Argument for God's existence.

[ToddNotTodd]

in the mean while, I had further confirmation while reading my bible today, so I wanted to post what I read, If you are open to christianity as an atheist...

I’ve read the Bible. It’s words on a page unless you have evidence that your god is real. And so far, you haven’t done a very good job of it.

In fact, one of Christian friends is convinced your an atheist trying to make Christians look bad. I don’t believe this is true, but you should know that Christians may think this to be true...

 

[createdtoworship]

I do know exactly what I'm saying. I claimed that multiverse theory is possibly the answer to the origins of this universe, and you have shown that you have no reason to discount it. I don't have a belief about the origin of the universe, I just don't know.

There is plenty of evidence in cosmology and mathematics and physics to show multiverse theory is plausible, but I don't need to go into all of that. I only needed to show it was possible. You claimed it was impossible, therefore God must have done it, and you were shown to be wrong when you ran out of objections to the theory.

Now that that is settled, let's move on to Spontaneous Generation. Please tell me briefly in your own words how they disproved Spontaneous Generation.

I apologize sir, but until you can give evidence for your claims, I am done with debating with you. I will only block you for two weeks, then unblock you. This will give you time to give irrefutable evidence for your claims. who cares what is possible, purple elephants could possibly create the universe, but it is irrational to believe so. Let me repost some of my thoughts on why you need to give evidence for your claims:

How could a collection of rocks floating in a multiverse gain the ability to create an entire universe from absolutely nothing? I await your reply. Secondly, say a miracle happened and a multiverse allowed asteroids floating in a multiverse ability to wave a magic wand and create an entirely separate universe from nothing (ex nihilo). Why would a multiverse create another completely separate universe that it had no working relationship with? Just to be nice? So we not only have miraculous meteors, but we have benevolent meteors. Not only that but these meteors are timeless and have no beginning, even though they have mass, and are susceptible to time via general relitivity. This is sounding more and more like mythology. It takes more faith to believe that. Than It Does to believe, God who n is self existent and self defining (per the definition of God), creating the universe in order to ultimately save, love, and glorify his creation, and to spend eternity, exploring how he in fact created, and to spend time with His creation, in loving fellowship.

 

[createdtoworship]

You are, for the umpteenth time, saying people have “blind faith” in a multiverse, when no one has said they believed a multiverse to be actually existent. I doubt you could even find a cosmologist to say that.

Do you realize you’re seeming like the most dishonest apologist I’ve ever encountered? You may not be, but instead just not paying attention to anything anyone is saying, but either way it doesn’t look good for you.

And with all talk about pornography and homosexuality, it sounds like projection to me. You may want to look into that, along with your pride issues.

Just trying to help...

sir just read nicholas decka's posts, right before your post. He specifically claims to believe in a multiverse, however he does not believe he needs evidence for his belief.

On your other topic
Sir I have been free from pornography for seven years. As well as two other addictions unrelated, that I am free from. All because of Christ in me. If you can prove you have the software needed to stay pure online, I may actually believe you are porn free, but truth is 7 out of 10 males, or even more probably are into internet porn. But without Christ you are hopelessly addicted. Take the steps to recovery, you can message me and I can guide you through the recovery process.

And yes I did have an issue with homosexuality only briefly about ten years ago, it was not an addiction, but it was related to a nervous breakdown over the financial crisis, and getting laid off. As soon as christ healed me of the anxiety, I was also healed of homosexuality. I believe homosexuality is treatable like a mental illness is treatable.

 

[Moral Orel]

I apologize sir, but until you can give evidence for your claims, I am done with debating with you. I will only block you for two weeks, then unblock you. This will give you time to give irrefutable evidence for your claims. who cares what is possible, purple elephants could possibly create the universe, but it is irrational to believe so.

I did give evidence for my claims. I claimed that a multiverse is possible, which makes your argument that no other option besides God is possible. You, sir, are dishonestly claiming that I believe a multiverse created the universe, which I explicitly stated at the beginning of this conversation is not the case. You are trying to shift the burden of proof, and I'm not falling for it. My claim is that we don't know

Now you're going to block me because I beat you? Feel free. It won't stop me from correcting your points, it will only make it so that my refutations of your arguments go unanswered. Since you've been ignoring me for most of the thread, I doubt I'll notice the difference. And given that I haven't made one insulting or rude comment to you this entire time, I can only conclude that putting my on the Ignore List is a defensive tactic. You see that your points have been thoroughly trounced, and you have to retreat because you have nothing to argue against my own points.

