Arguments about God

[griggs1947]

According to the naturalist infinite regress argument, time, event and cause presuppose previous times, events and causes in line with the law of conservation of matter-energy.
As Existence is all, God cannot be transcendent to it. It just is.
Some theists recognniae all the former but find that He nevertheless sustains Existence.
The naturalist atelic argument is that as the weight of evidence shows no teleology [ no preconceived plans] but for unplainning natural selection - the anti-chance agency of Nature-to form new life forms.
There are other naturalist arguments [positive atheist ones [ against God]. In another thread is found the presumption of naturalism , the presumption of rationalism and the ignostic-Ockham.
Then there are our negative arguments in reply to natural theology.
Why do you beleive or why not? Why agnosticism? Some people just don't care one way or another!

Good will and blessings to all!
​

 

[-Vincent-]

Why do you beleive or why not? Why agnosticism? Some people just don't care one way or another!

Good will and blessings to all!
​

I believe God because I interact with God. If you have serious questions concerning God only he can answer those questions.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I believe God because I interact with God. If you have serious questions concerning God only he can answer those questions.

Question: how does one ask God a question, how does God answer, and how can one be sure that it is God who is answering (and not, say, Descartes' Demon)?

 

[-Vincent-]

Question: how does one ask God a question, how does God answer, and how can one be sure that it is God who is answering (and not, say, Descartes' Demon)?

Well, in my life time I have only asked God one question. I simply turned my mental attention to God and asked my question without saying it aloud. He spoke to my mind.

I was very young, maybe eight years old. The children of my neighborhood were gathered in our yard and began having a very heated argument about the bottomless pit. Some said that there is a bottomless pit and some argued very violently that there wasn't. I didn't get involved. Some had said that it was true because it was in the bible. They ended their argument and all went away.

So, I turned my attention to God and asked, Is there a bottomless pit? He responded, "It will become known as the black hole."

That was in the late 1950's. None of the black holes have become known as "the black hole" so I am still waiting. I did hear on the news last night that there is a star orbiting the black hole at the center of our galaxy. Maybe something will happen with that...

Otherwise, I simply make requests of God silently, from time to time. He responds with miraculous changes in the situations that I get involved in.

What people who pray don't seem to know is that they need to ask for very significant changes in order to truly know that the power and intellegence of God created the change. I have prayed and he has done great miracles, but just like everyone else I know that I could always pray bigger.

As a wiccan you must have some idea that your own intentions are effective. Try to intend something that is clearly beyond you own personal power. Or maybe you could ask him a well designed question...

 

[The Nihilist]

As it turns out, Wiccan Child, a better question may have been how you know you're not just schizophrenic. Of course, he probably wouldn't have answered that either

 

[-Vincent-]

As it turns out, Wiccan Child, a better question may have been how you know you're not just schizophrenic. Of course, he probably wouldn't have answered that either

Did you ever think that in this life, you are merely a tourist and not really sincerely involved?

 

[The Nihilist]

I haven't a clue what that means.

 

[-Vincent-]

I haven't a clue what that means.

I believe that...

 

[The Nihilist]

Fill me in, smart guy. This is a philosophy forum. We've got premises and arguments and conclusions. If all you're going to do is appeal to some secret knowledge, then go find the Gnosticism subforum.

 

[-Vincent-]

Fill me in, smart guy. This is a philosophy forum. We've got premises and arguments and conclusions. If all you're going to do is appeal to some secret knowledge, then go find the Gnosticism subforum.

It is the sick who are in need of a physician...

I thought you were are skeptic. You mean you actually allow that there are premises which are true?

 

[The Nihilist]

It is the sick who are in need of a physician...

I thought you were are skeptic. You mean you actually allow that there are premises which are true?

Yes, there are some premises I am willing to accept. To say that there are none is absurd.

 

[-Vincent-]

Yes, there are some premises I am willing to accept. To say that there are none is absurd.

