Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[LamorakDesGalis]

So people are robots, but we just don't know it?

Calvinists hold to both God's sovereignty and mankind's responsibility.

If you think Calvinists think people are "robots" then you don't have any real understanding of Calvinism.


LDG

 

[chestertonrules]

Calvinists hold to both God's sovereignty and mankind's responsibility.

If you think Calvinists think people are "robots" then you don't have any real understanding of Calvinism.


LDG

Actually, I think the problem is that Calvinists don't like to view their ideas rationally.

If a man can only choose one course, how is he not a robot?

 

[Hentenza]

God also predestines based on his foreknowledge. He knows who will choose him when given the opportunity.

In Catholicism, the two poles on the free will/grace spectrum are Thomism and Molinism. Molinism developed later and I think it is much more comprehensive and scripturally sound.

Molinism teaches that there is no built-in difference, but only an external accidental difference between sufficient and efficacious grace. God gives every person sufficient grace for all supernatural actions he or she is to perform. If one freely accepts the grace offered and cooperates with it, a salutary action is produced; this co-operation automatically makes a sufficient grace an efficacious one. If the free will refuses its co-operation, the grace remains sufficient only. God from all eternity foresees the free consent of the human will by his infallible foreknowledge of what a person would do with whatever grace he or she received. Why god chooses to give the person the precise grace he does, foreseeing whether that person will accept or reject it, is left as a mystery in God.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34931

I don't disagree except with the concept of cooperation and application of grace as defined above. Of course you knew I would.

Biblically, cooperation is measured by doing the "works" that God has prepared in advance for us so that we can't boast (sanctification) and "grace" is freely given by God to the "righteous" which He himself made "righteous" at the time of justification. Since, justification is a free gift then sanctification can only occur with the indwelling of the paraclete. Nothing that we do of ourselves can save us.

 

[chestertonrules]

I don't disagree except with the concept of cooperation and application of grace as defined above. Of course you knew I would.

Biblically, cooperation is measured by doing the "works" that God has prepared in advance for us so that we can't boast (sanctification) and "grace" is freely given by God to the "righteous" which He himself made "righteous" at the time of justification. Since, justification is a free gift then sanctification can only occur with the indwelling of the paraclete. Nothing that we do of ourselves can save us.

My feeling is that we can't boast because we are not capable of pleasing God without his grace.

Don't you agree that cooperation with God's grace requires works, ie. obeying Jesus?

Justification is not a free gift. James tells us that justification comes through works, not by faith alone.

I agree that nothing we do by ourselves can save us. However, I don't think God saves those who do nothing.

 

[Hentenza]

My feeling is that we can't boast because we are not capable of pleasing God without his grace.

I agree but also will add that even those that have grace still can not please God on their own.

Don't you agree that cooperation with God's grace requires works, ie. obeying Jesus?

How do you define obeying Jesus?

Justification is not a free gift. James tells us that justification comes through works, not by faith alone.

We are at polar ends of this.
James is merely explaining what Paul said in light of the works that God prepared for us to do. If our faith does not contain works then our faith is dead. This refers to the fruits that the true believer will do after being justified. Justification is the removal of sin while sanctification is the progressive removal of the lust of sin (but we still sin). Both Paul and James are not in disagreement.

I agree that nothing we do by ourselves can save us. However, I don't think God saves those who do nothing.

Those who do nothing do not have the fruits of the spirit and therefore, were never justified to begin with. Lip service alone won't get us saved. Remember that some will claim that they know Jesus but Jesus will tell them that He does not know them.

 

[chestertonrules]

How do you define obeying Jesus?

Loving God and others. Love requires sacrifice and effort.

We are at polar ends of this.
James is merely explaining what Paul said in light of the works that God prepared for us to do. If our faith does not contain works then our faith is dead. This refers to the fruits that the true believer will do after being justified. Justification is the removal of sin while sanctification is the progressive removal of the lust of sin (but we still sin). Both Paul and James are not in disagreement.

Of faith will die if we live in sin. We must act on our faith. Our faith does not guarantee our cooperation with God's grace, even the demons believe.




Those who do nothing do not have the fruits of the spirit and therefore, were never justified to begin with. Lip service alone won't get us saved. Remember that some will claim that they know Jesus but Jesus will tell them that He does not know them.

