• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Argument for God's existence.

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    +342
    Atheist
    I'm afraid I edited the post after writing it. I wonder what you think of these points?

    1. What do I say to a representative of another religion who tells me that all I have to do is follow their religion and I will see that it is true? What if there are multiple religions which say this?
    2. What if I do try this, and I do not discover that it is true? What if I waste years of my life looking for God and never find Him? What if there is no God to be found?
    3. Why, if God is real, is there no simple way of demonstrating this? There are lots of difficult things about understanding a person's message, but it's generally pretty easy to tell if they exist or not.
    4. What about people who spent many years being faithful Christians, but eventually realised that they had been wrong, and that God does not, in fact, exist?
     
  2. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    +342
    Atheist
    Meh. You're arguing with a dictionary (theist and atheist mean these things) you seem strangely hung up on me writing astronomy instead of astrology by mistake, and you say the physical world doesn't exist.
    I think that's all that needs to be said, really. It's not like you've said anything that needs refuting.
     
  3. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single
    1. What do I say to a representative of another religion who tells me that all I have to do is follow their religion and I will see that it is true? What if there are multiple religions which say this?

    Let me know which religion or the divine of which religion claims that it was he who brought forth wisdom, has set up and possessed wisdom. No one claims but if they are then see which divine of the religion said it first and how he proved it.

    2. What if I do try this, and I do not discover that it is true? What if I waste years of my life looking for God and never find Him? What if there is no God to be found?

    If you had tried, it is never wasted, neither in life nor in death. Still if i were you, i will try until my death and not care about my life wasted. Wasted life is a life without God and an everlasting pain after death. Its all waste if i lost my soul after death. I will still choose to trust and follow his wisdom rather than mine, hoping i will find him in my moment of death when He comes to receive my soul.

    3. Why, if God is real, is there no simple way of demonstrating this? There are lots of difficult things about understanding a person's message, but it's generally pretty easy to tell if they exist or not.

    It does not seem to be simple because Human souls are blind and deaf and cannot see or hear properly because the darkness of sin blocks the eyes and ears of our soul. That is what makes the message difficult to understand. It becomes simple and easy to those who choose to trust the one who claims to have wisdom, because those people will receive the wisdom and understanding. As they walk in this path, their sins will be removed, helping them to see and hear clearly. When the darkness of sins are removed from our soul, then our eyes and ears become clean, and then only we can see the reality.

    4. What about people who spent many years being faithful Christians, but eventually realised that they had been wrong, and that God does not, in fact, exist?

    They need to understand that God is holy and humans are imperfect. If they only continued in faith and in patience and reverence until their death, they would eventually see that He does exist. No matter what, if they choose to drop in the midway in this life, they will acknowledge that He does exist after their death when their soul is released into the spiritual realms. But that wont do them any good at that time. No matter what people choose, all will see who God is and acknowledge and bow before Him, either in life or in death.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  4. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single
    1. What do I say to a representative of another religion who tells me that all I have to do is follow their religion and I will see that it is true? What if there are multiple religions which say this?

    Let me know which religion or the divine of which religion claims that it was he who brought forth wisdom, has set up and possessed wisdom. No one claims but if they are, then see which divine of the religion said it first and how he proved it.

    2. What if I do try this, and I do not discover that it is true? What if I waste years of my life looking for God and never find Him? What if there is no God to be found?

    If you had tried, it is never wasted, neither in life nor in death. Still if i were you, i will try until my death and not care about my life wasted. Wasted life is a life without God and an everlasting pain after death. Its all waste if i lost my soul after death. I will still choose to trust and follow his wisdom rather than mine, hoping i will find him in my moment of death when He comes to receive my soul.


    3. Why, if God is real, is there no simple way of demonstrating this? There are lots of difficult things about understanding a person's message, but it's generally pretty easy to tell if they exist or not.

    It does not seem to be simple because Human souls are blind and deaf and cannot see or hear properly because the darkness of sin blocks the eyes and ears of our soul. That is what makes the message difficult to understand. It becomes simple and easy to those who choose to trust the one who claims to have wisdom, because those people will receive the wisdom and understanding. As they walk in this path, their sins will be removed, helping them to see and hear clearly. When the darkness of sins are removed from our soul, then our eyes and ears become clean, and then only we can see the reality.