Well, the only premise that the original skeptics allowed was that it is impossible for humans to have true knowledge. So, like atheism it was self contradictory. In otherwords their single premise was not true knowledge.

You're a skeptic in protest of this I suppose, kind of a protestant skeptic, I guess?

 

[The Nihilist]

I don't believe in true knowledge. I only accept premises provisionally. For example, I don't know whether or not this world is the "true" world, but I am willing to accept that this world generally seems to behave in a manner consistent with our understanding of it.

 

[-Vincent-]

I don't believe in true knowledge. I only accept premises provisionally. For example, I don't know whether or not this world is the "true" world, but I am willing to accept that this world generally seems to behave in a manner consistent with our understanding of it.

Well, thats nice. It should make you kind of humble. Do you get frustrated when people don't take you seriously, since you are agnostic about knowledge...

 

[The Nihilist]

No. But then, I don't make ridiculous claims about knowing god.

 

[Gareth]

Question: how does one ask God a question, how does God answer, and how can one be sure that it is God who is answering (and not, say, Descartes' Demon)?

The easy answer is you pray for help, guidance or direction. And yet that is not an easy thing to do. As a Wiccan/Pagan do you pray to the goddess? If you're faced with a trying situation, what do you do next? And how?

I used to dream I was falling down some pit or off a cliff. I would wake up with a start. I was told recently that those dreams are of the heart stopping and it's the body's way of telling you to BREATHE!! So sometimes we have a natural way of dealing with a situation.

Can you put faith into something you can't see? With God you have to. Just as you know on a cloudy that the sun is really up and shining, although you can't see it you still have evidence to support your understanding. So it is with those who have a belief in God. There is evidence that in everything we see and also things we can't see, the Creator is there. The only fly in the ointment is that man has done a monumental muck-up of this earth in that he is killing it, and mostly in the name of science.

How do we know a demon isn't answering instead of God? That's not so easy to pinpoint. Knowing something is one thing, but knowing it accurately is a totally different ball game. So accurate knowledge of God helps the seeker to understand what God likes, dislikes, supports or dismisses. Then our prayers can be targeted into specifics rather than generalisations. Prayer is useful for calming the body in times of stress which can be a good thing. Being stressed or wound up or easily angered does no good to the body at all. It all has to have an effect sometime and somewhere and usually does.

The answers to the majority of our questions are to be found quite easily. Where faith comes into play is will we accept that what we dismiss is actually the thing we really need?

 

[Legion.As.One]

The easy answer is you pray for help, guidance or direction. And yet that is not an easy thing to do. As a Wiccan/Pagan do you pray to the goddess? If you're faced with a trying situation, what do you do next? And how?

I used to dream I was falling down some pit or off a cliff. I would wake up with a start. I was told recently that those dreams are of the heart stopping and it's the body's way of telling you to BREATHE!! So sometimes we have a natural way of dealing with a situation.

Can you put faith into something you can't see? With God you have to. Just as you know on a cloudy that the sun is really up and shining, although you can't see it you still have evidence to support your understanding. So it is with those who have a belief in God. There is evidence that in everything we see and also things we can't see, the Creator is there. The only fly in the ointment is that man has done a monumental muck-up of this earth in that he is killing it, and mostly in the name of science.

How do we know a demon isn't answering instead of God? That's not so easy to pinpoint. Knowing something is one thing, but knowing it accurately is a totally different ball game. So accurate knowledge of God helps the seeker to understand what God likes, dislikes, supports or dismisses. Then our prayers can be targeted into specifics rather than generalisations. Prayer is useful for calming the body in times of stress which can be a good thing. Being stressed or wound up or easily angered does no good to the body at all. It all has to have an effect sometime and somewhere and usually does.

The answers to the majority of our questions are to be found quite easily. Where faith comes into play is will we accept that what we dismiss is actually the thing we really need?

