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Argument for God's existence.

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by createdtoworship, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    The yom ages are not days so plants surviving for a long time isn't a factor
    Yom 1 Night and day, Evening morning--------------------------Yom4 The sun the moon the planets.
    Yom 2 Water separated from sky --------------------------------Yom5 Birds, creatures of the sea.

    Yom 3 Ground and Sea.The land produced vegetation----------Yom6 Animals, Man

    Night and day goes with the Sun and the moon . OR time starts with the universe. Don't you get that ? This is the only logical explanation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  2. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    The word yom is used for many periods of time in the Old testament.
    Word Study Yom

    Hebrew Dictionaries


    Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom;



    The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)

    "It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)

    from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger

    As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length.


    Other Uses of Yom


    Day is not the only translation for the word Yom. Here are some other uses.



    Time



    It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time." For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

    In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever." In this case, Yom is equal to "forever." How long is forever? An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years. If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis?


    Year


    Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year." In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..." In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old." Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years." In each case, Yom represents years, not days.

    Age

    Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age." These range from sentences like "stricken in age," meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7). Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime. In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."

    Ago



    One time Yom is translated "ago." 1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."



    Always



    Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7. Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).

    Season

    Three times yom is translated "season." In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward." Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...". In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

    Chronicles

    When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).

    Continually

    When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times). Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).


    Ever

    Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways." Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever." The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever. In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time. I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example. In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever." Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever. Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.

    Evermore

    In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore." Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.



    Word Usage in the Old Testament



    As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time. Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general. How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.
     
  3. Silmarien

    Silmarien Existentialist

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    We do teach astronomy in science classes. It is a science.

    I assume you mean astrology? They are two very different things.
     
  4. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    You still have the same problem. Where did the first external Universe come from ?
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    If the Universe is eternal, that means there was never a time in history when the Universe did not exist.
     
  6. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    See my post to cvanwey where I deal with this assertion.

    That is not a miss in the bible, but rather a miss by the interpreter. But of course, they didn't have all the information from God's other book, Nature, that showed how old the universe is and how it shows the more likely correct interpretation of the bible.

    Evidence it is invalid? Yes, it would help to show that the Creator is benevolent.

    I am not claiming I can prove it is God, but it is the conclusion of abductive reasoning, ie to the most likely conclusion.
     
  7. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Quite right. Thank you for correcting me.
    At the Dover Trial, under cross-examination Michael Behe (who is one of the most famous members of the Discovery Institute and who writes for the ID website @gradyll shared with us) was forced to admit that for ID to qualify as a science, astrology would have to as well. As the judge wrote:

    "It is notable that defense experts' own mission, which mirrors that of the IDM itself, is to change the ground rules of science to allow supernatural causation of the natural world, which the Supreme Court in Edwards and the court in McLean correctly recognized as an inherently religious concept. Edwards, 482 U.S. at 591-92; McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1267. First, defense expert Professor Fuller agreed that ID aspires to "change the ground rules" of science and lead defense expert Professor Behe admitted that his broadened definition of science, which encompasses ID, would also embrace astrology. (28:26 (Fuller); 21:37-42 (Behe))."
     
  8. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    I did see it. You didn't deal with it.
    In other words, the Bible can never be incorrect, because whenever it disagrees with reality this must just be a mistake in our reading of it. This is, of course, a logical fallacy. Any religion could use your line of reasoning to prove that any religion is correct. It proves anything and, therefore, proves nothing.
    The Cosmological Argument employs special pleading and, as such, fails.
    Nonsense. Even if - and this is highly debatable - Christianity could be shown to be responsible for "most of the best things in Western civilisation" all this would prove is that people believe God wants them to be good - not that God actually exists.
    Supposing, for example, we came across a hitherto undiscovered tribe of people who lived lives to a very high moral standard. When questioned, they said it was because the god of their tribe, a spirit who lived in the forest wanted them to be good. Would this convince you that the spirit of the forest was real?
    In your own imagination only, I'm afraid. Convince yourself of anything you like, but your "arguments" aren't nearly as good as you think they are.
     
