Arminian Vs. Calvinist

DD2008 · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
You didn't answer the question.

Would you love a God who planned to torture your children for eternity?

Everyone actually gets what they want at the end. The only thing a reprobate hates worse than being in hell with other reprobates and the devil and his angels is the thought of being in heaven with the God who he hates and the Church he hates.

So, the reprobate hates God and doesn't want salvation.

God's judgement is just.

chestertonrules · Feb 13, 2009

simonthezealot said:
YES..It is satan who tortures NOT God.

Who sends them to be tortured by Satan?

Your inability to accept the reality of your dogma is telling.

MamaZ · Feb 13, 2009

Who here deserves salvation?

chestertonrules · Feb 13, 2009

DD2008 said:
Everyone actually gets what they want at the end. The only thing a reprobate hates worse than being in hell with other reprobates and the devil and his angels is the thought of being in heaven with the God who he hates and the Church he hates.

So, the reprobate hates God and doesn't want salvation.

God's judgement is just.

Who makes someone reprobate?

chestertonrules · Feb 13, 2009

MamaZ said:
Who here deserves salvation?

Thanks to Jesus, all who follow his will can be saved:

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Thekla · Feb 13, 2009

DD2008 said:
Everyone actually gets what they want at the end. The only thing a reprobate hates worse than being in hell with other reprobates and the devil and his angels is the thought of being in heaven with the God who he hates and the Church he hates.

So, the reprobate hates God and doesn't want salvation.

God's judgement is just.

wouldn't "what they want" indicate agency ?

MamaZ · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
You didn't answer the question.

Would you love a God who planned to torture your children for eternity?

Can you love God unconditionally?

MamaZ · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Thanks to Jesus, all who follow his will can be saved:

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

you didn't answer the question. WHO here deserves salvation?

simonthezealot · Feb 13, 2009

from the calvinist corner

God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and authority, that He answers to no one, and that He may do as He pleases for whatever reason He chooses.
"Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'" (Isaiah 46:10);

...to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28);

...this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross..." (Acts 2:23).

Out of a people of utter sinfulness and inability, God has chosen, by His sovereign grace, to elect some into salvation and not others.

Remember, there is nothing in man that merits any favor, blessing, or mercy whatsoever. For there is no favoritism with God
For[SIZE=+0] there is[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] no[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] respect of persons[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] with[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] God[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE](Rom. 2:11).

Each and every person is entirely worthy of wrath and incapable of saving himself. That is why God has chosen a people to Himself out of the good pleasure of His heart. Because without His choosing, none would ever come to Him. Therefore, predestination is a loving doctrine:
"...In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ..." (Eph. 1:4,5).
He chooses some and ignores others not because of what the person has done, or what is foreknown that he would do, but simply because of God's sovereign choice:
"[God] who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim. 1:9);
and,
"for though the twins had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'" (Rom. 9:11-13; see also, Psalm 11:5).

Sovereignty is why God has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires:
"For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy
...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Rom. 9:15,16,18).
This is sovereignty! It is God who is in control.

Some He has elected to salvation, others He has not:
"...for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed" (1 Pet. 2:8);
And,
"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Rom. 9:22-23).
It seems quite clear that God prepares some for mercy and not others. That is sovereignty.

chestertonrules · Feb 13, 2009

MamaZ said:
Can you love God unconditionally?

I love the God that exists because he is just and merciful.

chestertonrules · Feb 13, 2009

MamaZ said:
you didn't answer the question. WHO here deserves salvation?

Jesus atoned for the whole world, so we all have the opportunity to gain salvation.

We can't earn it on our own, however, so in that respect no one deserves it.

Thankfully, we aren't on our own.

MamaZ · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
I love the God that exists because he is just and merciful.

I don't love the God created by John Calvin. Luckily, he doesn't exist.

So can you love God unconditionally? Or does it have to be that God does things as you see fit and just in order for you to love God? Could you love a God that may or may not save your children?

DD2008 · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
This is clearly not accepted by Calvinist theology. DO THE WILL of the father.

These verses tell us about God:

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

Are we all imprisoned in disobedience?

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

JUST as means JUST LIKE.... Jesus leads all to justification and life. We must accept his grace and follow or reject him.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

Did all die in Adam?

Here is a post I wrote in another thread on the same topic:

God created man with the free will to choose. Man chose to sin. That sin permanently changed the nature of man into a state of natural depravity. That is why we die. There was indeed a physical change in man. The sin of adam is imputed naturally to each human being through the male line as Adam is the federal head of mankind. All who are of the lineage of Adam as the federal head will certainly and justifiably die because they are naturally evil.

