Arminian Or Calvinist?

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PrincetonGuy

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"God is not so poor and indigent as not to give to every body its own soul as its proper form. Hence plerothentos ton arithmou ou autos par auto proorise, pantes oi engrapheetes eis zoen anastesontai, having completed the number which he before determined with himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto life, shall rise again, having their own bodies, souls, and spirits, in which they pleased God; but those who are deserving of punishment shall go into it, having also their own souls and bodies in which they departed from the grace of God." --Irenaeus.


I see that you have copied and pasted from a website quoting John Gill—a man who is infamous in the Church for misquoting the Church Fathers, and quoting them out of context to falsely make it appear that they taught that which they did not teach. To refute the fact that none of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers taught the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, John Gill wrote,

Irenaeus has several passages in his writings which favor this doctrine. Allegorizing the history of Lot’s wife, he thus expresses himself: “The church which is the salt of the earth, is left in the confines of the of the earth, suffering the things which are human; and whilst whole members are often taken away from it, perseverat statua salis qued est firmamentum fidei, firmans et praemittens filios ad Patrem ipsorum, ‘ the pillar of salt continues, which is the firmament of faith, confirming and sending before the children to their Father.” He speaks of the grace of love as an abiding one: “Love,” says he, “perfects the perfect man; and he that loves God is perfect both in this world, and in that which is to come; nunquam enim desivimus diligentus Deum, for we never cease loving God, but the more we look upon him, the more we love him.” He also represents the Spirit of God as never leaving the man he has taken up his residence in; for, he says, “The breath of life is one thing, which makes the man animal, and another the quickening Spirit, which makes him spiritual. That which is made is different from him that makes it, wherefore the breath is temporal, to de Pneuma aennaon, the Spirit eternal.” The breath indeed is vigorous for a little while, and remains some time, after which it goes away, leaving it breathless where it was before; but the Spirit encompasses man within and without, ate aei paramonimon oudepote kataleipei auton, as always abiding, and never leaves him.” Yea, he represents it as blasphemy to say, that the members of Christ shall not be saved, but destroyed; for he makes this observation on 1 Corinthians 3:17, If any one defile the temple of God, etc.: Templum igitur Dei in quo Spiritus inhabitat Patris, et membra Christi non participare salutem, sed in perditionem redigi dicere, quomodo non maximae est blasphemiae? Therefore to say, that the temple of God, in which the Spirit of the Father dwells, and the members of Christ, shall not partake of salvation, but be brought down to destruction, is it not the highest blasphemy? Vossius refers to a chapter in Irenaeus, as militating against the doctrine of the saints’ final perseverance, in which are these expressions: “All are of the same nature, and able to retain and do good, and able to lose it again, and not do it.” And a little after, “Disobedience to God, and loss of good, are indeed in the power of man.” But it should be known and observed, that Irenaeus is disputing against those heretics who held, that some men were by nature good, and others evil; whereas, he says, they are all of the same nature, as at first created by God, capable of doing good and evil. Besides, he speaks only of the loss of natural and moral good in the natural man, and not of the loss of spiritual good, or of supernatural grace in the regenerate man. Moreover, Irenaeus has a passage in the very same chapter which seems to favor the saints’ perseverance; for he says, that “the Lord bore all these things for us, that by all things being learned in all, we might be cautious for the future, et perseveremus in omni ejus dilectione, and persevere in all love to him.”

Now let’s see what Irenaeus really wrote,

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book IV
Chap. XXVII — The Sins of the Men of Old Time, Which Incurred the Displeasure of God, Were, by His Providence, Committed to Writing, That We Might Derive Instruction Thereby, and Not Be Filled with Pride. We Must Not, Therefore, Infer That There Was Another God Than He Whom Christ Preached; We Should Rather Fear, Lest the One and the Same God Who Inflicted Punishment on the Ancients, Should Bring Down Heavier upon Us.