Let me repost some of my thoughts on why you need to give evidence for your claims:

How could a collection of rocks floating in a multiverse gain the ability to create an entire universe from absolutely nothing? I await your reply. Secondly, say a miracle happened and a multiverse allowed asteroids floating in a multiverse ability to wave a magic wand and create an entirely separate universe from nothing (ex nihilo). Why would a multiverse create another completely separate universe that it had no working relationship with? Just to be nice? So we not only have miraculous meteors, but we have benevolent meteors. Not only that but these meteors are timeless and have no beginning, even though they have mass, and are susceptible to time via general relitivity. This is sounding more and more like mythology. It takes more faith to believe that. Than It Does to believe, God who n is self existent and self defining (per the definition of God), creating the universe in order to ultimately save, love, and glorify his creation, and to spend eternity, exploring how he in fact created, and to spend time with His creation, in loving fellowship.

I already refuted this line of thought. See post #822. You failed to refute my points, I won, you lost. If you have anything new to add, feel free.

 

[Moral Orel]

sir just read nicholas decka's posts, right before your post. He specifically claims to believe in a multiverse

That, sir, is a lie. Here is what I specifically claimed. See the part in bold:

Now personally, I like the multiverse theory. It isn't a full belief I hold, but there's enough evidence for it to be plausible, so I can't reject it, and I find it interesting.

I expect an apology for your dishonesty. If you're trying to set an example as to what Christianity is, dishonesty is a bad path to choose.

 

[createdtoworship]

That, sir, is a lie. Here is what I specifically claimed. See the part in bold:

I expect an apology for your dishonesty. If you're trying to set an example as to what Christianity is, dishonesty is a bad path to choose.

Sir, I believed everything I said. I apologize if it was wrong or misunderstood. But to say it was a lie is rude and innacurate, also impossible to verify. So I won't ask for an apology as you have. Because I am not that emotionally attache'd to these posts as you seem to be. I do recommend to take a step back, maybe browse some athiest threads for awhile to get refueled and reenergized and truly think about what you are actually posting. Saying things like " I don't need evidence of my views only to prove they are possible". And such coments has me a bit worried. Please rethink you position, and maybe read a book on debate tactics. Science is all about evidence, it's not about possibilities. And as such your posts are anti scientific. But because you accused me falsely of lying and because you are not really posting your views clearly when you type them down. I won't be addressing your posts for two weeks. I will try to catch up at that point but no guarantees. I hope you understand. Rules for success here are to provide evidence for every positive statement, debate in an unemotional and logical way, and avoid insulting others you disagree with by calling them liars and such. Take care.

 

[Moral Orel]

Sir, I believed everything I said. I apologize if it was wrong or misunderstood. But to say it was a lie is rude and innacurate, also impossible to verify. So I won't ask for an apology as you have. Because I am not that emotionally attache'd to these posts as you seem to be. I do recommend to take a step back, maybe browse some athiest threads for awhile to get refueled and reenergized and truly think about what you are actually posting. Saying things like " I don't need evidence of my views only to prove they are possible".

See that bolded part that you claim I said? It didn't happen. It's false. I've corrected you repeatedly, @ToddNotTodd has corrected you repeatedly, and you still make the same false claim. That is why it is a lie and not a mistake. You do know better, and yet you persist. If you want to quote me, use the quote feature, because I never said anything of the sort.

I'm not emotionally invested. Don't confuse me calling you out for dishonesty as me being upset. I'm merely pointing out your lack of credibility. Why should anyone believe any of the testimony you've posted in this thread when you clearly have no interest in telling truthful statements?

And such coments has me a bit worried. Please rethink you position, and maybe read a book on debate tactics. Science is all about evidence, it's not about possibilities. And as such your posts are anti scientific. But because you accused me falsely of lying and because you are not really posting your views clearly when you type them down. I won't be addressing your posts for two weeks. I will try to catch up at that point but no guarantees. I hope you understand. Rules for success here are to provide evidence for every positive statement, debate in an unemotional and logical way, and avoid insulting others you disagree with by calling them liars and such. Take care.

I didn't make the positive statement you have claimed I did. That's the lie. That's why I don't need to prove the multiverse. You claimed, "God must have done it because everything else is impossible" I claimed "Other theories are possibly true". I didn't claim "The multiverse created the universe" and I explicitly stated that wasn't my claim. Yet you still said that I specifically made that claim, knowing it to be false. I gave you a pass the first few times you've done it, assuming it was a simple mistake, but after a pattern emerges, it's clearly dishonesty and not a misunderstanding.

I already disproved any problems you had with the multiverse in post 822. I already won that argument. Now I'll gladly prove that your reasoning about Spontaneous Generation is wrong as well, but you're running from discussing that with me by putting me on ignore because you know that I'll refute your reasoning so soundly that you'll have no response for it again.

 

[Skreeper]

I believe homosexuality is treatable like a mental illness is treatable.

Sorry to inform you that you are wrong.

