Arminian Apologists

[Jon_]

Has anyone ever visited General Apologetics and seen Arminians try to prosletyze? It's sad. They try to force this love requires free will lie and not even the unbelievers buy it! That's just sad when atheists, agnostics, and otherwise know more about determination than born-again believers. Shoot, most unbelievers will readily admit that we do not have "free will," that it is only an illusion of our human perception.

Moreover, you ought to see them get slaughtered when posed with questions like, "I want to believe in God, but I can't. Why not?" Any answer that follows that does not fit the form "it's not your choice" is simply not true. There are two different Gospels in the church today, that much is for sure.

I just realized that this post seems pretty polemic, but I should clarify that I am focused on doctrinal errors and not the well-natured spirit of those people trying to spread the good news.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

When someone says they want to believe but can't, I think it's a good time to ask them why they don't think they can. Don't take surface, meaningless arguments, but dig into the heart of the matter. God puts a desire for His truth in some, and these could very well be the "yellow stripes" that Spurgeon was looking for.

 

[JJB]

What puzzles me is why people who believe the Gospel says all will be saved, proselytize? What's the point of Christ's death and resurrection, if that is true? I really don't see how they can come to this understanding from reading the Bible. I also wonder why they don't attend an EO church then....

I've spent a lot of time in GA, which is where I became aware of all these differing beliefs! I was shocked! Guess I travel in circles that are too small -- or we never discuss these things.

It sure has made me take another look at my Presbyterian roots again, and strengthen my faith.

 

[Jon_]

Ack, I forgot I even started this thread.

I think the biggest thing for me lies in Jesus's sermon in the latter half of John 6. He tells them that unless the Father has drawn them (and he tells them plainly that He has not), they will not believe in Jesus. Let's look at some of these verses.

(John 6:26 KJV) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

(John 6:30 KJV) They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

(John 6:35-36 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

(John 6:44 KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:64-65 KJV) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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Four chapters later we see a similar passage:

(John 10:24-28 KJV) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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I suppose where I have trouble is determining when to ". . . shake the dust from [my] feet . . ." (Matt. 10:14, et al.). It is certainly painfully clear to us Calvinists that those who do not believe are appointed unto disbelief. Where then, should be the line that we do not cross? At what point do we stop testifying?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[cygnusx1]

John 6 > John 10 > and John 17 are like Romans 3 , 8 and 9 in terms of out and out Sovereign Grace Truth ...... without those six chapters there would be far less clarity .

 

[JJB]

It is certainly painfully clear to us Calvinists that those who do not believe are appointed unto disbelief. Where then, should be the line that we do not cross? At what point do we stop testifying?

Can time of belief play a role in a person's salvation? I keep testifying in the hopes that the time of belief will come.........eventually.

 

[Jon_]

Can time of belief play a role in a person's salvation? I keep testifying in the hopes that the time of belief will come.........eventually.

I should have narrowed that to one specific instance. That is, at what point during a conversation is it best to acknowledge that now is not the appointed time? For instance, you are talking to your skeptic friend about God and he goes, "Well, I just can't believe it. What am I supposed to do if I can't believe it?" I'd say that's a pretty good place to just let it drop.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[AudioArtist]

Sorry, just a question.

If people don't have any free-will, and are merely being controlled by God for His glory as you are implying, then why does He demand certain things in the Bible and then punish people when they are not fulfilled (particularly in the old testament?) Free-will is entirely neccessary for God's justice to make any sense. Otherwise it's a case of God making somebody do something evil, and then punishing them for it! And what of the great evils of times gone past....was God controlling Hitler? Was He controlling all those murderors and rapists you hear of in the news? Because if we "have no free will", then we are merely puppets in a big play, with plenty of people predestined for a horrendous eternity in Hell.

Sorry, I am merely confused as to what you believe and are saying. Thanks.

 

[Beoga]

Sorry, just a question.

If people don't have any free-will, and are merely being controlled by God for His glory as you are implying, then why does He demand certain things in the Bible and then punish people when they are not fulfilled (particularly in the old testament?) Free-will is entirely neccessary for God's justice to make any sense. Otherwise it's a case of God making somebody do something evil, and then punishing them for it! And what of the great evils of times gone past....was God controlling Hitler? Was He controlling all those murderors and rapists you hear of in the news? Because if we "have no free will", then we are merely puppets in a big play, with plenty of people predestined for a horrendous eternity in Hell.

Sorry, I am merely confused as to what you believe and are saying. Thanks.

What would be your definition of free will?

 

[AudioArtist]

What would be your definition of free will?

I couldn't define it, but I know I live it every day. I constantly make choices, and sometimes these are a battle between what God wants and what the evil desires of the flesh want. I do not believe God makes all my decisions for me, because that would condradict this: James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;


I believe it is my responsibility to do good rather then evil, through the power of the Holy Spirit. If nothing was up to us, then why does God even bother asking for us to live a life of goodness?

 

[BBAS 64]

I couldn't define it, but I know I live it every day. I constantly make choices, and sometimes these are a battle between what God wants and what the evil desires of the flesh want. I do not believe God makes all my decisions for me, because that would condradict this: James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;


I believe it is my responsibility to do good rather then evil, through the power of the Holy Spirit. If nothing was up to us, then why does God even bother asking for us to live a life of goodness?

Good Day, AudioArtist

Websters defines:

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

So why do you choose the thimgs that you chose, are they allways done "freely" (with out external circumstances)?

Ie, you are thristy you desire a coke based on your desire you enter a store and find that there is no coke, so you chose a 7-up was that choice of 7-up "free"?

If you are responsible to do good and the reason you do good works is all up to you and what you define as good, explain:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[AudioArtist]

Thank you for your post BBAS.

I did say I would do good works "through the power of the Holy Spirit". While our will is never completely free (because, like you said, there are external factors that limit our will) I still hold that we have some control over our will in that we choose how to react to those external factors. Satan may tempt me to sleep with a girl; I choose to follow God. I hear both "voices" (not audibly of course!) and decide upon which to follow-as God changes me, choosing to do the right thing will happen more and more automatically (that is the transformation of the mind.)

So I believe there is our will, which is free to an extent but limited by external circumstances, God, and Satan. But we still have a degree of control and are fully responsible for our sins, and also have a responsiblity to follow God's spirit rather then reject it's leadings. I mean, even here, I made a choice: I felt pretty lazy, but I chose to post this message. Unless of course, God made me do it?

 

[Jon_]

Thank you for your post BBAS.

I did say I would do good works "through the power of the Holy Spirit". While our will is never completely free (because, like you said, there are external factors that limit our will) I still hold that we have some control over our will in that we choose how to react to those external factors. Satan may tempt me to sleep with a girl; I choose to follow God. I hear both "voices" (not audibly of course!) and decide upon which to follow-as God changes me, choosing to do the right thing will happen more and more automatically (that is the transformation of the mind.)

So I believe there is our will, which is free to an extent but limited by external circumstances, God, and Satan. But we still have a degree of control and are fully responsible for our sins, and also have a responsiblity to follow God's spirit rather then reject it's leadings. I mean, even here, I made a choice: I felt pretty lazy, but I chose to post this message. Unless of course, God made me do it?

Well, this is not the forum for debate, so I won't counter anything you have said except to say that none of our choices are made apart from God's sovereign will. Every choice we make must first be ordained by God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[AudioArtist]

Well, this is not the forum for debate, so I won't counter anything you have said except to say that none of our choices are made apart from God's sovereign will. Every choice we make must first be ordained by God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Well, I won't debate. Thanks for clearing up the Calvinist position-I don't think this denomination is for me!

 

[JJB]

For instance, you are talking to your skeptic friend about God and he goes, "Well, I just can't believe it. What am I supposed to do if I can't believe it?" I'd say that's a pretty good place to just let it drop.

If a conversation gets to this point, I suggest they pray, and state that there's nothing I can do to help them. Then I drop it, until it comes up again, which is usually inevitable. In the meantime, I continue to pray for God's will for my friend.

 

[A. believer]

What puzzles me is why people who believe the Gospel says all will be saved, proselytize? What's the point of Christ's death and resurrection, if that is true? I really don't see how they can come to this understanding from reading the Bible. I also wonder why they don't attend an EO church then....

I'm just curious as to why you'd expect universalists to attend an Eastern Orthodox church? Since when is Eastern Orthodoxy universalist?

 

[A. believer]

I suppose where I have trouble is determining when to ". . . shake the dust from [my] feet . . ." (Matt. 10:14, et al.). It is certainly painfully clear to us Calvinists that those who do not believe are appointed unto disbelief. Where then, should be the line that we do not cross? At what point do we stop testifying?

I don't have an answer to your question, but I do know that we can only know that one is appointed unto disbelief if that one goes to the grave in unbelief. The way I apostasized and argued against Christianity at one time, one could certainly have concluded that I was appointed unto unbelief. Calvin was praying for Michael Servetus's repentance right up to Servetus's execution.

 

[A. believer]

I should have narrowed that to one specific instance. That is, at what point during a conversation is it best to acknowledge that now is not the appointed time? For instance, you are talking to your skeptic friend about God and he goes, "Well, I just can't believe it. What am I supposed to do if I can't believe it?" I'd say that's a pretty good place to just let it drop.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Are you a presuppositionalist?

 

[A. believer]

Well, I won't debate. Thanks for clearing up the Calvinist position-I don't think this denomination is for me!

Calvinism is not a denomination.

 

[Jon_]

Are you a presuppositionalist?

(Rom. 10:17 KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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Yes, I am.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon