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no, not at all; I agree !When Adam and Eve sinned was God to call that Good?
So can you love God unconditionally? Or does it have to be that God does things as you see fit and just in order for you to love God? Could you love a God that may or may not save your children?
Scripture tells us that God wants all men to be saved.
That God loves the world.
That God is just.
That Jesus draws all men to himself.
That the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.
None of these scriptural truths are compatible with five points calvinism.
Here is a post I wrote in another thread on the same topic:
God created man with the free will to choose. Man chose to sin. That sin permanently changed the nature of man into a state of natural depravity. That is why we die. There was indeed a physical change in man. The sin of adam is imputed naturally to each human being through the male line as Adam is the federal head of mankind. All who are of the lineage of Adam as the federal head will certainly and justifiably die because they are naturally evil.
God through His mercy sent His son to die for us so that our sins may be forgiven. This is the only way that it could be done. Adam is not the federal head of Christ because Christ's father is God Himself! Thus no sin was imputed to him. He is the only one who could ever be an innocent sacrifice to fully complete the law of God through perfect obedience. On the cross Christ took on the sins of the world and bore the guilt and punishment of all mankind through perfectly righteous sacrifice. This was the only way he could have died as he did not earn that punishment in any way though deed or imputation but took it on willingly. God raised him from the dead and he is now sitting at the right hand of the Father in Glory.
Because of this even though we sin because we are sinners by nature we can have the righteousness of Christ who is now the federal head of the Church imputed to us by the grace of God! God is just and right and good to let us reap what we have planted. God is indeed merciful and good and loving to give us a gift of salvation that we don't deserve. The finite cannot contain the infinite and we cannot know the full greatness and glory of His ways and His character. But we do know that he is our savior and has born the punishment of the sins on himself that we earned together as a people. The choice of who he brings to heaven and who he doesn't is His alone and it is just and good.
exactlyI never understood how the Imago Dei in man could be utterly defaced and destroyed by the evil of sin, which, although Calvinists say God ordained for his ultimate purpose, did not in fact create. How can something that God did not create utterly destroy something he did create?
no, not at all; I agree !
But did evil change the essence of God's creation ? Then evil is stronger than God if evil can "recreate/reform" man in the image of evil.
But if God is stronger than evil, then the image of God in man cannot be lost only covered or distorted.
this seems to show that evil is stronger than God; if sin can change the essence of God's creation from good (per God's statement) to totally depraved and completely unlike good, then God's created good is weaker than evil ...
This is a good point. I never understood how the Imago Dei in man could be utterly defaced and destroyed by the evil of sin, which, although Calvinists say God ordained for his ultimate purpose, did not in fact create. How can something that God did not create utterly destroy something he did create?
The fall is the reason we die. We are sinners in bondage to sin.
God has overcome the world. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is thee single greatest example of soverign power we have. Christ succeeded good won.
A natural man will not love God. They are seperated from Him.So how and why does a Calvinist love God? Because he got lucky and won the cosmic lottery? Would you still love God if you knew you were one of the unalterably reprobate?
When God created Adam and Eve and the earth and all it contains He said it is Good. Did Adam and Eve think of eating of the tree before the tempter came? I see in scripture no proof that they did until the deceiver came.. So after they rebelled and sinned so you see God stating it is Good?I would appreciate it if someone would address mine and Thekla's question before it gets lost in the shuffle.
That's a nice description of Calvinism, but it is not biblical. I'll start with Matthew and demonstrate:
Matt 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Who's judging. Calvinists simply accept the bible for what it says. God is the judge, that's what we have been saying.
Matt 7
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Sure prayer is a good thing. It is a great idea to repent and ask forgiveness for your sins. Why did the person want to ask God I wonder? Because God gave him the grace to believe!
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Right. Faith without works is dead, so if one doesn't produce fruit and follow the words of Christ it is indicative that he is not regenerate and does not realy believe.
Matt 10
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
True. Christ is faithful to his Elect. No one can take them out of his hand.
40"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Again God is faithful and true to his family. Why would anyone believe that a person preaching the gospel is a friend of God? Because God gave them the grace to believe that. Because he is revealing his election of that person.
Matt 16
24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
This is an excellent passage that shows that man is fallen. If he naturally wanted the things of God he wouldn't have to deny himself to follow Christ! So one is dead in their sins. One must be reborn live forever. Like birth the rebirth isn't a choice it just happens because God wills it. So when one is reborn his spirit is dead to sin and his old self is put aside. Now he is a new creation and is alive in Christ and lives to do His will.
So how and why does a Calvinist love God? Because he got lucky and won the cosmic lottery? Would you still love God if you knew you were one of the unalterably reprobate?
we read in the scripture where we see after the fall that no one does good no not one.. So why is that do you believe? Why do we also read in the scriptures that the god of this world is now not God but the devil? This is why we are aliens and strangers in this world when we are Christs. For His kingdom is not of this World. Full of sin and death and misery.yes, but still, it cannot (per what I've seen stated her) overcome the destruction of God's created good - this makes Christ's sacrifice too weak to overcome the utter depravity created by evil when evil "reformed" what God said was good into utterly evil.
When God created Adam and Eve and the earth and all it contains He said it is Good. Did Adam and Eve think of eating of the tree before the tempter came? I see in scripture no proof that they did until the deceiver came.. So after they rebelled and sinned so you see God stating it is Good?
That's a nice description of Calvinism, but it is not biblical. I'll start with Matthew and demonstrate:
Who's judging. Calvinists simply accept the bible for what it says. God is the judge, that's what we have been saying.
Sure prayer is a good thing. It is a great idea to repent and ask forgiveness for your sins. Why did the person want to ask God I wonder? Because God gave him the grace to believe!
The Wise and Foolish Builders
Right. Faith without works is dead, so if one doesn't produce fruit and follow the words of Christ it is indicative that he is not regenerate and does not realy believe.
True. Christ is faithful to his Elect. No one can take them out of his hand.
Again God is faithful and true to his family. Why would anyone believe that a person preaching the gospel is a friend of God? Because God gave them the grace to believe that. Because he is revealing his election of that person.
This is an excellent passage that shows that man is fallen. If he naturally wanted the things of God he wouldn't have to deny himself to follow Christ! So one is dead in their sins. One must be reborn live forever. Like birth the rebirth isn't a choice it just happens because God wills it. So when one is reborn his spirit is dead to sin and his old self is put aside. Now he is a new creation and is alive in Christ and lives to do His will.
Unbelievable! You change the meaning of each passage to fit your dogma.
yes, but still, it cannot (per what I've seen stated her) overcome the destruction of God's created good - this makes Christ's sacrifice too weak to overcome the utter depravity created by evil when evil "reformed" what God said was good into utterly evil.
this makes Christ's sacrifice too weak to overcome the utter depravity created by evil when evil "reformed" what God said was good into utterly evil.
Unbelievable!
Right. For fallen man who is full of pride it is.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16
[14] The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
[16] "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
we read in the scripture where we see after the fall that no one does good no not one.. So why is that do you believe? Why do we also read in the scriptures that the god of this world is now not God but the devil? This is why we are aliens and strangers in this world when we are Christs. For His kingdom is not of this World. Full of sin and death and misery.
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