 

[DD2008]

Christ is victorious, I agree.
But I'm interested in reading a response to my previous questions.

I gave you a response. You must not have seen it. I included a link as well.

Here is an exerpt from the link:

1. STATEMENT OF THE DOCTRINE​

IN the Westminster Confession the doctrine of Total Inability is stated as follows: — “Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”l
Paul, Augustine, and Calvin have as their starting point the fact that all mankind sinned in Adam and that all men are “without excuse,” Rom. 2:1. Time and again Paul tells us that we are dead in trespasses and sins, estranged from God, and helpless. In writing to the Ephesian Christians he reminded them that before they received the Gospel they were “separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world,” 2:12. There we notice the five-fold emphasis as he piles phrase on top of phrase to stress this truth.

Here is the link: http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

 

[MamaZ]

Only when men humble themselves before God will man understand how depraved they really are.. For My Father is a Holy God and He demands holiness. How does one get Holiness if one does not have Christ in them?

 

[chestertonrules]

Only when men humble themselves before God will man understand how depraved they really are.. For My Father is a Holy God and He demands holiness. How does one get Holiness if one does not have Christ in them?

Who made us so depraved?

Who created us?

 

[ReformedChapin]

You can't defend your dogma with the bible unless you distort the words, as I have demonstrated.

Can you give me an example of Papist bias in our understanding of God's grace and justification?

Sorry about the late response.

So what you are saying is that you believe in sola scriptura? Welcome brother change your icon.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Who made us so depraved?

Who created us?

God created us in a innocent state, we made are depraved because of the fall.

 

[chestertonrules]

1. STATEMENT OF THE DOCTRINE​

IN the Westminster Confession the doctrine of Total Inability is stated as follows: — “Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”l
Paul, Augustine, and Calvin have as their starting point the fact that all mankind sinned in Adam and that all men are “without excuse,” Rom. 2:1. Time and again Paul tells us that we are dead in trespasses and sins, estranged from God, and helpless. In writing to the Ephesian Christians he reminded them that before they received the Gospel they were “separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world,” 2:12. There we notice the five-fold emphasis as he piles phrase on top of phrase to stress this truth.

Here is the link: http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

Paul makes it clear that thanks to Jesus we have been restored to life and are capable of seeking God.

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

This is begging the question and only serves to try and demonize the other side which neither Thekla nor I have done. What she wrote was in the context of a question and not a definitive statement of the doctrine of her side.

1. I never said anything about or to you at all.

2. That statement by Thekla seem to imply some insufficency in Jesus' atoning work, and yet as I commented, I sincerely doubted that was the veiw being expressed. I left room for an explanation. It wasn't offered.





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[ReformedChapin]

Actually, I think the problem is that Calvinists don't like to view their ideas rationally.

If a man can only choose one course, how is he not a robot?

What law of logic are breaking? I'm genuinely interested in this. I love logic.

 

[DD2008]

You can't defend your dogma with the bible unless you distort the words, as I have demonstrated.

You have simply demonstrated that one cannot hold your molinist view if one has a full view of scripture.

You can't just pick and choose verses.

God elects those who wil be saved. There is a process but in the end it all comes back to God elected who will be saved. He knows.

Here is the Ordo Salutis: 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

Many scriptures refer to points during this period.

 

[chestertonrules]

God created us in a innocent state, we made are depraved because of the fall.

Whose fault was the fall?

You said it was not a surprise to God. Are you now saying that God did not want Adam and Eve to sin?

Did God create Satan?

 

[MamaZ]

Who made us so depraved?

Who created us?

Wow round and round we go., Adam and Eve.. God did through procreation through once again Adam and Eve

 

[DD2008]

Paul makes it clear that thanks to Jesus we have been restored to life and are capable of seeking God.

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

Right after you are in Christ and have received grace not before.

 

[MamaZ]

So according to some it is Gods fault but mens choice to be saved???

 

[chestertonrules]

You have simply demonstrated that one cannot hold your molinist view if one has a full view of scripture.

Please elaborate.

You can't just pick and choose verses.

Of course I can. I can't post the whole bible!

God elects those who wil be saved. There is a process but in the end it all comes back to God elected who will be saved. He knows.

God saves those who, through his grace, do his will. God already knows who these people are, but he didn't force them to follow his will, he enabled them to.