1. As I have heard from a certain presbyter, who had heard it from those who had seen the apostles, and from those who had been their disciples, the punishment [declared] in Scripture was sufficient for the ancients in regard to what they did without the Spirit’s guidance. For as God is no respecter of persons, He inflicted a proper punishment on deeds displeasing to Him. As in the case of David, when he suffered persecution from Saul for righteousness’ sake, and fled from King Saul, and would not avenge himself of his enemy, he both sung the advent of Christ, and instructed the nations in wisdom, and did everything after the Spirit’s guidance, and pleased God. But when his lust prompted him to take Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah, the Scripture said concerning him, “Now, the thing (sermo) which David had done appeared wicked in the eyes of the Lord;” and Nathan the prophet is sent to him, pointing out to him his crime, in order that he, passing sentence upon and condemning himself, might obtain mercy and forgiveness from Christ: “And [Nathan] said to him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds; but the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe-lamb, which he possessed, and nourished up; and it had been with him and with his children together: it did eat of his own bread, and drank of his cup, and was to him as a daughter. And there came a guest unto the rich man; and he spared to take of the flock of his own ewe-lambs, and from the herds of his own oxen, to entertain the guest; but he took the ewe-lamb of the poor man, and set it before the man that had come unto him. And David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die (filius mortis est): and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he hath done this thing, and because he had no pity for the poor man. And Nathan said unto him, Thou art the man who hast done this.” And then he proceeds with the rest [of the narrative], upbraiding him, and recounting God’s benefits towards him, and [showing him] how much his conduct had displeased the Lord. For [he declared] that works of this nature were not pleasing to God, but that great wrath was suspended over his house. David, however, was struck with remorse on heating this, and exclaimed, “I have sinned against the Lord;” and he sung a penitential psalm, waiting for the coming of the Lord, who washes and makes clean the man who had 499 been fast bound with [the chain of] sin. In like manner it was with regard to Solomon, while he continued to judge uprightly, and to declare the wisdom of God, and built the temple as the type of truth, and set forth the glories of God, and announced the peace about to come upon the nations, and prefigured the kingdom of Christ, and spake three thousand parables about the Lord’s advent, and five thousand songs, singing praise to God, and expounded the wisdom of God in creation, [discoursing] as to the nature of every tree, every herb, and of all fowls, quadrupeds, and fishes; and he said, “Will God whom the heavens cannot contain, really dwell with men upon the earth?” And he pleased God, and was the admiration of all; and all kings of the earth sought an interview with him (quaerebant faciem ejus) that they might hear the wisdom which God had conferred upon him. The queen of the south, too, came to him from the ends of the earth, to ascertain the wisdom that was in him: she whom the Lord also referred to as one who should rise up in the judgment with the nations of those men who do hear His words, and do not believe in Him, and should condemn them, inasmuch as she submitted herself to the wisdom announced by the servant of God, while these men despised that wisdom which proceeded directly from the Son of God. For Solomon was a servant, but Christ is indeed the Son of God, and the Lord of Solomon. While, therefore, he served God without blame, and ministered to His dispensations, then was he glorified: but when he took wives from all nations, and permitted them to set up idols in Israel, the Scripture spake thus concerning him: “And King Solomon was a lover of women, and he took to himself foreign women; and it came to pass, when Solomon was old, his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God. And the foreign women turned away his heart after strange gods. And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord: he did not walk after the Lord, as did David his father. And the Lord was angry with Solomon; for his heart was not perfect with the Lord, as was the heart of David his father.” The Scripture has thus sufficiently reproved him, as the presbyter remarked, in order that no flesh may glory in the sight of the Lord.

