Arians

[Percivale]

Were there any other significant differences in doctrine or practice between Arians and orthodox Christians besides their views on the trinity?

 

[Randy777]

Were there any other significant differences in doctrine or practice between Arians and orthodox Christians besides their views on the trinity?

His teachings were destroyed. In order to make a case one would use scripture not Arius.

In Christianity, Arianism is a monotheistic Christological doctrine which asserts the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was begotten by God the Father at a point in time, is distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to the Father. Arian teachings were first attributed to Arius

as opposed to
The Orthodox Creed (eastern coptic church)
------------------
Truly we believe in One God, God the Father, the Almighty, creator of Heaven
and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, born of the
Father before all ages. Light of Light; True God of True God; begotten, not
made; consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us
and for our salvation descended from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy
Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified for us during
the reign of Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. He arose from the dead
on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to the heavens, and
sits at the right hand of His Father. He will come back in His glory to judge
the living and the dead; and His Kingdom shall have no end.

Truly we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Life-Giving Lord, who proceeds from
the Father; we worship and glorify Him together with the Father and the Son,
Who speaks through the prophets. We believe in one Holy, Universal and
Apostolic Church, and we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. We
await the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

 

[revanneosl]

If you really want to understand the disagreement between the Arians and the Orthodox Christians, check out Early Arianism: A View of Salvation by Gregg & Grohe. It makes it very clear that what was at stake in the argument wasn't merely a Christological question, but a soteriological one.

 

[Randy777]

If you really want to understand the disagreement between the Arians and the Orthodox Christians, check out Early Arianism: A View of Salvation by Gregg & Grohe. It makes it very clear that what was at stake in the argument wasn't merely a Christological question, but a soteriological one.

Not really
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself
A beginning but no end
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The heresy of arianism was very dangerous to the early church.

Of arianism had succeeded, and Jesus was not believed to be God, then the Trinity would have been shown to be incorrect too.

Today we're facing the same problem. There are those who do not believe Jesus is God and do not believe in the Trinity.

Arianism was at it's height in the third and fourth centuries and in the ninteenth and twentieth centuries.

 

[Randy777]

The heresy of arianism was very dangerous to the early church.

Of arianism had succeeded, and Jesus was not believed to be God, then the Trinity would have been shown to be incorrect too.

Today we're facing the same problem. There are those who do not believe Jesus is God and do not believe in the Trinity.

Arianism was at it's height in the third and fourth centuries and in the ninteenth and twentieth centuries.

Are you reading the NT without the bias of the trinity?
Can you find any quotes from Arius posted here?
If others can see part of what Arius saw in scripture without studying or learning from his works but from the NT then there must be something there.

There is a difference in Jesus having all the fullness dwell in Him then He actually being that fullness like the Father the one He calls His God and the one true God. Since Jesus has all the fullness in Him then He is the exact radiance of Gods Glory. Jesus is seen as the wisdom and power of God. But it is also noted He received that from the Father who is the one who glorifies His Son.

There is One God, One Lord and One Spirit. They act in unity and one purpose. And that purpose is the "Fathers will". The Father alone calls the HS His Spirit. Jesus has his own spirit as in, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father. Acts 2
The Fathers promise. The "gift" of God.

The Father is the one who sent Jesus, spoke through Jesus, and set Jesus above all including the angels of God. And Jesus came to do and is doing the Fathers will. Jesus was and is the word of life or word of the Father as Jesus testified He spoke all that the Father commanded Him to speak and how the Father commanded Him to speak. The very words of God. And Jesus knew the Fathers command lead to eternal life.

Jesus is before all things and He is Firstborn. Even the creeds state He was begotten before all worlds of the Father. There is no scripture that states He always was and always was God there is scripture that He is Firstborn and the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. That He lives by the Father who sent Him. That the Father is His God. That He received from the Father. That the Father is greater than Him. That the Father is the One true God. That Jesus remains in the Fathers love by always doing what pleases the Father. Clearly Jesus abides within the framework of the Fathers will. And as a Son Jesus has His own Spirit. The fullness dwells in Him with His Spirit. Oneness in that manner. He has a place on His Fathers throne.

None of all that is dangerous. No one gets to the Father except by the Son. And Jesus has received from the Father life in Himself and He has authority to give life. Jesus never dies as He lives by the living Father in Him.

So is Jesus God is yes and no.
He never dies.- today you shall be with me in paradise. He lives by the living Father in Him forever.
yes, He is all that the Father is.- all the fulness of the deity was pleased to dwell in Him.
No, He has always been the Son. -Gods firstborn

The Father alone calls the Spirit "My Spirit" Jesus does not address the HS as His own spirit.
Fathers promise=>
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Father=>Matthew quoted Isaiah about Jesus
Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. (Justice-with light comes accountability) At that time the world lived in darkness and ignorance with many false Gods and a light to the gentiles was sent into the world announcing new life and the wrath of God who was no longer willing to overlook the sin in the world. God has called all to repentance and life.

Jesus=>
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
Jesus=>
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Matthew 10:20

Father's salvation =>
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth
And the gathering will be from the ends of the heavens on the last day as flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom that can never be destroyed promised to those who love God. And those who love the Son are loved by the Father. And those who hate the Son do not love the Father who sent Him.

The head of the body of Christ=>
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

They are one in this manner it is the Spirit of the Father living in Jesus doing His work

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Father from whom all things came and for whom we live. The Son through whom all things come and through or in whom we live. And in that manner of speaking Jesus is like our God as well as our Lord for just as Jesus lives by the Father who sent Him we live by Jesus by the grace of His God and the One true God the Father. For God so loved the world He sent His Firstborn into the world.

And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels bow to him."

 

[straykat]

Arius was apparently a likeable and admired man.. and apparently very devout in his own way. And during the Council, Athanasius, while right, didn't have as many allies. And if the stories are to be believed, even St. Nicholas punched Arius! Possibly a false tale, but funny nonetheless. It upset Constantine enough that he kicked Santa Claus out of the Council of Nicaea.

But it goes to show that these matter little in light of a major heresy on the Trinity. Orthodoxy won in the end.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Are you reading the NT without the bias of the trinity?
Can you find any quotes from Arius posted here?
If others can see part of what Arius saw in scripture without studying or learning from his works but from the NT then there must be something there.

There is a difference in Jesus having all the fullness dwell in Him then He actually being that fullness like the Father the one He calls His God and the one true God. Since Jesus has all the fullness in Him then He is the exact radiance of Gods Glory. Jesus is seen as the wisdom and power of God. But it is also noted He received that from the Father who is the one who glorifies His Son.

There is One God, One Lord and One Spirit. They act in unity and one purpose. And that purpose is the "Fathers will". The Father alone calls the HS His Spirit. Jesus has his own spirit as in, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father. Acts 2
The Fathers promise. The "gift" of God.

The Father is the one who sent Jesus, spoke through Jesus, and set Jesus above all including the angels of God. And Jesus came to do and is doing the Fathers will. Jesus was and is the word of life or word of the Father as Jesus testified He spoke all that the Father commanded Him to speak and how the Father commanded Him to speak. The very words of God. And Jesus knew the Fathers command lead to eternal life.

Jesus is before all things and He is Firstborn. Even the creeds state He was begotten before all worlds of the Father. There is no scripture that states He always was and always was God there is scripture that He is Firstborn and the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. That He lives by the Father who sent Him. That the Father is His God. That He received from the Father. That the Father is greater than Him. That the Father is the One true God. That Jesus remains in the Fathers love by always doing what pleases the Father. Clearly Jesus abides within the framework of the Fathers will. And as a Son Jesus has His own Spirit. The fullness dwells in Him with His Spirit. Oneness in that manner. He has a place on His Fathers throne.

None of all that is dangerous. No one gets to the Father except by the Son. And Jesus has received from the Father life in Himself and He has authority to give life. Jesus never dies as He lives by the living Father in Him.

So is Jesus God is yes and no.
He never dies.- today you shall be with me in paradise. He lives by the living Father in Him forever.
yes, He is all that the Father is.- all the fulness of the deity was pleased to dwell in Him.
No, He has always been the Son. -Gods firstborn

The Father alone calls the Spirit "My Spirit" Jesus does not address the HS as His own spirit.
Fathers promise=>
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Father=>Matthew quoted Isaiah about Jesus
Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. (Justice-with light comes accountability) At that time the world lived in darkness and ignorance with many false Gods and a light to the gentiles was sent into the world announcing new life and the wrath of God who was no longer willing to overlook the sin in the world. God has called all to repentance and life.

Jesus=>
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
Jesus=>
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Matthew 10:20

Father's salvation =>
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth
And the gathering will be from the ends of the heavens on the last day as flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom that can never be destroyed promised to those who love God. And those who love the Son are loved by the Father. And those who hate the Son do not love the Father who sent Him.

The head of the body of Christ=>
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

They are one in this manner it is the Spirit of the Father living in Jesus doing His work

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Father from whom all things came and for whom we live. The Son through whom all things come and through or in whom we live. And in that manner of speaking Jesus is like our God as well as our Lord for just as Jesus lives by the Father who sent Him we live by Jesus by the grace of His God and the One true God the Father. For God so loved the world He sent His Firstborn into the world.

And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels bow to him."

Andy,
What does the word "begotten" mean?

 

[Randy777]

Andy,
What does the word "begotten" mean?

Past participle of begat-Jesus is Firstborn and has always been the Son.
If Jesus is not the Fathers Son then whose Son is he?
Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If he always was and always was God how then do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands i commit my spirit"?

Its clear to me the Son who was (His spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him and He was not emptied of the Father in him.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

 

[Randy777]

The Sons relationship with the Father was discussed before Arius. He did not originate that Jesus had a beginning. But I don't base my understanding in the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit on Arius's teachings but from scripture others brought up His name. Therefore there may be differences in all that Arius believed vs what I believe. I don't know what he thought of the Holy Spirit. I would state Jesus never dies as he lives by the eternal Spirit in Him and I would identify that Eternal Spirit as the Fathers Spirit. The flesh alone was put to death not Jesus's spirit.
Its clear to me Jesus, as Gods firstborn, had a beginning at some point in history before the world began but has no end. A faithful High Priest who has indestructible life in Himself-The Father.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Past participle of begat-Jesus is Firstborn and has always been the Son.
If Jesus is not the Fathers Son then whose Son is he?
Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If he always was and always was God how then do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands i commit my spirit"?

Its clear to me the Son who was (His spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him and He was not emptied of the Father in him.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Hi Randy,
When Jesus was on the cross and commended His spirit to God, it was as a human being. Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God. When Jesus took on the aspect of a human, it did not detract from His God nature, but only added to it. He was always God.

In Ezekiel 34:5 we hear that God says that His sheep were scattered for the lack of a shepher, in verse 34:11 we read that God HIMSELF will seek out His sheep and guide them.

John 10:7...Jesus says that HE is the door for the sheep. Thus fulfilling Ezekiel 34:11

Verse 10:30...Jesus says He and the Father are ONE. This means that He is equal with the Father, NOT subordinate. They are of the same essence and nature. Only GOD has the God nature.

Right after saying that He and the Father are one, in verse 10:31 the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus. Why? Because they understood He was declaring to be God and to them this was blasphemy.

So yes, God did prepare a body for Jesus.
BUT, Jesus always existed; He existed from the beginning of time.

Begotten does not mean that He was created at some point.
Begotten, biblically, means something different.

Begotten is the Enlgish word for the Greek word which was orginally used in N.T.: Monogenes

Monogenes means:


"So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is 'pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship.' This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 [where] the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's 'only begotten son' (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context." (Note: my emphasis.)

"The second definition is 'pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind.' This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s 'one and only' Son." (Note: my emphasis.)

From the perspective of John the Evangelist, both definitions (i.e., unique within a specific relationship, and unique in class or kind) applied to Jesus Christ. A Latin phrase which perhaps provides an excellent synonym for monogenes is sui generis, which means one of a kind, unique, singular.

Source: S. Michael Hourdman

Unfortunately the word begotten has caused problems because it is not understood.

Basically it means being unique.
Jesus is unique because He had an earthly mother, but God was His father, not Joseph.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Were there any other significant differences in doctrine or practice between Arians and orthodox Christians besides their views on the trinity?

Hi P
I can't really find any other major difference.
I have read that we don't know anything about Arius except for what was written ABOUT what he believed. Seems all his own writings have been destroyed. Seems like the hand of God to me!

The arian believe was the biggest heresy and danger to the early church.
(I think I already said this, sorry)

Many of the Early Church Fathers spoke about Jesus' being God from the very beginning.

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.[1]
Polycarp 69-120AD

I won't list more since this is not what you're asking.

 

[straykat]

Hi P
I can't really find any other major difference.
I have read that we don't know anything about Arius except for what was written ABOUT what he believed. Seems all his own writings have been destroyed. Seems like the hand of God to me!

Afraid not.. the bulk of his poem "The Thalia" still exists.

The Thalia of Arius

You get the basic gist why the Council had to be done. Jesus is merely the highest of creatures in his teachings:

"God Himself then, in His own nature, is ineffable by all men.
Equal or like Himself He alone has none, or one in glory.
And Ingenerate we call Him, because of Him who is generate by nature.
We praise Him as without beginning because of Him who has a beginning.
And adore Him as everlasting, because of Him who in time has come to be.
The Unbegun made the Son a beginning of things originated;
and advanced Him as a Son to Himself by adoption.
He has nothing proper to God in proper subsistence.
For He is not equal, no, nor one in essence with Him."

 

[Randy777]

Hi Randy,
When Jesus was on the cross and commended His spirit to God, it was as a human being. Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God. When Jesus took on the aspect of a human, it did not detract from His God nature, but only added to it. He was always God.

In Ezekiel 34:5 we hear that God says that His sheep were scattered for the lack of a shepher, in verse 34:11 we read that God HIMSELF will seek out His sheep and guide them.

John 10:7...Jesus says that HE is the door for the sheep. Thus fulfilling Ezekiel 34:11

Verse 10:30...Jesus says He and the Father are ONE. This means that He is equal with the Father, NOT subordinate. They are of the same essence and nature. Only GOD has the God nature.

Right after saying that He and the Father are one, in verse 10:31 the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus. Why? Because they understood He was declaring to be God and to them this was blasphemy.

So yes, God did prepare a body for Jesus.
BUT, Jesus always existed; He existed from the beginning of time.

Begotten does not mean that He was created at some point.
Begotten, biblically, means something different.

Begotten is the Enlgish word for the Greek word which was orginally used in N.T.: Monogenes

Monogenes means:


"So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is 'pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship.' This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 [where] the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's 'only begotten son' (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context." (Note: my emphasis.)

"The second definition is 'pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind.' This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s 'one and only' Son." (Note: my emphasis.)

From the perspective of John the Evangelist, both definitions (i.e., unique within a specific relationship, and unique in class or kind) applied to Jesus Christ. A Latin phrase which perhaps provides an excellent synonym for monogenes is sui generis, which means one of a kind, unique, singular.

Source: S. Michael Hourdman

Unfortunately the word begotten has caused problems because it is not understood.

Basically it means being unique.
Jesus is unique because He had an earthly mother, but God was His father, not Joseph.

I dont know how you read the NT and not see the Father is greater than His Son. Jesus directly stated so and He didn't state in was because He became the Son of Man. Even the risen Jesus in the book of Rev calls the Father His God. And it states Jesus has made us a kingdom of priests to serve His God and Father.
I do believe Jesus was before the world began not a glorified man whose beginning was the virgin birth. I would state the Son that was (His Spirit) was in the body prepared for Him. I believe Jesus is Gods firstborn as in the firstborn of all creation or when God brings the firstborn into the world he commands all His angels to bow to Jesus. Or church of the firstborn. What you should see is that the Father glorifies the Son. Jesus received from the Father. AT the sounding of the 7th trump this world will become the kingdom of God AND His Christ. So God formed Jesus's spirit, (his Son), at some point in history before the world began. If Jesus's spirit is divine then you have two Gods. As the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and hence divine. However the fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus. From the will of another. Which sets Jesus above the angels of God and makes His being the exact image of the wisdom and power of His God and our God. His Father and our Father. So in that context Jesus is ALL that the Father is "Mighty God". But He has always been the Son,(firstborn), and in that context is not God. The fullness of the deity dwells in Jesus. The Father who is that fullness in Himself. The Father who has NOT received from any other being and "if" the Father has a beginning it couldn't be by any other being. The scripture just states no God was "formed" before Him not that He always was.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Afraid not.. the bulk of his poem "The Thalia" still exists.

The Thalia of Arius

You get the basic gist why the Council had to be done. Jesus is merely the highest of creatures in his teachings:

"God Himself then, in His own nature, is ineffable by all men.
Equal or like Himself He alone has none, or one in glory.
And Ingenerate we call Him, because of Him who is generate by nature.
We praise Him as without beginning because of Him who has a beginning.
And adore Him as everlasting, because of Him who in time has come to be.
The Unbegun made the Son a beginning of things originated;
and advanced Him as a Son to Himself by adoption.
He has nothing proper to God in proper subsistence.
For He is not equal, no, nor one in essence with Him."

Thanks for the info.
I was going by this:

Arius’s most important work was “Thalia” (The Banquet, 323), a work comprising both prose and poetry, in which he defended his beliefs. The document was destroyed by the trinitarians and is no longer extant, and knowledge of most of Arius’s writings comes only from the works of his critics, who, in condemning him, revealed much information.

Source: Arius of Alexandria, Priest and Martyr

 

[Randy777]

Thanks for the info.
I was going by this:

Arius’s most important work was “Thalia” (The Banquet, 323), a work comprising both prose and poetry, in which he defended his beliefs. The document was destroyed by the trinitarians and is no longer extant, and knowledge of most of Arius’s writings comes only from the works of his critics, who, in condemning him, revealed much information.

Source: Arius of Alexandria, Priest and Martyr

I don't follow or study Arius I follow Jesus.
Randy

 

[GodsGrace101]

I dont know how you read the NT and not see the Father is greater than His Son. Jesus directly stated so and He didn't state in was because He became the Son of Man. Even the risen Jesus in the book of Rev calls the Father His God. And it states Jesus has made us a kingdom of priests to serve His God and Father.
I do believe Jesus was before the world began not a glorified man whose beginning was the virgin birth. I would state the Son that was (His Spirit) was in the body prepared for Him. I believe Jesus is Gods firstborn as in the firstborn of all creation or when God brings the firstborn into the world he commands all His angels to bow to Jesus. Or church of the firstborn. What you should see is that the Father glorifies the Son. Jesus received from the Father. AT the sounding of the 7th trump this world will become the kingdom of God AND His Christ. So God formed Jesus's spirit, (his Son), at some point in history before the world began. If Jesus's spirit is divine then you have two Gods. As the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and hence divine. However the fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus. From the will of another. Which sets Jesus above the angels of God and makes His being the exact image of the wisdom and power of His God and our God. His Father and our Father. So in that context Jesus is ALL that the Father is "Mighty God". But He has always been the Son,(firstborn), and in that context is not God. The fullness of the deity dwells in Jesus. The Father who is that fullness in Himself. The Father who has NOT received from any other being and "if" the Father has a beginning it couldn't be by any other being. The scripture just states no God was "formed" before Him not that He always was.

You say the above highlighted because you do not believe in the Trinity.
Thus, your understanding is that if we make Jesus divine, we have two Gods.

Also, the Holy Spirit is a person. Jesus said He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to be our paraclete.
John 16:7 So do we now have 3 Gods?

Jesus understood God Father more than any of us can. So why would He say that the Holy Spirit would come to us? Was Jesus a heretic?

Only God could forgive sins and Jesus forgave sins. He even proved He was able to forgive sins by allowing the crippled man to get up and walk.
Mathew 9:5
Jesus knew there would be repercussion. Was He crazy?

And how do you explain John 1:1?
The Deity of Jesus Christ

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 tells us that THE WORD became flesh, thus we know it is speaking about Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus IS GOD.

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,

In the very next sentence we read that word "begotten" again.
As already shown above it means unique...something unique happened. It cannot mean that Jesus BECAME a son because in John 1:1 John clearly states that THE WORD was GOD and since Jesus is the WORD, Jesus is God.

I believe John the apostle knew what he was teaching us.
1 John 1:1-4

 

[Randy777]

You say the above highlighted because you do not believe in the Trinity.
Thus, your understanding is that if we make Jesus divine, we have two Gods.

Also, the Holy Spirit is a person. Jesus said He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to be our paraclete.
John 16:7 So do we now have 3 Gods?

Jesus understood God Father more than any of us can. So why would He say that the Holy Spirit would come to us? Was Jesus a heretic?

Only God could forgive sins and Jesus forgave sins. He even proved He was able to forgive sins by allowing the crippled man to get up and walk.
Mathew 9:5
Jesus knew there would be repercussion. Was He crazy?

And how do you explain John 1:1?
The Deity of Jesus Christ

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 tells us that THE WORD became flesh, thus we know it is speaking about Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus IS GOD.

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,

In the very next sentence we read that word "begotten" again.
As already shown above it means unique...something unique happened. It cannot mean that Jesus BECAME a son because in John 1:1 John clearly states that THE WORD was GOD and since Jesus is the WORD, Jesus is God.

I believe John the apostle knew what he was teaching us.
1 John 1:1-4

First of all I do believe in the Father, Holy Spirit and Son we differ on the relationship.
Jesus stated He had authority to forgive sins.
Jesus received from the Father as you state Jesus should know.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Jesus calls the Father the ONLY true God- as you state He should know
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jesus lives by the Father in the same manner we live by Him-as you state He should know
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
John 1:1 is cohesive with what I believe about the Son
Jesus was with God at the beginning of creation (Genesis) The creation was made through Him and nothing was set in Heaven without Him
Jesus is ALL that the Father is
Jesus was and is the word of life or word of the Father

Jesus always does what pleases the Father and abides within the Framework of the Fathers Will
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Whose Spirit is the Holy Spirit - Jesus should know
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Fathers Promise- In the last days I will pour out my Spirit....
Father about Jesus"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.(Justice-with light comes accountability)
Jesus stated this was fulfilled in His coming=>The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoner

The Spirit Jesus sends,(the gift of God), He received from the Father (Acts 2)

In regard to that day ref acts 2 - you will have a common frame of reference to understand oneness. WE don't have a common frame of reference to understand fullness (Spirit without limit)
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Jesus-Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. - The Father speaks to us in these last day through Jesus.

The Father the one who sent Jesus, spoke through Jesus, and set Jesus above all even the angels of God and the one Jesus calls His God is greater than His firstborn. It is the Fathers will that all are to believe in the One he sent and all those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and its is the Fathers will for Jesus to raise them up on the last day- He will never drive away those who come to Him by faith

Jesus commands (wills) and the Spirit will act because He has been granted such authority by the Father. I can and have prayed to Jesus and He has answered. He knows me and nothing is hidden from Him. That bridge is via the Spirit

 

[Randy777]

You say the above highlighted because you do not believe in the Trinity.
Thus, your understanding is that if we make Jesus divine, we have two Gods.

Also, the Holy Spirit is a person. Jesus said He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to be our paraclete.
John 16:7 So do we now have 3 Gods?

Jesus understood God Father more than any of us can. So why would He say that the Holy Spirit would come to us? Was Jesus a heretic?

Only God could forgive sins and Jesus forgave sins. He even proved He was able to forgive sins by allowing the crippled man to get up and walk.
Mathew 9:5
Jesus knew there would be repercussion. Was He crazy?

And how do you explain John 1:1?
The Deity of Jesus Christ

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 tells us that THE WORD became flesh, thus we know it is speaking about Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus IS GOD.

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,

In the very next sentence we read that word "begotten" again.
As already shown above it means unique...something unique happened. It cannot mean that Jesus BECAME a son because in John 1:1 John clearly states that THE WORD was GOD and since Jesus is the WORD, Jesus is God.

I believe John the apostle knew what he was teaching us.
1 John 1:1-4

I am a disciple of Jesus not Arius. So ask me what about my understanding rather than reading about Arius.
There is only one true God. The Father. Hence there is only one divine Spirit. The Spirit of the sovereign Lord, or Spirit of the Father. I do not view the Spirit of God as a separate distinct person from the "Fathers"
Jesus is before all things except the Father His God.. He is Gods firstborn. God would have, with such reasoning from, formed Jesus's spirit, (not divine) at some point in history before the world began. In addition to Jesus being firstborn it was noted that the fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. Hence Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God not because He always was but because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. It was also noted what God created, (The Father from whom all things come), He created through Jesus, (through whom all things come). It was noted the Father made Jesus both Lord and anointed Jesus of nazareth as His Christ by His Spirit descending and remaining upon Jesus.The Spirit without limit. Its clear to me the Jesus who was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the "body" God prepared for Him.

Jesus is the word of the Father. Hebrews 1:1 - God spoke to us by or through His Son
John 12:49 one of several statements from Jesus on whose words He spoke
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The word of life
1 John 1:1-2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of lifeThe life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Oneness as Jesus taught _ Jesus is clearly speaking of the Fathers promise the gift of God sent in His name hence "Christ in us" - I have received that gift. That Spirit has testified to my Spirit I am a child of God and belong to Jesus and assurance of my salvation and that he will raise me up on the last day. A bodily resurrection
John 17
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

You can always ask Jesus is He Gods firstborn.
To this question, "Is Jesus God?"
I state:
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[Percivale]

I feel that the exact relation of Jesus, the Spirit, and the Father is a mystery that we cannot fully understand, as God has not given us as much revelation on the topic as it would take to do so. So it's not as important as people tend to think; salvation is not based on our knowledge or intelligence level. Probably the orthodox position is the best we can do with what the Bible says about it. I was curious how church history would have been without the Nicaea council.