• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Arguments for the Existence of God

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟78,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How do I know whether what I pick to believe as far as claim is just based on the lack of verifiable parameters that you set?

I understand how you can know... you are the lucky flee that got some special revelation from the dog. I understand that God gets to know and decide.

How do I know? Based on what you say... I don't know which is the just way. Yours, or a Muslim, or a Shinto follower? Let's say I need some guidance. What would differentiate false claims from the true ones?

It seems to me that we can't really tell a difference :). If we can't tell a difference... then what is the difference?
I hate to use the term, but it is a game of clues, that will either be a dead end or not. You should expect to connect with it (or not) at some point. One is true, but there are many counterfeits. Keep seeking, keep knocking, and the door will be open to you.
 
Upvote 0

devolved

Newbie
Sep 4, 2013
1,332
364
US
✟75,427.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I hate to use the term, but it is a game of clues, that will either be a dead end or not. You should expect to connect with it (or not) at some point. One is true, but there are many counterfeits. Keep seeking, keep knocking, and the door will be open to you.

Ok. I think that's where you should start with, instead of claiming some evidence for God's existence through your personal experience of being "taken outside".

Just lead with "I really have no evidence other than a bundle of parable stories, a personal claim about being "taken outside" and encouragement for you to keep seeking until you are convinced in the same thing I am which will be evidence to you when you'll find it". :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ScottA
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
that's it, we are already there
-you wanted and therefore most likely needed a reasonable explanation
-now you have it
-so why not believe in it?
-you can continue to look for a more reasonable explanation but I don't think you will find one

Lol....what?

Q-Do you want Santa Claus to exist?
A-Yes.
Q-Why?
A-Because I like getting presents...
Q-So why not just believe in Santa if there's any chance you might get presents?

Move over Aquinas...I think we've got a new standard for christian philosophers on our hands...
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
wanting to get rich is reasonable but it doesn't address your answer to why you want God to exist
-you want God to exist because it gives meaning and purpose to the life you are living
-without God, you do not have a reasonable explanation for what we are doing here

If you intended to just answer for the people you are questioning....why not just skip the questions altogether and tell them what they think?
 
  • Like
Reactions: HitchSlap
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
Now...let's not get all emotional and misspell words, and forget that you are a guest in the house of another. Your character is showing.
Where did you get the [mistaken] idea that there are 'guest' accounts for these forums?
 
Upvote 0

Mediaeval

baptizatus sum
Sep 24, 2012
857
185
✟44,873.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Your reply here doesn't answer my post....

"You certainly haven't made any such connection between the assumptions and absurdity. If you think that connection is there....let's hear it."

Are you capable of showing that connection?

My argument earlier in the thread (which concluded with post #76) was to show the connection between atheistic assumptions and the undermining of knowledge and morality (although the topic of morality was more of an afterthought). You can reflect for yourself on the absurdities and otherwise unpleasant implications that logically flow from a naturalistic, materialistic, atheistic worldview, a worldview which necessarily entails the possibility, as Nietzsche suggested, that unrecognized deception is simply the condition under which life is lived. If someone thinks I don’t know what I am talking about because I am not an atheist, that would be a prejudicial conjecture. Christians understand, perhaps better than atheists themselves, what it means to take God out of the equation. We know what we would have to lose. People, being made in God’s image, are profound mysteries to themselves and to each other, and that includes atheists. I don’t claim to understand my neighbor much less a passel of internet strangers. But atheism itself is pretty transparent. However, atheists seem reluctant to own the implications of what atheism logically entails. This is particularly evident in the moral sphere. Why not be cruel? An atheist might reply because cruelty is wrong. That is the correct answer, but materialism provides no authoritative basis for right and wrong. The brain simply secretes thoughts, opinions, and feelings the way the liver secretes bile. Or again, if an atheist asserts the right to life, that would be great, but such a moral assertion has no justifiable basis in a world of only matter and force acting according to necessity. Moral assertions cannot rise above being merely human preferences, on a level with asserting a preference for coffee over tea or wine over beer. What logically consistent atheism entails without any evasions or inconsistencies incongruously tacked on, is what Duke university philosophy professor Alexander Rosenberg says in his candid catechism:

Is there a God? No.
What is the nature of reality?
What physics says it is.
What is the purpose of the universe. There is none.
What is the meaning of life? Ditto.
Why am I here?
Just dumb luck…
Is there free will? Not a chance.
What is the difference between right and wrong, good and bad? There is no moral difference between them.
What should I be moral? Because it makes you feel better than being immoral.
Is abortion, euthanasia, suicide, paying taxes, foreign aid, or anything else you don’t like forbidden, permissible, or something obligatory? Anything goes.

(as quoted by philosopher and author Mitch Stokes, who, I think it's safe to say, is not actor Michael Cudlitz, despite the resemblance)

If a man doesn’t like the implications of his own worldview, finds them too bleak to live out consistently, and instead must borrow things that only another worldview can rationally justify, why not seek a better wisdom?
 
  • Like
Reactions: amariselle
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
(and I'm not really saying below for your sake, Dave, since you are likely aware of it)

I think we should be fair and note that on a personal level it MAY not be false that whatever he experienced is some true reality out there that MAY exist. In that sense, there should be a disclaimer put that a logical fallacy is not the same as "you are wrong". It's merely a framework of valid and MORE RELIABLE arguments that we collectively as people use to either reject or accept claims.

There are falsifiable one, like "Al Gore is our president". It's a falsifiable claim. We can actually check who the president is and his name is not Al Gore.

There are unjustifiable ones like the one in question "I've been taking to an outside reality and been revealed some secrets". On a personal level... I have no issue with this claim. But that's not how we get to believe the claim of others.

Hence, there's this constant problem and misunderstanding when it comes to providing evidence that's believable in the the framework of valid claims and argument (for communicating beliefs) in a way that we collectively recognize as a valid way to make an argument that has some chance of being taken as a rational one. If we can't tell a difference, between rational and irrational one... then there is no difference in the mind of person who receives it.

Of course, the unfortunate downside to that is that if the claim is indeed true, then we are missing out on some explanation of reality that we'd otherwise wouldn't work out on our own, BUT if by extension we believe ALL similar claims, then we'd be living in a world where everything and anything goes as believable.

But the larger question would be as to why would God choose such poor framework to reveal it's existence? There are a dozen of ways that I would find more believable. Inconclusive.... but more believable.


Totally agree, that's why I've been asking him to demonstrate what he claims to know to be true.

Without that demonstration, I have no reason to believe his claims. That doesn't necessarily mean they are false, however I have nothing to justify belief on.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
No, no...you do not have the screen. It is God who is screening us, whether we are His or not.

If he's all knowing, wouldn't he already know that? Why would he need to screen anything?

It is the written record of testimonies of the people that have had personal contact with God, known as the bible.

But we know the bible is full of errors, and none of the main claims have ever been backed up. Why would I consider this a reliable text?
 
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,787
3,884
✟274,996.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
If someone thinks I don’t know what I am talking about because I am not an atheist, that would be a prejudicial conjecture.

Quite true. I think you don't know what you're talking about because you're just so wrong...
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I hate to use the term, but it is a game of clues, that will either be a dead end or not. You should expect to connect with it (or not) at some point. One is true, but there are many counterfeits. Keep seeking, keep knocking, and the door will be open to you.

Are you ever going to give us a reason to believe what you're typing?
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I happen to be a recipient of such information (from the outside). But I have no reason to justify what is self-justified already, to as many people as have also received it. The truth, on that grand scale, is also self-evident...no contest.

The only thing lacking here...is your own knowledge of it.

The Esoteric Knowledge Gambit rears its ugly head again.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
My argument earlier in the thread (which concluded with post #76) was to show the connection between atheistic assumptions and the undermining of knowledge and morality (although the topic of morality was more of an afterthought).

There's only one "atheistic assumption" and that is that god doesn't exist. You never actually showed any such connection between this assumption and "the undermining of knowledge". You quoted some folks you thought supported your claim, but I disagree that they did....quote mining doesn't make an argument for a position. Can you make the connection or not?


You can reflect for yourself on the absurdities and otherwise unpleasant implications that logically flow from a naturalistic, materialistic, atheistic worldview, a worldview which necessarily entails the possibility, as Nietzsche suggested, that unrecognized deception is simply the condition under which life is lived.

I don't see how any of those views are necessarily connected to the idea that we might be deceived in ways that we don't recognize. Obviously, that could be the case for literally any viewpoint lol.


If someone thinks I don’t know what I am talking about because I am not an atheist, that would be a prejudicial conjecture. Christians understand, perhaps better than atheists themselves, what it means to take God out of the equation. We know what we would have to lose.

I would argue that former christians who are now atheists have a better understanding...but please continue...


People, being made in God’s image, are profound mysteries to themselves and to each other, and that includes atheists. I don’t claim to understand my neighbor much less a passel of internet strangers. But atheism itself is pretty transparent. However, atheists seem reluctant to own the implications of what atheism logically entails. This is particularly evident in the moral sphere. Why not be cruel?

Would you like to come up with a specific example and discuss it? Moral discussions that are so deliberately vague aren't very useful.



An atheist might reply because cruelty is wrong. That is the correct answer, but materialism provides no authoritative basis for right and wrong.

I can't really answer for this fictional atheist whom you're having this discussion with...but I would think it's at least possible that he doesn't look to materialism for his morals.


The brain simply secretes thoughts, opinions, and feelings the way the liver secretes bile.

Not really....no.

Or again, if an atheist asserts the right to life, that would be great, but such a moral assertion has no justifiable basis in a world of only matter and force acting according to necessity.

Why would you assume that the world only consists of force and matter acting out of necessity?

Moral assertions cannot rise above being merely human preferences, on a level with asserting a preference for coffee over tea or wine over beer.

And? You say this like it's a problem....



What logically consistent atheism entails without any evasions or inconsistencies incongruously tacked on, is what Duke university philosophy professor Alexander Rosenberg says in his candid catechism:

Is there a God? No.
What is the nature of reality?
What physics says it is.
What is the purpose of the universe. There is none.
What is the meaning of life? Ditto.
Why am I here?
Just dumb luck…
Is there free will? Not a chance.
What is the difference between right and wrong, good and bad? There is no moral difference between them.
What should I be moral? Because it makes you feel better than being immoral.
Is abortion, euthanasia, suicide, paying taxes, foreign aid, or anything else you don’t like forbidden, permissible, or something obligatory? Anything goes.

(as quoted by philosopher and author Mitch Stokes, who, I think it's safe to say, is not actor Michael Cudlitz, despite the resemblance)

Again...it's nice of you to pull quotes that agree with your views...but you don't explain them. Why do you think atheism precludes free-will? Why does atheism make someone incapable of determining right from wrong? Why can't an atheist decide what meaning his life holds?

If a man doesn’t like the implications of his own worldview, finds them too bleak to live out consistently, and instead must borrow things that only another worldview can rationally justify, why not seek a better wisdom?

You don't seem to understand what an atheist's "worldview" is. I wouldn't place so much stock in the quotes of men simply because they appeal to your personal opinions. I posed several questions above....let's just start with the first...

Why does one need to believe in god to have "free-will"?
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
What logically consistent atheism entails without any evasions or inconsistencies incongruously tacked on, is what Duke university philosophy professor Alexander Rosenberg says in his candid catechism:

I don't care what your cherry-picked Alexander Rosenberg has to say. His "catechism" isn't my worldview.

There are atheistic philosophers who argue for very different views than he, and without "borrowing" from religion in any way that would undermine the argument by making it implicitly dependent on some form of theism. Philosophy is an inventive field. You aren't the "god" of philosophy to say what philosophers can't honestly and successfully accomplish.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
My argument earlier in the thread (which concluded with post #76) was to show the connection between atheistic assumptions and the undermining of knowledge and morality (although the topic of morality was more of an afterthought). You can reflect for yourself on the absurdities and otherwise unpleasant implications that logically flow from a naturalistic, materialistic, atheistic worldview, a worldview which necessarily entails the possibility, as Nietzsche suggested, that unrecognized deception is simply the condition under which life is lived. If someone thinks I don’t know what I am talking about because I am not an atheist, that would be a prejudicial conjecture. Christians understand, perhaps better than atheists themselves, what it means to take God out of the equation. We know what we would have to lose. People, being made in God’s image, are profound mysteries to themselves and to each other, and that includes atheists. I don’t claim to understand my neighbor much less a passel of internet strangers. But atheism itself is pretty transparent. However, atheists seem reluctant to own the implications of what atheism logically entails. This is particularly evident in the moral sphere. Why not be cruel? An atheist might reply because cruelty is wrong. That is the correct answer, but materialism provides no authoritative basis for right and wrong. The brain simply secretes thoughts, opinions, and feelings the way the liver secretes bile. Or again, if an atheist asserts the right to life, that would be great, but such a moral assertion has no justifiable basis in a world of only matter and force acting according to necessity. Moral assertions cannot rise above being merely human preferences, on a level with asserting a preference for coffee over tea or wine over beer. What logically consistent atheism entails without any evasions or inconsistencies incongruously tacked on, is what Duke university philosophy professor Alexander Rosenberg says in his candid catechism:

Is there a God? No.
What is the nature of reality?
What physics says it is.
What is the purpose of the universe. There is none.
What is the meaning of life? Ditto.
Why am I here?
Just dumb luck…
Is there free will? Not a chance.
What is the difference between right and wrong, good and bad? There is no moral difference between them.
What should I be moral? Because it makes you feel better than being immoral.
Is abortion, euthanasia, suicide, paying taxes, foreign aid, or anything else you don’t like forbidden, permissible, or something obligatory? Anything goes.

(as quoted by philosopher and author Mitch Stokes, who, I think it's safe to say, is not actor Michael Cudlitz, despite the resemblance)

If a man doesn’t like the implications of his own worldview, finds them too bleak to live out consistently, and instead must borrow things that only another worldview can rationally justify, why not seek a better wisdom?
You are just recycling the same claims over and over. As such, see here.
 
Upvote 0

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟78,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If he's all knowing, wouldn't he already know that? Why would he need to screen anything?
He is all knowing...but we are not. This is Him letting us express who we are - we are demonstrating our fate.
But we know the bible is full of errors, and none of the main claims have ever been backed up. Why would I consider this a reliable text?
You say it is full of errors because you do not understand. The errors are the result of confusion which God placed on all language. But therein is also the truth, but it must be discerned spiritually. So, while it has the appearance of foolishness, it is a masterpiece of riddles.
 
Upvote 0