    4. What about people who spent many years being faithful Christians, but eventually realised that they had been wrong, and that God does not, in fact, exist?[/QUOTE]

    They need to understand that God is holy and humans are imperfect. If they only continued in faith and in patience and reverence until their death, they would eventually see that He does exist. No matter what, if they choose to drop in the midway in this life, they will acknowledge that He does exist after their death when their soul is released into the spiritual realms. But that wont do them any good at that time. No matter what people choose, all will see who God is and acknowledge and bow before Him, either in life or in death.

    @InterestedAtheist
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  5. Silmarien

    Silmarien Existentialist

    +3,509
    United States
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    US-Democrat
    I'm hung up over the utter arrogance of telling someone that they're wrong about what their own position is. Seriously, that's a level of presumption I don't usually see around here, so congratulations.

    I don't really see why you want to address the question of whether God exists when you refuse to discuss the question of what the claim "God exists" even means, and dismissively tell people that they're wrong when they approach it in a way you're not familiar with. That is kind of backwards and crazy, so at the very least I agree that a conversation here is not worth having.
     
  6. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    +342
    Atheist
    But I didn't tell you what your position was. I'm quite happy to accept that you are a theist. I just said that you were incorrect in the meaning of the word theism.
    You said:
    "If I give you a definition of theism, you do not get to tell me that I am making things up and insist on your own definition. You can ask for clarification on what precisely I mean, but if a theist is using language in a way you are unfamiliar with, it is up to you to adjust to it."
    And the answer is: of course I can tell you that you are making things up, if you are making things up. And of course it's not up to me to "adjust to you using language" if you're doing it wrong.
    You know, just because you are a theist, that does not mean you own the word. It has quite a specific meaning, and it's nothing to do with "reality is in some sense ultimately subjective in nature (i.e., that it is personal)". All it means is that you believe in a god of some kind. I'm not "making up my own definition," it's just that I know what the word means.

    Sorry, Silmarien, but when someone says something incorrect it's sometimes best just to tell them. It saves time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  7. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    +342
    Atheist
    I doubt that many religions make exactly the same claims as Christianity, but most of them say that they are the one true religion. So how do I tell if they are false and Christianity is true?
    Okay. Good for you. Now, from my point of view, how am I to know that God exists? Because if He doesn't then it certainly is a waste of my life to seek something that doesn't exist.
    Hmmm. And yet many people say that they have tried this, and it didn't work. Why is it that you can't give evidence to someone who doesn't yet believe in God so that he can believe?
    But these people are saying they did try, with great sincerity, to follow the Bible and to seek God; it's just that they couldn't. Apparently all you can do is offer the simple assertion that they were wrong and should have tried harder.
    So what am I to do if more than one religion says the same thing as you? I can't take them all on faith, they're mutually exclusive.
     
  8. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single

    No divine in other religions claim the exact same claim that He brought forth wisdom, has set up and possessed wisdom. If even say, look for the one who said it first and how he proved it. If someone said the same thing, then they have to explain/provide evidences of their wisdom.


    As i said you can see that He exists if you genuinely care to just listen to the God of wisdom. This question will be asked to every human being in their own mind during their lifetime because it is God who questions this in our minds to find out who cares to listen to Him. This question will go on because it is God who questions humans about what they think and have decided about Him. All humans will have this question. So the question in of it self is a proof that God is asking this to every human.


    Evidences are endless yet they become evident in each person's view only if they genuinely care to see and hear the God. He is speaking to all the people, all the time, in their minds, but it is the matter of who cares to listen and follow His voice.


    With all the religions trying to counterfeit the truth, it is very difficult. What is needed is wisdom that discerns the truth. It is safe to trust a guide who not only claims to have set-up and possess the wisdom but also have proved it. Your question should be who is the one that claims this and have proved it. No divine in other religions claim the exact same claim and explained why and how.

    @InterestedAtheist
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  9. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    +342
    Atheist
    And how did He prove it?
     
  10. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single
    Through out the whole bible, God provided the proofs of His wisdom. I have quoted the below scripture where He says how He proved it. However, its all over the bible, in every page.

    By wisdom God founded the earth and by understanding He established the heavens. By His knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew. Proverbs 3.

    He said that He brought forth and owns wisdom. By His wisdom, He raised the dead from their tombs. He caused thunders by His wisdom.

    I wish i could discuss all of it but i also wish that you look and find them yourself. If you read and look, you will find out that no one else could ever do what He did by His wisdom. Such is the greatness of His wisdom in whom i can rely and trust that He owns wisdom.
     
