Man's sees it and makes a decision about it. He makes his choice. To whatever degree he follows after what he chooses is the degree of his sincerity to what he believes.

ScottBot · Feb 21, 2008

Ormly said:
That is NOT was Grace is about.

Mis-directed or not, everyone has faith in something or faith in nothing. Faith is simply the ability to believe. Grace is the overflowing or revealing of the Nature of God. Man's sees it and makes a decision about it. He makes his choice. To whatever degree he follows after what he chooses is the degree of his sincerity to what he believes.

You cannot have faith without grace. The Scriptures are explicit on this matter.

[bible]romans 5:2[/bible]
[bible]ephesians 2:8[/bible]
[bible]acts 18:27[/bible]
[bible]galatians 1:15[/bible]

nobdysfool · Feb 21, 2008

Ormly said:
While you are at it consider changing your "clever" format style for easier reading and replying

Why don't you quit trying to tell others what to do? Who died and left you in charge?

Ormly · Feb 21, 2008

ScottBot said:
You cannot have faith without grace. The Scriptures are explicit on this matter.

[bible]romans 5:2[/bible]
[bible]ephesians 2:8[/bible]
[bible]acts 18:27[/bible]
[bible]galatians 1:15[/bible]

All people are born with Grace and in Grace.

ScottBot · Feb 21, 2008

Ormly said:
All people are born with Grace and in Grace.

Really! Show me that one.

Ormly · Feb 21, 2008

ScottBot said:
Really! Show me that one.

Shouldn't have to.

Grace is not a gift, salvation is and it is by the overflowing of the Nature of God in physical form now made Spiritual; Jesus Christ.

Get that sortted out and you will see Grace to be something you were born with and are given to understand and protect.

ScottBot · Feb 21, 2008

Ormly said:
Shouldn't have to.

Grace is not a gift, salvation is and it is by the overflowing of the Nature of God in physical form now made Spiritual; Jesus Christ.

Get that sortted out and you will see Grace to be something you were born with and are given to understand and protect.

Grace is not a gift? Do you even own a bible?

Ormly · Feb 21, 2008

ScottBot said:
Grace is not a gift? Do you even own a bible?

I told you what grace was. Care to refute it?

Arminianism and Calvinism. Why only two options?

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

Well-Known Member

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Revolutionary

Senior Veteran

Revolutionary

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Senior Veteran

Revolutionary

Senior Veteran

Revolutionary

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency