Arians

[Dave-W]

Are you reading the NT without the bias of the trinity?

"Trinity" is NOT an exclusively NT doctrine.

Read Daniel 7. Read Deut 4.6. Read Psalm 51.11.

 

[Dave-W]

I was curious how church history would have been without the Nicaea council.

And I have always been curious how different the first Nicean Council would have been if we Messianic Jews had been in attendance and been given a voice in the outcome.

 

[Randy777]

"Trinity" is NOT an exclusively NT doctrine.

Read Daniel 7. Read Deut 4.6. Read Psalm 51.11.

There is a difference between having all the fullness of God dwelling in Jesus and him actually being that fullness like the Father. The end result is that Jesus is all that the Father is. The wisdom and power of God. Jesus is Gods firstborn and He received from the Father the one He states is greater than Him and is His GOD and the One true God. Jesus is the head of the body of Christ.
The firstborn of all creation. In him all the fullness was pleased to dwell.
Has His own spirit. "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels bow to him." Hebrews 1:6

The Son who was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body that was prepared for Him.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; Hebrews 10:5

Neither the NT or OT paint the Spirit of God as a separate distinct person from the Father.
The Fathers alone calls that Spirit His Spirit. The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth.
One God, One Lord, One Spirit -with the Father and His Son bridged as One via the Spirit.
Jesus prays to the Father=>I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one--John 17:22 Again Father in Son and Jesus in us via the Spirit that was sent in His name. Just as the Spirit of God represents the presence of the Father in Jesus it represents the presence of Christ Jesus in a believer as it was sent in His name.

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

If Jesus always was and alway was God and the HS is not the Fathers own Spirit meaning the Father also has a Spirit then you have not one but three Gods. Only the one true Gods very own Spirit in holding to one God can be divine.

What you should see in the NT is that it is the Father who glorifies Jesus and in Jesus the Father is glorified.

Randy

 

[Dave-W]

What you should see in the NT is that it is the Father who glorifies Jesus and in Jesus the Father is glorified.

I was not talking about the NT.

 

[Randy777]

And I have always been curious how different the first Nicean Council would have been if we Messianic Jews had been in attendance and been given a voice in the outcome.

If Jesus had been there it would have a different outcome in the understanding of the relationship between Him and His God. The only reason its stood so long is that those who can answer such questions , "can anyone explain the trinity", were driven out when their answers weren't liked.

The Apostles who were Jews in the NT worshipped Jesus as the Son of God.

He says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

And we know such a gathering will be from then ends of the heavens on the last day by Jesus as flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal Kingdom that can never be destroyed. And Jesus has other children as well.

Objections against the Lords anointed are in vain.
Why do the nations conspirea
and the peoples plot in vain?
2The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
3“Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”
4The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6“I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.”
7I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9You will break them with a rod of ironb ;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”


The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Jesus=>Matt 10:20
....for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I am a disciple of Jesus not Arius. So ask me what about my understanding rather than reading about Arius.

Randy, I didn't tell you to read about Arius. But your understanding about Jesus not being God is in keeping with the Arian heresy. This heresy stated that Jesus was not a divine person, but only a human.
Can you plainly say that this is what you believe? If you can it means you are NOT Christian. Christians believe Jesus is God.

There is only one true God. The Father. Hence there is only one divine Spirit. The Spirit of the sovereign Lord, or Spirit of the Father. I do not view the Spirit of God as a separate distinct person from the "Fathers"
Jesus is before all things except the Father His God.. He is Gods firstborn. God would have, with such reasoning from, formed Jesus's spirit, (not divine) at some point in history before the world began. In addition to Jesus being firstborn it was noted that the fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. Hence Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God not because He always was but because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. It was also noted what God created, (The Father from whom all things come), He created through Jesus, (through whom all things come). It was noted the Father made Jesus both Lord and anointed Jesus of nazareth as His Christ by His Spirit descending and remaining upon Jesus.The Spirit without limit. Its clear to me the Jesus who was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the "body" God prepared for Him.

You're making Jesus to be the annointed one, the Messiah, the Messenger of God, but Jesus IS GOD. There is only one divine spirit and Jesus is part of that spirit. I quoted some early church theologians to show that they also considered Jesus to be God.

Do you suppose Arius knew more than they did?
Do you suppose we today know more than they did?

Two of the earliest Church Fathers, Polycarp and Ignatius taught the deity of Christ. The early Church father, Irenaeus (circa A. D. 120-190) wrote that Polycarp was “instructed” and “appointed” by the apostles, “conversed with many who had seen Christ,” “having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles,”(2) “the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord. And as he remembered their words, and what he heard from them concerning the Lord, and concerning his miracles and his teaching, having received them from eyewitnesses of the ‘Word of life,'”(3) So his view of Jesus is very important. In The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, he mentions “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “our Lord and God Jesus Christ.”(4)

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.

Thus, Polycarp agrees with the teachings of the apostles that Jesus is God.(5)

Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch at the same time Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna. He wrote seven letters to the Churches while en route to his execution in Rome around the year A. D. 110. In Ignatius’ letter to the Ephesians 18:2 he states:

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan . . .

In 19:3 he states:

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life . . .

Jesus is the word of the Father. Hebrews 1:1 - God spoke to us by or through His Son
John 12:49 one of several statements from Jesus on whose words He spoke
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The word of life
1 John 1:1-2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of lifeThe life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Oneness as Jesus taught _ Jesus is clearly speaking of the Fathers promise the gift of God sent in His name hence "Christ in us" - I have received that gift. That Spirit has testified to my Spirit I am a child of God and belong to Jesus and assurance of my salvation and that he will raise me up on the last day. A bodily resurrection
John 17
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

You can always ask Jesus is He Gods firstborn.
To this question, "Is Jesus God?"
I state:
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is
No, He has always been the Son.

Your own verses which you have posted attest to the divinity of Jesus.
Again, Jesus is God's firstborn in the sense that Jesus will have many brothers ---those that believe in His name. But Jesus was always with God because He IS GOD.

If Jesus is just a man and not God, and the sin of Adam was so great that it required a divine solution, Jesus who is divine, then what would make one be saved if he only believed in a man?

What about the first commandment?
Are you breaking the first commandment? Worshipping a man and not God?

 

[Percivale]

Does does anyone think the trinity might make more sense if viewed from a Hindu or New Age perspective? Think of how they believe Krishna was an avatar or incarnation of Vishnu, is that similar to how Jesus is the son of God?

 

[Randy777]

Randy, I didn't tell you to read about Arius. But your understanding about Jesus not being God is in keeping with the Arian heresy. This heresy stated that Jesus was not a divine person, but only a human.
Can you plainly say that this is what you believe? If you can it means you are NOT Christian. Christians believe Jesus is God.


You're making Jesus to be the annointed one, the Messiah, the Messenger of God, but Jesus IS GOD. There is only one divine spirit and Jesus is part of that spirit. I quoted some early church theologians to show that they also considered Jesus to be God.

Do you suppose Arius knew more than they did?
Do you suppose we today know more than they did?

Two of the earliest Church Fathers, Polycarp and Ignatius taught the deity of Christ. The early Church father, Irenaeus (circa A. D. 120-190) wrote that Polycarp was “instructed” and “appointed” by the apostles, “conversed with many who had seen Christ,” “having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles,”(2) “the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord. And as he remembered their words, and what he heard from them concerning the Lord, and concerning his miracles and his teaching, having received them from eyewitnesses of the ‘Word of life,'”(3) So his view of Jesus is very important. In The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, he mentions “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “our Lord and God Jesus Christ.”(4)

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.

Thus, Polycarp agrees with the teachings of the apostles that Jesus is God.(5)

Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch at the same time Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna. He wrote seven letters to the Churches while en route to his execution in Rome around the year A. D. 110. In Ignatius’ letter to the Ephesians 18:2 he states:

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan . . .

In 19:3 he states:

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life . . .





Your own verses which you have posted attest to the divinity of Jesus.
Again, Jesus is God's firstborn in the sense that Jesus will have many brothers ---those that believe in His name. But Jesus was always with God because He IS GOD.

If Jesus is just a man and not God, and the sin of Adam was so great that it required a divine solution, Jesus who is divine, then what would make one be saved if he only believed in a man?

What about the first commandment?
Are you breaking the first commandment? Worshipping a man and not God?

You read firstborn with the bias of the trinity. I don't. AS I have stated Jesus is the wisdom and power of God not on His own but because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus is not that fullness. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. That is the Fathers will to believe in the One He sent. Jesus is my Lord who my life depends on as God ordained by His will. It was the Father who sent Jesus and spoke through Jesus and who made the same Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jesus was found worthy of honor and power and glory forever. Those who love the Son are loved by the Father. I have no fear from the Father in honoring and worshipping the Son. My understanding of the relationship between Father and Son is different then yours.
Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. Jesus stated He was the Son. Jesus is not divine in Himself. It the Fathers fullness that dwells in Him.

I have believed and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I know Him and He knows me. I smile when you threaten with the 1st commandment. I am confident of my relationship with Jesus and my salvation.

Road map to eternal life. Jesus lives forever by the Father and never dies. We live by Jesus and never die as Jesus taught.
Father=>Son=> believer
Jesus=>
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[Randy777]

You're making Jesus to be the annointed one, the Messiah, the Messenger of God, but Jesus IS GOD. There is only one divine spirit and Jesus is part of that spirit. I quoted some early church theologians to show that they also considered Jesus to be God.

I stated Jesus is all that the Father is we differ on how that is so.
I am not making Jesus anything. God, (The Father), made Jesus the mediator between God and mankind.
Its important to understand it was God in Jesus with us. That is the Father through the Son not just Jesus. Though Jesus became the Son of man. Also the Holy Spirit came down and remained upon Him,(Jesus of Nazareth), as John the baptist testified. The same, very alive, Jesus of Nazareth who appointed Paul as a Apostle who would suffer for His name.

Whatever Jesus was emptied of when He became the Son of man it wasn't the Spirit of the Father.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Its clear to me Jesus has always been the Son and that it is the Father who glorifies Him.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Does does anyone think the trinity might make more sense if viewed from a Hindu or New Age perspective? Think of how they believe Krishna was an avatar or incarnation of Vishnu, is that similar to how Jesus is the son of God?

Not really, because as far as I understand, the Hindu avatars are not fully human with a human soul.

 

[Randy777]

I feel that the exact relation of Jesus, the Spirit, and the Father is a mystery that we cannot fully understand, as God has not given us as much revelation on the topic as it would take to do so. So it's not as important as people tend to think; salvation is not based on our knowledge or intelligence level. Probably the orthodox position is the best we can do with what the Bible says about it. I was curious how church history would have been without the Nicaea council.

father and son
the father has a spirit - we know that spirit as the holy spirit.

 

[Percivale]

Not really, because as far as I understand, the Hindu avatars are not fully human with a human soul.

Yeah the avatars are probably closer to a docetist view of Jesus, which is clearly unbiblical. Perhaps their general concept of reincarnation would be more analogous--in their view a person is fully human, but at the same time an eternal spirit that has been other creatures, and everyone is ultimately a part of the divine spirit.

 

[Randy777]

For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

...these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.

Fathers promise:In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.

The eternal spirit in Jesus,(with His spirit), is the Spirit of the Father. The same spirit Jesus received from the Father and sent into the world as He baptizes with the Holy Spirit according to the will of God in these last days. The Spirit sent in His name and at Jesus's asking hence Christ in us and no one enters the kingdom of God except by Jesus.

As Jesus stated:Ref:Never dies
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I stated Jesus is all that the Father is we differ on how that is so.
I am not making Jesus anything. God, (The Father), made Jesus the mediator between God and mankind.
Its important to understand it was God in Jesus with us. That is the Father through the Son not just Jesus. Though Jesus became the Son of man. Also the Holy Spirit came down and remained upon Him,(Jesus of Nazareth), as John the baptist testified. The same, very alive, Jesus of Nazareth who appointed Paul as a Apostle who would suffer for His name.

Whatever Jesus was emptied of when He became the Son of man it wasn't the Spirit of the Father.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Its clear to me Jesus has always been the Son and that it is the Father who glorifies Him.

I'm going to stop right here, but I want to say that when we stray from the idea of the Trinity we tend to make a confusion--for instance, it's difficult for me to really understand what you're saying above.
In one moment you say the Son did not always exist and above you say He did. Maybe I've misunderstood you.
The Father is the creator
The Son is how everything was created; He is the logos of God.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, but a separate person nonetheless.

One God, three distinct persons in that one God.

Blessings

 

[Randy777]

I'm going to stop right here, but I want to say that when we stray from the idea of the Trinity we tend to make a confusion--for instance, it's difficult for me to really understand what you're saying above.
In one moment you say the Son did not always exist and above you say He did. Maybe I've misunderstood you.
The Father is the creator
The Son is how everything was created; He is the logos of God.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, but a separate person nonetheless.

One God, three distinct persons in that one God.

Blessings

Jesus was and is a being - Gods firstborn- As John wrote presence tense about risen Jesus ,"the word of life" ,That hasn't changed
The Bible in its entirety does not support the Spirit of God as a separate distinct person from the "Father" who calls that Spirit "My Spirit" repeatedly
Jesus is what He is by the grace of the Father - He received from the Father the one He repeatedly calls His God stated the Father was the only true God and our God. It is clear to all the Father is greater. Jesus stated that as well.

Jesus is the word of the Father. Thats what word of God means to me. Jesus testified He spoke all that the Father commanded Him to state and how to state it. Hebrews states God spoke to us in these last days by His Son. Jesus stated He was and is Gods Son. Jesus has always been the Son. Firstborn.--and that would be a beginning at some point in history before the world began. At some point in the future this world will become the kingdom of GOD and HIS Christ.

The Father is the greater - From whom all things come. What He created He created through His Son. Jesus was before Genesis and that which was set in place in Heaven where God dwells. He is Gods Firstborn.

As I stated Jesus's own spirit can't be divine as He calls the Father the ONE true God and that would make 2 Gods. As the HS is also Divine and the Spirit the Fathers claims as His Own.
According to your belief there are 3 Gods. Despite you inability to make 1 God out of three persons from scripture. It doesn't hold as God is Spirit. I only Hold to One God. And One Lord and One Spirit.
So if the HS isn't the Fathers Spirit then whose Spirit is He? As a person would have there own mind, will and Spirit. As Jesus the son does.

They shall all be taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. In other words the Father via HIS SPIRT is the one who glorifies Jesus. The Spirit follows the will of the mind of the Spirit and speaks what He hears.

How do you read
Matthew 10:20?

The fullness was pleased to dwell in the firstborn of all creation. That makes Jesus ALL that the Father is in regard to the "wisdom and power" of God. Jesus is the exact expression of the wisdom and power of God not because He is God but because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. He is not that fullness. The Father is that fullness - the One Jesus states is HIS and OUR God and the only TRUE God. And that He lives by the Father in the same manner we live by Jesus. As you previously stated He should Know. I follow Jesus's teachings. I think we can both agree Jesus is the head of the body of Christ.

The firm foundation you rely on is mystery as there is only ONE True God -again Jesus stated that in regard to the one He calls His God.

Is Jesus God?
I did not learn/receive this answer from man.

He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Yeah the avatars are probably closer to a docetist view of Jesus, which is clearly unbiblical. Perhaps their general concept of reincarnation would be more analogous--in their view a person is fully human, but at the same time an eternal spirit that has been other creatures, and everyone is ultimately a part of the divine spirit.

I think anytime we use analogies to describe theology, we run the risk of straying into some kind of heresy. For example, using the triple point of water, where it exists as a gas, liquid and solid, to describe the Trinity, ends up being the heresy of modalism if taken any further.