2. It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him. Now all those believed in Him who had hope towards Him, that is, those who proclaimed His advent, and submitted to His dispensations, the righteous men, the prophets, and the patriarchs, to whom He remitted sins in the same way as He did to us, which sins we should not lay to their charge, if we would not despise the grace of God. For as these men did not impute unto us (the Gentiles) our transgressions, which we wrought before Christ was manifested among us, so also it is not right that we should lay blame upon those who sinned before Christ’s coming. For “all men come short of the glory of God,” and are not justified of themselves, but by the advent of the Lord, — they who earnestly direct their eyes towards His light. And it is for our instruction that their actions have been committed to writing, that we might know, in the first place, that our God and theirs is one, and that sins do not please Him although committed by men of renown; and in the second place, that we should keep from wickedness. For if these men of old time, who preceded us in the gifts [bestowed upon them], and for whom the Son of God had not yet suffered, when they committed any sin and served fleshly lusts, were rendered objects of such disgrace, what shall the men of the present day suffer, who have despised the Lord’s coming, and become the slaves of their own lusts? And truly the death of the Lord became [the means of] healing and remission of sins to the former, but Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, “For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.”

3. Thou wilt notice, too, that the transgressions of the common people have been described in like manner, not for the sake of those who did then transgress, but as a means of instruction unto us, and that we should understand that it is one and the same God against whom these 500 men sinned, and against whom certain persons do now transgress from among those who profess to have believed in Him. But this also, [as the presbyter states,] has Paul declared most plainly in the Epistle to the Corinthians, when he says, “Brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and were all baptized unto Moses in the sea, and did all eat the same spiritual meat, and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and the rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. These things were for our example (in figuram nostri), to the intent that we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted; neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them, as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them also did, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. But all these things happened to them in a figure, and were written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the world (saeculorum) is come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.”
 
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Vince53

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My friend Jessica01 pointed out that those who are with Jesus at His Second Coming are "called," and she is correct. Over the centuries, many saints have been excommunicated, cursed, expelled, etc., but they will still be with Jesus when He returns.

Other Scriptures show that all men are called to Christ, and that the call is genuine, but most reject that call.
 
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Albion

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I see that you have copied and pasted


And I see that you have shaded the facts once again, slightly altering your claim each time your assertions are refuted. First it was that the Fathers were unanimously freewill and there was no one teaching predestination until the Reformation. That notion debunked, it became the idea that there was no one saying exactly what Calvin said on this and related subjects until Calvin (!). You then confined your time frame to the Ante-Nicene Church. Then you demanded the words of ANY Father from that period who taught predestination, hoping to save your argument by excluding Augustine.

I gave you the words of Irenaeus (who believed in predestination)...not John Gill. And I can also give you the words of other Fathers who believed in predestination.

You lose. And so does the notion that truth is determined, in this case, by a unanimity among the Early Church Fathers...SINCE THERE WAS NONE.

The end.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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And I see that you have shaded the facts once again, slightly altering your claim each time your assertions are refuted. First it was that the Fathers were unanimously freewill and there was no one teaching predestination until the Reformation. That notion debunked, it became the idea that there was no one saying exactly what Calvin said on this and related subjects until Calvin (!). You then confined your time frame to the Ante-Nicene Church. Then you demanded the words of ANY Father from that period who taught predestination, hoping to save your argument by excluding Augustine.

I gave you the words of Irenaeus (who believed in predestination)...not John Gill. And I can also give you the words of other Fathers who believed in predestination.

You lose. And so does the notion that truth is determined, in this case, by a unanimity among the Early Church Fathers...SINCE THERE WAS NONE.

The end.

No, the quote that you provided was a quote from the writings of John Gill in which he claimed to be quoting Irenaeus. I provided documentation that proves that John Gill was so desperate to find a trace of Calvinism in the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers that he misquoted them and removed the quotes from their original context to make it falsely appear as though the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers taught that which they did not teach. Furthermore, I quoted Irenaeus at length in context proving that he taught the very opposite of what Calvin taught. Since you are attempting to cite Irenaeus as an authority for Biblical truth, here is another pertinent quote from him,
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book III
Chap. IV. — The Truth Is to Be Found Nowhere Else but in the Catholic Church, the Sole Depository of Apostolical Doctrine. Heresies Are of Recent Formation, and Cannot Trace Their Origin up to the Apostles.

1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the 417 water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?
Note: It is absolutely essential for readers to understand that when this work was written, sometime between the years of 182-188, the “Catholic” church was NOT the Roman Catholic Church that we have today and that none of the doctrines that distinguish the Roman Catholic Church from our Protestant churches had yet been introduced into the Church. Gnosticism, however, was attempting to make inroads into the Church and Irenaeus was especially concerned with refuting the heresies of Gnosticism and keeping them out of the Church. Irenaeus very strictly adhered to the teachings of the genuinely apostolic churches that were still present in his day.
 
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Vince53

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Returning to the Biblical doctrine that God calls all men to Him, but that they can reject that call:

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Now, is this a hypocritical command, designed so that men cannot possibly answer, or is it a sincere command?

Romans 2:4 tells us "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" God not only commands all men everywhere to repent, but He bestows His love on them in order to lead them to repentance.
 
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And I see that you have shaded the facts once again, slightly altering your claim each time your assertions are refuted. First it was that the Fathers were unanimously freewill and there was no one teaching predestination until the Reformation. That notion debunked, it became the idea that there was no one saying exactly what Calvin said on this and related subjects until Calvin (!). You then confined your time frame to the Ante-Nicene Church. Then you demanded the words of ANY Father from that period who taught predestination, hoping to save your argument by excluding Augustine.

I gave you the words of Irenaeus (who believed in predestination)...not John Gill. And I can also give you the words of other Fathers who believed in predestination.

You lose. And so does the notion that truth is determined, in this case, by a unanimity among the Early Church Fathers...SINCE THERE WAS NONE.

The end.

Thank you for the research you put into your posts.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

1Co 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


All Scripture from the NASB.
 
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DeaconDean

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Returning to the Biblical doctrine that God calls all men to Him, but that they can reject that call:

You know, I seem to remember reading somewhere in the scriptures:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

If God is the reason you come to Him, and if God is the one who causes you to approach Him, that kinda takes "self" out of the question.

If God is the one who calls you, and God is the one who cause you to approach Him, then they cannot reject Him.

Things that make you go "hum..."

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Vince53

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Psalm 65 is a Psalm for persecuted saints that deals with getting prayers answered. Despite this persecution, a person whom God chooses and brings into His presence is blessed.

There is nothing, anywhere in this Psalm, that teaches that God forces some men to be saved and forces other men to be lost.
 
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TimRout

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Psalm 65 is a Psalm for persecuted saints that deals with getting prayers answered. Despite this persecution, a person whom God chooses and brings into His presence is blessed.

There is nothing, anywhere in this Psalm, that teaches that God forces some men to be saved and forces other men to be lost.
Oh Vince...really. You crack me up! :D

Here we go again with the "forces" rhetoric. When will you abandon these ridiculous straw men of yours and start engaging the issues in a meaningful way? You do realize that such fallacious characterizations only demonstrate your radical incomprehension of the Calvinist position --- the very position you claim to be arguing against.
 
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DeaconDean

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Psalm 65 is a Psalm for persecuted saints that deals with getting prayers answered.

Please show me this in this passage of scripture:

"Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed. O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea: Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power: Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people. They also that dwell in the uttermost parts are afraid at thy tokens: thou makest the outgoings of the morning and evening to rejoice. Thou visitest the earth, and waterest it: thou greatly enrichest it with the river of God, which is full of water: thou preparest them corn, when thou hast so provided for it. Thou waterest the ridges thereof abundantly: thou settlest the furrows thereof: thou makest it soft with showers: thou blessest the springing thereof. Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness. They drop upon the pastures of the wilderness: and the little hills rejoice on every side. The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing." -Psa. 65, To the Chief Musician, A Psalm and Song of David.

There is nothing, anywhere in this Psalm, that teaches that God forces some men to be saved and forces other men to be lost.

Please show me anywhere in my post that I said God forces men/women to be saved!

My point in showing this was to point out that God has done it all, not man, God choose us, and God is the cause of us drawing near to Him. If He has done this, how can we take any credit for anything we might have supposedly done?

Face the facts, scriptures agree with me.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Vince53

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Originally Posted by Vince53
Psalm 65 is a Psalm for persecuted saints that deals with getting prayers answered.
Please show me this in this passage of scripture:

Happy to help.

O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

Would you believe it? One of God's Names is "Thou That hearest prayer." How's that for assurance that God WANTS to answer your prayers?

Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee

Despite the accusations of the wicked, God has removed the sins of the just. He even brings us into His Presence. God is against our persecutors, even when some of their accusations are true.


By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, Which stilleth the ... tumult of the people. They also that dwell in the uttermost parts are afraid at thy tokens:

It is the wicked, not the just, whom God smites in His wrath. The saints do not have to fear the claims of persecutors that God is telling them to attack us.
 
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DeaconDean

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Please show me this in this passage of scripture:

Happy to help.

O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

Would you believe it? One of God's Names is "Thou That hearest prayer." How's that for assurance that God WANTS to answer your prayers?

Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee

Despite the accusations of the wicked, God has removed the sins of the just. He even brings us into His Presence. God is against our persecutors, even when some of their accusations are true.


By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, Which stilleth the ... tumult of the people. They also that dwell in the uttermost parts are afraid at thy tokens:

It is the wicked, not the just, whom God smites in His wrath. The saints do not have to fear the claims of persecutors that God is telling them to attack us.

Again your hatred of Calvinism blinds you.

Charles Haddon Spugeon comments on Psa. 65:

SUBJECT AND DIVISION. David sings of the glory of God in his church, and in the fields of nature: here is the song both of grace and providence. It may be that he intended hereby to commemorate a remarkably plentiful harvest, or to compose a harvest hymn for all ages. It appears to have been written after a violent rebellion had been quelled, Ps 65:7, and foreign enemies had been subdued by signal victory, Ps 65:8. It is one of the most delightful hymns in any language. We shall view in Ps 65:1-4 the way of approach to God, then from Ps 65:5-8 we shall see the Lord in answer to prayer performing wonders for which he is praised, and then from Ps 65:9-13 we shall sing the special harvest song.

Source

Old Testament (The Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanach):


EL:
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God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT. See the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Elohim.

ELOHIM:
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God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs); Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, 32 times in Gen. 1. God as Creator, Preserver, Transcendent, Mighty and Strong. Eccl., Dan. Jonah use Elohim almost exclusively. See Gen. 17:7, 6:18, 9:15, 50:24; I Kings 8:23; Jer. 31:33; Isa. 40:1.

EL SHADDAI:
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God Almighty or "God All Sufficient." 48 times in the OT, 31 times in Job. First used in Gen. 17:1, 2. (Gen. 31:29, 49:24, 25; Prov. 3:27; Micah 2:1; Isa. 60:15, 16, 66:10-13; Ruth 1:20, 21) In Rev. 16:7, "Lord God the Almighty." The Septuagint uses Greek "ikanos" meaning "all-sufficient" or "self-sufficient." The idols of the heathen are called "sheddim."

ADONAI:
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Lord in our English Bibles (Capital letter 'L ', lower case, 'ord') (Adonai is plural, the sing. is "adon"). "Master'' or "Lord" 300 times in the OT always plural when referring to God, when sing. the reference is to a human lord. Used 215 times to refer to men. First use of Adonai, Gen. 15:2. (Ex. 4:10; Judges 6:15; 2 Sam. 7:18-20; Ps. 8, 114:7, 135:5, 141:8, 109:21-28). Heavy use in Isaiah (Adonai Jehovah). 200 times by Ezekiel. Ten times in Dan. 9.




JEHOVAH:
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LORDin our English Bibles (all capitals). Yahweh is the covenant name of God. Occurs 6823 times in the OT First use Gen. 2:4 (Jehovah Elohim). From the verb "to be", havah, similar to chavah (to live), "The Self-Existent One," "I AM WHO I AM" or 'I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3. The name of God, too sacred to be uttered, abbreviated ( . . . . ) or written "YHWH" without vowel points. The tetragrammaton. Josh., Judges, Sam., and Kings use Jehovah almost exclusively. The love of God is conditioned upon His moral and spiritual attributes. (Dan. 9:14; Ps. 11:7; Lev. 19:2; Hab. 1:12). Note Deut. 6:4, 5 known to Jews as the Sh'ma uses both Jehovah and Elohim to indicate one God with a plurality of persons.

JEHOVAH-JIREH:
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"The Lord will Provide." Gen. 22:14. From "jireh" ("to see" or "to provide," or to "foresee" as a prophet.) God always provides, adequate when the times come.

JEHOVAH-ROPHE:
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"The Lord Who Heals" Ex. 15:22-26. From "rophe" ("to heal"); implies spiritual, emotional as well as physical healing. (Jer. 30:17, 3:22; Isa. 61:1) God heals body, soul and spirit; all levels of man's being.

JEHOVAH-NISSI:
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"The Lord Our Banner." Ex. 17:15. God on the battlefield, from word which means "to glisten," "to lift up," See Psalm 4:6.

JEHOVAH-M'KADDESH:
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"The Lord Who Sanctifies" Lev. 20:8. "To make whole, set apart for holiness."

JEHOVAH-SHALOM:
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"The Lord Our Peace" Judges 6:24. "Shalom" translated "peace" 170 times means "whole," "finished," "fulfilled," "perfected." Related to "well," welfare." Deut. 27:6; Dan. 5:26; I Kings 9:25 8:61; Gen. 15:16; Ex. 21:34, 22:5, 6; Lev. 7:11-21. Shalom means that kind of peace that results from being a whole person in right relationship to God and to one's fellow man.

SHEPHERD:
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Psa. 23, 79:13, 95:7, 80:1, 100:3; Gen. 49:24; Isa. 40:11.

JUDGE:
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Psa. 7:8, 96:13.

JEHOVAH ELOHIM:
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"LORD God" Gen. 2:4; Judges 5:3; Isa. 17:6; Zeph. 2:9; Psa. 59:5, etc.

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU
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"The Lord Our Righteousness" Jer. 23:5, 6, 33:16. From "tsidek" (straight, stiff, balanced - as on scales - full weight, justice, right, righteous, declared innocent.) God our Righteousness.

JEHOVAH-ROHI:
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"The Lord Our Shepherd" Psa. 23, from "ro'eh" (to pasture).

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH:
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"The Lord is There" (Ezek. 48:35).

JEHOVAH-SABAOTH:
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"The Lord of Hosts" The commander of the angelic host and the armies of God. Isa. 1:24; Psa. 46:7, 11; 2 Kings 3:9-12; Jer. 11:20 (NT: Rom. 9:29; James 5:4, Rev. 19: 11-16).

EL ELYON:
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'Most High" (from "to go up") Deut. 26:19, 32:8; Psa. 18:13; Gen. 14:18; Nu. 24:16; Psa. 78:35, 7:17, 18:13, 97:9, 56:2, 78:56, 18:13; Dan. 7:25, 27; Isa. 14:14.

ABHIR:
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'Mighty One', ("to be strong") Gen. 49:24; Deut. 10:17; Psa. 132:2, 5; Isa. 1:24, 49:26, 60:1.

BRANCH:
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(tsemach), The Branch: Zech. 3:8, 6:12; Isa. 4:2; Jer. 23:5, 33:15.


KADOSH:
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"Holy One" Psa. 71:22; Isa. 40:25, 43:3, 48:17. Isaiah uses the expression "the Holy One of Israel" 29 times.

SHAPHAT:
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"Judge" Gen. 18:25

EL ROI:
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"God of Seeing" Hagar in Gen. 16:13. The God Who opens our eyes.

KANNA:
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"Jealous" (zealous). Ex. 20:5, 34:14; Deut. 5:9; Isa. 9:7; Zech. 1:14, 8:2.

PALET:
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"Deliverer" Psa. 18:2.

YESHUA:
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</B>(Yeshua) "Savior" ("he will save"). Isa. 43:3. Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Joshua." The latter is a contraction of Je-Hoshua. ("Christ", the anointed one is equivalent to the Hebrew Maschiah, or Messiah). [See Wikipedia article].

GAOL:
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"Redeemer" (to buy back by paying a price). Job 19:25; For example, the antitype corresponding to Boaz the Kinsman-Redeemer in the Book of Ruth.

MAGEN:
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"Shield" Psa. 3:3, 18:30.

STONE:
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Gen. 49:24

EYALUTH:
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"Strength" Psa. 22:19.

TSADDIQ:
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"Righteous One" Psa. 7:9.

EL-OLAM:
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"Everlasting God" (God of everlasting time) Gen. 21:33; Psa. 90:1-3, 93:2; Isa. 26:4.

EL-BERITH:
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"God of the Covenant" Used of Baal in Judges 9:46. Probably used originally to refer to the God of israel.

EL-GIBHOR:
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Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)

ZUR:
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"God our Rock" Deut. 32:18; Isa. 30:29.

Malachi calls Messiah "The Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2).

Isaiah calls Messiah "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibhor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6).

'Attiq Yomin (Aramaic): "Ancient of Days," Dan. 7:9, 13, 22.

MELEKH:
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"King" Psa. 5:2, 29:10, 44:4, 47:6-8, 48:2, 68:24, 74:12, 95:3, 97:1, 99:4, 146:10; Isa. 5:1, 5, 41:21, 43:15, 44:6; 52:7, 52:10.

"The Angel of the Lord: " Gen. 16:7ff, 21:17, 22:11, 15ff, 18:1-19:1, 24:7, 40, 31:11-13, 32:24-30; Ex. 3:6, 13:21, Ezek. 1:10-13. Seen in the theophanies, or pre-incarnate appearances of the Son of God in the OT (See I Cor. 10:3 NT).

FATHER:
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2 Sam. 7:14-15; Psa. 68:5; Isa. 63:16, 64:8; Mal. 1:6.

THE FIRST AND LAST: Isa. 44:6, 48:12.

IMMANUEL, or EMMANUEL, or IMANUEL: "God with us." Isaiah 7:14, 8:8. Quoted in Matthew 1:23.

Source

Hum...I don't see:

One of God's Names is "Thou That hearest prayer."

John Gill comments on 65:4 saying:

Ver. 4. Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest[SIZE=+1],.... In eternity; both to grace and glory; for such have true faith in Christ given them, called the faith of God's elect, and shall never perish: they are effectually called by the grace of God, and are justified by the righteousness of Christ, and shall be glorified; or in time, for there is a choice in time, as the fruit, effect, and evidence of the eternal choice, and is no other than effectual calling; see Joh 15:19[SIZE=+1] 1Co 1:26; and happy are those who are both chosen and called; both election and the effectual calling are to grace and glory, and spring from the good will and pleasure of God; and the Targum in the king of Spain's Bible is,

"blessed is the man in whom thou art well pleased;''

and causest to approach [unto thee]
[SIZE=+1]; the same Targum supplies,

"unto the fear of thee;''

or unto thy fear and worship. The persons whom God has chosen for himself are, in their state of nature, at a distance from him by reason of sin; and through the blood and sacrifice of Christ, by which atonement is made, they are brought nigh to him; and in the faith of Christ the Mediator, their hearts are engaged to approach unto God, and come with boldness to his throne, and ask grace and mercy of him; and through the grace of Christ they have nearness to him, and communion with him, Eph 2:18;
[/SIZE]
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[/SIZE]

Source

Sorry, but it just can't be the way you want it to be.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Face the facts, scriptures agree with me.

No, the Scriptures very clearly manifest, as Vince53 has posted, the errors of Calvinism.

May God bless each of you with a meaningful and joyful Thanksgiving Day as we ponder in our hearts how very much God loves each and everyone of us.
 
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DeaconDean

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No, the Scriptures very clearly manifest, as Vince53 has posted, the errors of Calvinism.

May God bless each of you with a meaningful and joyful Thanksgiving Day as we ponder in our hearts how very much God loves each and everyone of us.

PG, I was waiting on you to jump on what I said.

Let me ask you a question.

In an earlier post, speaking on "Sola Scriptura" you said, and I quote:

It would be much more accurate to say that &#8220;Some Baptists hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and others do not.&#8221; Certainly in the academic world, few Baptists argue for that doctrine. Indeed, the doctrine is self-contradictory because the doctrine is not found anywhere in the Bible,

From this post, it can be gleened that you are not a proponet of "Sola Scriptura".

Yet one of the things Fundamentalists hold to is just this very thing.

A Fundamentalist Christian is a born again believer in Lord Jesus Christ who:

  1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;
  2. Believes whatever the Bible says is so;
  3. Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";
  4. Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
    a. The doctrine of the Trinity
    b. The incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, ascension into Heaven, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
    c. The new birth through regeneration of the Holy Spirit
    d. The resurrection of saints to life eternal
    e. The resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death
    f. The fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ;
  5. Practices fidelity to that faith, and endeavors to preach it to every creature;
  6. Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth; and
  7. Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.
  8. Therefore, Fundamentalism is a militant orthodoxy with a soulwinning zeal. While Fundamentalists may differ on certain interpretations of Scripture, we join in unity of heart and common purpose for the defense of the Faith and the preaching of the Gospel, without compromise or division.

Source

There is no way you can be considered a "Fundamentalist."

So why are you here debating?

And let me remind you, the OP asked:

So are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?

I notice here the OP did not ask for the merits of Calvinism or Arminianism, neither did the OP ask the flaws of either one.

In light of the OP's question, any answer other than "I am a Calvinist" or "I am an Arminian" is "Off-Topic".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TimRout

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TimRout said:
When will you ...start engaging the issues in a meaningful way?
I'd rather keep quoting Scriptures that show the errors of Calvinism.
Now let me see if I get this straight. This:
Vince53 said:
There is nothing, anywhere in this Psalm, that teaches that God forces some men to be saved and forces other men to be lost.
...is a Scriptural citation?

I'm sorry Vince, but your claim is patently false. You routinely offer commentary on the Scriptures, and that commentary is often problematic. Here are a few more examples of your extracanonical input:
Vince53 said:
We have seen that God loves the world, that His call to all men to be saved is genuine, and that He gives grace and repentance to all men. We have also seen that God does not predestine anyone to Hell, nor does He force anyone to sin.
Vince53 said:
My friend Jessica01 pointed out that those who are with Jesus at His Second Coming are "called," and she is correct. Over the centuries, many saints have been excommunicated, cursed, expelled, etc., but they will still be with Jesus when He returns.

Other Scriptures show that all men are called to Christ, and that the call is genuine, but most reject that call.
Vince53 said:
Returning to the Biblical doctrine that God calls all men to Him, but that they can reject that call:

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Now, is this a hypocritical command, designed so that men cannot possibly answer, or is it a sincere command?

Romans 2:4 tells us "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" God not only commands all men everywhere to repent, but He bestows His love on them in order to lead them to repentance.
You offer a great deal more than mere Scripture quotes, Vince. We don't have a problem with the Bible verses; it's your commentary we challenge.
 
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Vince53

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Deacon Dean, I said that Psalm 65 deals with persecuted saints getting their prayers answered. Then you argue by quoting Charles Spurgeon, whom you quote as saying: ,and foreign enemies had been subdued by signal victory, Ps 65:8. then from Ps 65:5-8 we shall see the Lord in answer to prayer performing wonders for which he is praised,


You're growing, Dean. You're using Charles Spurgeon as a spiritual authority, rather than St. Augustine. Using the Bible would be even better.
 
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Vince53

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"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee"

God chooses and causes to approach Him....that does not go against Calvinism.

Good to hear from you, Jessica. You are correct in what you say. This verse teaches that God causes His saints to approach Him. He works in their lives after they accept Christ, to bring them closer to Him.

Despite sin in our lives, He does not reject us, choosing rather to bring us closer to Him.
 
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