How can your "god" have likes and dislikes, woden? Why should you're "god" even listen to people's prayers, there is a chance other life is out there, why should 'he' listen to humans?
You ask "god" for help, but given me one instance where he has answered and told you what to do! Give me evidence of the "creator", give me reason to think the universe wasn't created by a chaos.

My Goddess is there and not, She is and isn't - She is the universe, one and many. I don't pray for her help, I make my own descisions based on what I'VE learned, not what She tells me - because She can't speak.
She isn't a physical entity and She isn't spiritual.

(I only personify the universe as a Goddess, because women bring forth life - the universe has no gender (shockingly))

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Well, in my life time I have only asked God one question. I simply turned my mental attention to God and asked my question without saying it aloud. He spoke to my mind.

I was very young, maybe eight years old. The children of my neighborhood were gathered in our yard and began having a very heated argument about the bottomless pit. Some said that there is a bottomless pit and some argued very violently that there wasn't. I didn't get involved. Some had said that it was true because it was in the bible. They ended their argument and all went away.

So, I turned my attention to God and asked, Is there a bottomless pit? He responded, "It will become known as the black hole."

How, exactly, did he respond? Audibly? A physical manifestation? A subtle 'feeling' in your head?

That was in the late 1950's. None of the black holes have become known as "the black hole" so I am still waiting. I did hear on the news last night that there is a star orbiting the black hole at the center of our galaxy. Maybe something will happen with that...

There are thousands, if not millions, of stars orbiting the supermassive black hole in centre of our galaxy. I'm curious that after 50-odd years of waiting, you still believe. Is that not enough time to think, "Hang on, maybe my 8-year-old brain simply made it up?".

Otherwise, I simply make requests of God silently, from time to time. He responds with miraculous changes in the situations that I get involved in.

What people who pray don't seem to know is that they need to ask for very significant changes in order to truly know that the power and intellegence of God created the change. I have prayed and he has done great miracles, but just like everyone else I know that I could always pray bigger.

Forgive my scepticism, but people pray for relief in famine, war, drought, natural disasters, etc, all the time, they occur nonetheless. You can bet that wherever a tragedy is occurring, there are people there who are praying for their lives, yet they die anyway.

I'm still curious how a cryptic message from the 50s that has yet to come to pass, convinces you that you 'interact' with God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The easy answer is you pray for help, guidance or direction. And yet that is not an easy thing to do. As a Wiccan/Pagan do you pray to the goddess? If you're faced with a trying situation, what do you do next? And how?

If I am faced with a situation, I use my brain to come up with the best possible solution. In Wicca, the Goddess is not there to hold our hand; even a cursory look at the world shows us that there is no Grand Parent™ keeping us safe, so why should we act as if there is?

Can you put faith into something you can't see? With God you have to. Just as you know on a cloudy that the sun is really up and shining, although you can't see it you still have evidence to support your understanding. So it is with those who have a belief in God. There is evidence that in everything we see and also things we can't see, the Creator is there.

If you have evidence to support your beliefs, then it isn't faith. But if I may, what evidence do you have for the existence of a Creator?

How do we know a demon isn't answering instead of God? That's not so easy to pinpoint. Knowing something is one thing, but knowing it accurately is a totally different ball game. So accurate knowledge of God helps the seeker to understand what God likes, dislikes, supports or dismisses. Then our prayers can be targeted into specifics rather than generalisations. Prayer is useful for calming the body in times of stress which can be a good thing. Being stressed or wound up or easily angered does no good to the body at all. It all has to have an effect sometime and somewhere and usually does.

Stress relief is hardly indicative of a divine communiqué.

The answers to the majority of our questions are to be found quite easily. Where faith comes into play is will we accept that what we dismiss is actually the thing we really need?

Which only begs the question: how do we know what we really need? Why are there no objectively verifiable answers, no giant flaming answers in the sky?

 

[Legion.As.One]

I agree with Wiccan_Child's points, very valid.