  11. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single
    I can only tell why they left the faith or couldn't find God, if/when i encounter those people and know their story, for then i can find out where they missed the track and went wrong which led them to think that God doesn't exist.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  12. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    +342
    Atheist
    Okay. But this is nothing but stories in the Bible. Do you see why a person who does not believe in God cannot find this convincing?
    You may find Dan Barker's book Godless to be of interest. He was a deeply sincere Christian for many years, before one day he started answering questions which led to a years-long journey of investigation which led him to conclude that there was no God.
    I am quite certain that anything you could say, he would have said, when he was a Christian. He believed deeply and sincerely, and was quite sure of his faith. But he still lost it. Believing that you are right does not guarantee that you are.
     
  13. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single
    So did he believe so deeply and sincerely and so sure of his faith that he did not even stand the test of faith. All who believe will be tested and found out. The only deep and sincere belief is the one that stands the test of faith and it is they that can only see the reality. Since he did not stand the test of faith, he obviously could not see any further. And who knows, he might one day regret and come back to faith.

    I will tell you why. A person cannot see it convincing because he/she do not have the wisdom that gives understanding to discern the truth about these "stories" unless that person first chooses to listen and follow the God of wisdom. My message is that in order to know what is real, one must first look for the God of wisdom and simply follow Him. I did for 25 years and stood the test of faith only after which i received the sight to see for real.

    We made our lives so feasible for us that we have abilities to fulfill all our own needs. That is why it is so easy to deny or ignore the existence of God. Perhaps, where/when human abilities fail to keep them, it will become very evident and simple to find God. However, God is wise beyond any human and is testing us all by allowing us with these abilities.

    You are not a reality and non-existent for a fish inside the depths of an ocean. Despite of whether a fish can see you or not, you do exist. Depending on where the fish is, it takes time, perseverance, patience, effort, hope and a long journey to find you and know that do you exists for real. It is same with every human soul.

    @InterestedAtheist
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  14. Yttrium

    Yttrium Active Member

    326
    +262
    United States
    Skeptic
    Single
    I know you mean well, but you write a lot without really saying anything. All that you say can be pretty much summed up in that one quote, which is excessively vague, to the point of being meaningless.

    Personally, I've found much wisdom in the Bible. None of it leads me to conclude that God exists, although I won't rule out the possibility.
     
  15. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

    275
    +295
    India
    Christian
    Single
    Now that you found it, then a wise man would choose to listen and follow it. I was speaking about giving it a genuine chance by listening and following it. If you haven't done that, then obviously you cannot conclude or come to a correct conclusion. I'm glad you did not rule out the possibility. I've listened, followed, and stood the test of faith, and then I've found it for real. I don't live in uncertainity anymore. I know my soul will rest in peace when its my time to die. I wish others also will have this assurance, joy, rest, and peace that my soul has.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  16. Silmarien

    Silmarien Existentialist

    +3,509
    United States
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    US-Democrat

    "Thus all three paths [monotheism, polytheism, atheism] are convinced of the unity and uniqueness of the absolute; where they differ is only in their notion of the manner in which man has to deal with the absolute or, alternatively, of how the absolute behaves towards him. If--to treat the question very schematically--monotheism starts from the assumption that the absolute is consciousness, which knows man and can speak to him, for materialism the absolute, being matter, is devoid of all personal predicates and can in no way be brought into contact with the concepts of call and answer; the most one could say is that man himself must liberate what is divine from matter, so that he would then no longer have God behind him as something that had gone before him but only in front of him as something to be creatively effected by him, as his own better future. Finally, polytheism can be closely related to both monotheism and atheism, because the powers of which it speaks imply the oneness of a supporting power, which can be thought of in either way. Thus it would not be difficult to show how in antiquity polytheism went perfectly well with a metaphysical atheism but was also combined with philosophical monotheism."


    Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Introduction to Christianity, pg 109

    At least in the Anglo tradition, the term "theism" is usually identified with the "philosophical monotheism" that's being discussed here--that's why we have concepts like "classical theism" and "philosophical theism," both of which are very explicitly monotheistic. I would probably challenge the use of the word "monotheism" to describe concepts like the Neoplatonic One or Brahman within the major forms of Hinduism, since they're not really personal in quite the same way that the Abrahamic God is, but these still involve the claim that the absolute is consciousness, so most people, myself included, would wrap them under the label of "theism." This is the standard understanding of the word within philosophy of religion.

    My claim that theism entails that reality is in some sense ultimately subjective in nature, i.e., that it is personal, is not something I made up. It's really just a paraphrase of saying that "the absolute is consciousness," since the mark of consciousness is subjectivity. If you were to read literature like the Neoplatonists, many of the early Church Fathers, the Upanishads, and so forth and so on, you would see that the absolute being ultimately subjective is really the common denominator.

    Of course, you can continue to disagree with me, with Pope Benedict XVI, with the entire theistic tradition going back at least 2500 years. Or you can admit that perhaps you don't know as much about theism as people who actually study theology.
     
  17. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

    +127
    Presbyterian
    Single
    Why not?

    No, as I explained to cv that if we discover that the universe is eternal, is not expanding or is not winding down energetically that would falsify the biblical model of the universe. Because all three things are taught by the bible about the universe using both books of revelation. So just like any scientific theory it is falsifiable.

    What special pleading?

    Given that entire societies being generally good and moving in the direction of good are very rare, so if such societies exist that would show that there may be a force outside of the natural forces working in such societies. The few societies where this is occurring were all founded on Christian principles thereby providing some evidence that the Christian God exists, though not proving it.

    In what way?
     
  18. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +398
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    Just like you would claim there is 'no evidence' for the many opposing asserted god claims you reject, whom claim 'evidence' demonstrates existence of their god(s) :)

    My point being, is that 'time', prior to the beginning of it's measurable state, is immeasurable. And this is where you instead demonstrate invoking the god of the gaps argument.


    The vast majority of biologists have and due accept evolution. And yet, you reject such a conclusion. Why are you bringing forth this point?.?.?.? Even if it actually were the case, that most scientists assert a finite universe?

    The Bible's ambiguity allows for many to draw many differing conclusions. As stated prior, all believers don't even unanimously agree on the meaning of the word 'day'... Let alone the Bible speaking about the "BB".

    The universe being finite vs eternal is certainly not a settled topic. Accepting the "BB" really have no relevancy. Until you address the video, and also the links I have provided thus far, this disagreement remains going nowhere....

    Then stop asserting it...

    What about all the humans whom are sure to have come to know an opposing god(s)?

    You don't think they could just as easily draw connections between their beliefs, and their believed upon god(s)? Again, even believers in Christ disagree about practically any and every passage of the Bible, and their believed Bible's 'true meaning(s)'.
     
  19. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +398
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    I disagree. I was a member of a nondenominational church for many years. Some were young earthers, some were old earthers. Some would assert the flood was local, some global. Some were more works based, and some were belief based; for salvation. Some believed in a literal hell, and some did not. And this was all within the one church I attended, reading from the same passages. This was before you might ask these same individuals of the 'definition' of their believed god.


    Again, asserting your own personal presupposition isn't what makes something 'true'. Let the evidence do the talking. Your above assertion presents nothing more than fallacious reasoning.


    Negative...

    Going back to your argument, millions have claimed to speak to opposing gods. Since you reject them, their asserted god is no more or less 'real' than the assertion of 'universe-creating pixies.'

    Again, when something was first asserted, has no relevancy as to whether or not this attestation is actually 'true.' Evidence does....


    Statistics suggest the possibility that the number of believers in Islam may some day surpass believers in Christianity. This must make Islam more 'true' and 'correct.'?.?.?.

    Adherent estimates in 2012
    Religion Adherents Percentage
    Christianity
    2.4 billion 33%
    Islam 1.8 billion 24.1%
     
  20. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

    +127
    Presbyterian
    Single
    Straw man, I didn't say that they KNOW, I said that so far most of the evidence says that it is finite. And that there is more empirical evidence that it is finite than there is that evolution is true.

    There is no rational gap, it is based on the knowledge that all effects require a cause. And, after I did make that very small rational leap, my experience with Him confirmed it.

    The Bible has never been proven wrong. What watchmaker? I was referring to an artist. But the real watchmaker argument is actually very good since it is based on knowledge not a gap in knowledge.

    Science, history, and logic.


    Huh? Millions of species have survived perfectly well for millions of years without assuming any of those things and according to Richard Dawkins criteria of spreading their genes are far more successful than humans. There is no reason natural selection would select for belief in God or some watching agent.
     
Loading...