God through His mercy sent His son to die for us so that our sins may be forgiven. This is the only way that it could be done. Adam is not the federal head of Christ because Christ's father is God Himself! Thus no sin was imputed to him. He is the only one who could ever be an innocent sacrifice to fully complete the law of God through perfect obedience. On the cross Christ took on the sins of the world and bore the guilt and punishment of all mankind through perfectly righteous sacrifice. This was the only way he could have died as he did not earn that punishment in any way though deed or imputation but took it on willingly. God raised him from the dead and he is now sitting at the right hand of the Father in Glory.

Because of this even though we sin because we are sinners by nature we can have the righteousness of Christ who is now the federal head of the Church imputed to us by the grace of God! God is just and right and good to let us reap what we have planted. God is indeed merciful and good and loving to give us a gift of salvation that we don't deserve. The finite cannot contain the infinite and we cannot know the full greatness and glory of His ways and His character. But we do know that he is our savior and has born the punishment of the sins on himself that we earned together as a people. The choice of who he brings to heaven and who he doesn't is His alone and it is just and good.

MamaZ · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Jesus atoned for the whole world, so we all have the opportunity to gain salvation.

We can't earn it on our own, however, so in that respect no one deserves it.

Thankfully, we aren't on our own.

So then if we do not deserve salvation how is it unjust to not save everybody? How is it not fair? Do you give gifts to everyone on the face of the planet?

LamorakDesGalis · Feb 13, 2009

Rhamiel said:
are the HyperCalvinists the ones who say God created some people for the purpose of burning in hell forever to show his justice?

Yes.

The reason why they say that is based on their lapsarian view (see the chart). In a nutshell, lapsarian views are a logical order of eternal decrees. Supralapsarian views have always been a small minority in Calvinism - less than 5%. The HyperCalvinist view is always supralapsarian, and HyperCalvinists make up less than 1% of all Calvinists.

Many Calvinists like myself simply reject all the lapsarian views, because the whole issue is highly speculative and too presumptive.

HyperCalvinism is an attempt to resolve the tension between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of mankind. Through their lapsarian view, HyperCalvinists emphasize the sovereignty of God over the responsibility of mankind. In other words, the reprobate (lost sinners) can do nothing but sin, and therefore their sinning - and their punishment - is for God's glory. This also leads to viewing the elect as eternally justified, which downplays faith, etc.

Most Calvinists reject that entire line of thinking. We hold to the tension between God's sovereignty and the responsibility of individuals. We believe God did choose individuals to be saved, but also individuals - saved and unsaved - are responsible for their own actions and thoughts.

LDG

Thekla · Feb 13, 2009

God created man with the free will to choose. Man chose to sin. That sin permanently changed the nature of man into a state of natural depravity. That is why we die. There was indeed a physical change in man. The sin of adam is imputed naturally to each human being through the male line as Adam is the federal head of mankind. All who are of the lineage of Adam as the federal head will certainly and justifiably die because they are naturally evil.

this seems to show that evil is stronger than God; if sin can change the essence of God's creation from good (per God's statement) to totally depraved and completely unlike good, then God's created good is weaker than evil ...

MamaZ · Feb 13, 2009

Thekla said:
this seems to show that evil is stronger than God; if sin can change the essence of God's creation from good (per God's statement) to totally depraved and completely unlike good, then God's created good is weaker than evil ...

When Adam and Eve sinned was God to call that Good?

DD2008 · Feb 13, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Who makes someone reprobate?

God does not elect them therfore he leaves them to their own will.

Are you able to judge better than God what to do with them? Were you there before the beginning?

So, how do you even know that their fate isn't better than oblivion? Why does sin exist? Why did God allow it? Why didn't he just make an infallible creation from the beginning.

The answer to all the questions is because He is God. He knows better than we and His plan is the best plan. So everything will turn out for the good because God is trustworthy and reliable.

We cannot know his mind. The finite cannot grasp the infinite.

Spiritual things are known only by those who by grace are spiritual:

1 Corinthian 2:14-16

[14] The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
[16] "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Chesterton · Feb 13, 2009

Did Calvin ever comment on whether Eve and Adam had free will? They either did, or else God gave them a commandment, and then forced them to disobey Him (which would be entirely nonsensical and unjustifiable).

Tzaousios · Feb 13, 2009

Thekla said:
this seems to show that evil is stronger than God; if sin can change the essence of God's creation from good (per God's statement) to totally depraved and completely unlike good, then God's created good is weaker than evil ...

This is a good point. I never understood how the Imago Dei in man could be utterly defaced and destroyed by the evil of sin, which, although Calvinists say God ordained for his ultimate purpose, did not in fact create. How can something that God did not create utterly destroy something he did create?

Arminian Vs. Calvinist

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have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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