  9. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    sir time started when mass was created. Which would be when the sun moon and planets were created. We have a space time continuum. Mass, space and time are all fatally interrelated. IF you have mass and time, but no space where would you put the mass? IF you had mass and space but no time, when would you put it? So time was created when the majority of mass and space were created according to our current laws of physics. So no, time was not created later. So you still must answer the question, if yom equals greater than a day or two, how could plants (which exist in time) live without sun for a long yom age?
     
  10. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    the way a dictionary works is the first #1 usage is the most common, #2 is a 24 hour period. So that would be the second most common usage. The third and the fourth are vast periods. But you would have to go with the number one first, then work your way to the next few one by one. In other words if there is no reason to dismiss the 24 hour period, then that would be the definition (if context allows).
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  11. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    duplicate
     
  12. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    yes sir, that was a long time ago. Sorry for the pun, but ID has "evolved" and separated from creationism, so that is no longer the case. Back when Behe was testifying, they were very similar.

    I have showed you this before, but this is for silmarien to see too, because your posts are inaccurate.

    http://www.discovery.org/a/3191

    most ID'ers that I know and have interviewed do not associate with creationism as it used it in Behe's testimony, which was a long time ago. Creationists still use views of ID however, sort of like how a physicist uses laws of gravity in his equations but is distinct from the law. For example you will see various citations of ID within christianity and creationism to support their creationism, but ID does not cite anything other than science and logic to support their views. This is just a way over stated strawman tactic. See evolutionists can't refute the principles of ID but they can make them sound ridiculous when use ad hominem attack to make them similar to astrology for example.

    To settle this I can give you emails of people who work for discovery institute and you can email them and ask them, that is how I found out. But you will have to message me for that information.

    But seeing how mocking is easier than research and is a lazy man's go to for debate around here, I doubt anyone will message me on it. But you can always surprise me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  13. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    ok sorry I misread that.
    There is very strong evidence for the big bang. Like the aprox 3 degrees of radiation left over from the big bang.
    The fact that the universe is moving away.
     
  14. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Almost all astronomers agree on the theory of the Big Bang, that the entire Universe is spreading apart, with distant galaxies speeding away from us in all directions. Run the clock backwards to 13.8 billion years ago, and everything in the Cosmos started out as a single point in space. In an instant, everything expanded outward from that location, forming the energy, atoms and eventually the stars and galaxies we see today. But to call this concept merely a theory is to misjudge the overwhelming amount of evidence.

    There are separate lines of evidence, each of which independently points towards this as the origin story for our Universe. The first came with the amazing discovery that almost all galaxies are moving away from us.


    In 1912, Vesto Slipher calculated the speed and direction of “spiral nebulae” by measuring the change in the wavelengths of light coming from them. He realized that most of them were moving away from us. We now know these objects are galaxies, but a century ago astronomers thought these vast collections of stars might actually be within the Milky Way.

    In 1924, Edwin Hubble figured out that these galaxies are actually outside the Milky Way. He observed a special type of variable star that has a direct relationship between its energy output and the time it takes to pulse in brightness. By finding these variable stars in other galaxies, he was able to calculate how far away they were. Hubble discovered that all these galaxies are outside our own Milky Way, millions of light-years away.

    So, if these galaxies are far, far away, and moving quickly away from us, this suggests that the entire Universe must have been located in a single point billions of years ago. The second line of evidence came from the abundance of elements we see around us.

    In the earliest moments after the Big Bang, there was nothing more than hydrogen compressed into a tiny volume, with crazy high heat and pressure. The entire Universe was acting like the core of a star, fusing hydrogen into helium and other elements.

    This is known as Big Bang Nucleosynthesis. As astronomers look out into the Universe and measure the ratios of hydrogen, helium and other trace elements, they exactly match what you would expect to find if the entire Universe was once a really big star.

    Line of evidence number 3: cosmic microwave background radiation. In the 1960s, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson were experimenting with a 6-meter radio telescope, and discovered a background radio emission that was coming from every direction in the sky – day or night. From what they could tell, the entire sky measured a few degrees above absolute zero.

    WMAP data of the Cosmic Microwave Background. Credit: NASA

    Theories predicted that after a Big Bang, there would have been a tremendous release of radiation. And now, billions of years later, this radiation would be moving so fast away from us that the wavelength of this radiation would have been shifted from visible light to the microwave background radiation we see today.

    The final line of evidence is the formation of galaxies and the large scale structure of the cosmos. About 10,000 years after the Big Bang, the Universe cooled to the point that the gravitational attraction of matter was the dominant form of energy density in the Universe. This mass was able to collect together into the first stars, galaxies and eventually the large scale structures we see across the Universe today.

    These are known as the 4 pillars of the Big Bang Theory. Four independent lines of evidence that build up one of the most influential and well-supported theories in all of cosmology. But there are more lines of evidence. There are fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background radiation, we don’t see any stars older than 13.8 billion years, the discoveries of dark matter and dark energy, along with how the light curves from distant supernovae.

    So, even though it’s a theory, we should regard it the same way that we regard gravity, evolution and general relativity. We have a pretty good idea of what’s going on, and we’ve come up with a good way to understand and explain it. As time progresses we’ll come up with more inventive experiments to throw at. We’ll refine our understanding and the theory that goes along with it.

    Most importantly, we can have confidence when talking about what we know about the early stages of our magnificent Universe and why we understand it to be true.
     
  15. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    that's really has got nothing to do with the way ancient Israelites use the word yom
     
  16. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    the burden of proof lies on the skeptic to prove that the universe has no mass, because if it has mass it's not eternal, and is under time, according to general relativity.
     
  17. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I care about how the Bible uses the word yom, not how a backsliding nation did.
     
  18. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    You are missing what I'm saying. Cosmologists don't know if the 'universe' is eternal or finite.?


    What Happened Before the Big Bang?

    Stephen Hawking Says He Knows What Happened Before the Big Bang

    The 'BB" is a place-holder term. It is recognized as the earliest current measurable moment of our universe. What happened before this could be infinite or finite.

    The fact that you leap to a 'personal cause', before finding out what is/was going on prior to the 'Big Bang' appears fallacious in it's conclusion. 'God of the gaps' also comes to mind...


    The Bible is ambiguous at best, and wrong at it's worst.

    Also, you threw in a variation of the 'watch maker' argument. I think we all know this 'argument' all too well.....


    Please list the specific sources of your 'evidence'?

    Beg to differ.... Long ago, when we had to hunt for food or gather water, if you were walking along a path, and heard a russell in the bushes, you would think two conclusions... 1. the wind, or 2. something russelling the bushes. The ones whom assumed the former, were all eventually killed off. Thus, all that is left, are the ones whom assume the later.

    It's the same reason if one hears a noise in the dark, most automatically first assume danger. It's instinct. We inherit these instincts, from the surviving relatives. We also apply this intentional agency for 'good'. Meaning, if something 'good' happens, we assume it was given by some watching agent. This is most likely why the vast majority of people invoke intentional agency for both 'God' and 'evil'.

    If the above is true, then 'evolution 101' may be demonstrated.
     
  19. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    The ancient Israelites culture and language, wrote the Old testament of the bible. That was my point.

    For example

    Day 1 Night and day, Evening morning

    The Days are starting at sun set. This has to do with the Jewish sabbath. You do realise that Gradyll ?
    So the fact that Yom is used for different periods of time all through Genesis is very important.
     
  20. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    God wrote the old testament. He inspired the jewish culture and human minds to be able to be a part of writing God's word. But the culture did not write the old testament.
     
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