You can't pray the gay away and cure people of homosexuality.

This rhetoric that homosexuality is a mental illness that needs to be cured is why the suicide rate of gay teens is so high. Shame on you for contributing to it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sorry to inform you that you are wrong.

You can't pray the gay away and cure people of homosexuality.

This rhetoric that homosexuality is a mental illness that needs to be cured is why the suicide rate of gay teens is so high. Shame on you for contributing to it.

people commit suicide over a range of addiction problems. But here is the peer review data that homosexuality is pathology:

LGBT Mental Health Bibliography


there are many books on homosexuality as a pathology


see below (also added to new homosexual study)


A Peer Review Article states:


“It was observed that early childhood experiences are important in the causation of homosexuality, early channelization of the sexual drive or to objects of the same sex by homosexual seduction and subsequent habituation also played an important part.”


“eleven of 13 patients appear to have been deprived of a father figure in childhood. Thompson,Jr. et al. (1973) found that male homosexuals reported more hostile, detached fathers compared to heterosexual controls. Freund et al. (1974) reported significantly poorer father-son relationships among homosexuals. Freund et al. (1974) found unreplaced loss of father before the age of five approaching significance among homosexuals when compared with heterosexuals. Our findings appear to be in agreement with these studies.”


“ (1982), 24(2), 182—186 MALE HOMOSEXUALITY : A PSYCHIATRIC STUDY OF THIRTEEN CASES1 P. V. PRADHAN8 , M.D., D.P.M. K. S. AYYAR3 , M.D. V. N- BAGADIA*, M.D., D.P.M. (Eng.), F.A.P.A., F.R.C. Psych.”


Part 2 of 2 documents Document found:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC3012870&blobtype=pdf


part 1 of 2 document found:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC3012889&blobtype=pdf


another peer review article on homosexuality caused by mental illness due to detached parental figures:

Peer Review -distant father as a factor in homosexual men -pt 1 of 2.pdf

 

[Skreeper]

people commit suicide over a range of addiction problems. But here is the peer review data that homosexuality is pathology:

LGBT Mental Health Bibliography


there are many books on homosexuality as a pathology


see below (also added to new homosexual study)


A Peer Review Article states:


“It was observed that early childhood experiences are important in the causation of homosexuality, early channelization of the sexual drive or to objects of the same sex by homosexual seduction and subsequent habituation also played an important part.”


“eleven of 13 patients appear to have been deprived of a father figure in childhood. Thompson,Jr. et al. (1973) found that male homosexuals reported more hostile, detached fathers compared to heterosexual controls. Freund et al. (1974) reported significantly poorer father-son relationships among homosexuals. Freund et al. (1974) found unreplaced loss of father before the age of five approaching significance among homosexuals when compared with heterosexuals. Our findings appear to be in agreement with these studies.”


“ (1982), 24(2), 182—186 MALE HOMOSEXUALITY : A PSYCHIATRIC STUDY OF THIRTEEN CASES1 P. V. PRADHAN8 , M.D., D.P.M. K. S. AYYAR3 , M.D. V. N- BAGADIA*, M.D., D.P.M. (Eng.), F.A.P.A., F.R.C. Psych.”


Part 2 of 2 documents Document found:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC3012870&blobtype=pdf


part 1 of 2 document found:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC3012889&blobtype=pdf


another peer review article on homosexuality caused by mental illness due to detached parental figures:

Peer Review -distant father as a factor in homosexual men -pt 1 of 2.pdf

All I need to disprove all that is my own life. I have no detached parental figures, I have never been abused, I have never been tempted by media.

And somehow I turned out to be gay anyway. How neat is that.

Also your studies are from 1970 - 1980. Hardly surprising that during this time period homosexulaity was looked at negatively. Got anything recent?

 

[createdtoworship]

All I need to disprove all that is my own life. I have no detached parental figures, I have never been abused, I have never been tempted by media.

And somehow I turned out to be gay anyway. How neat is that.

Also your studies are from 1970 - 1980. Hardly surprising that during this time period homosexulaity was looked at negatively. Got anything recent?

if those studies were recent they would have been harassed, threatened or possibly killed by activists. I do have recent peer reviews about AIDS problems with homosexual men, but even that guy got fired, and kicked out of university from activists complaining. So there is not an honesty among research, because of the fact it is a political hot button.

but I provided links to several works supporting the homosexuality as pathology premise.

but in most peoples encounter with the mental illness, homosexuality was related to depression and stress. The distant father issue was a depression issue, but other issues can cause depression. In my case my short lived experience with it was because of stress from losing a job. Once I had medication managment and counseling, and had a new secure job the mental illness of homosexuality self corrected.

 

[Skreeper]

if those studies were recent they would have been harassed, threatened or possibly killed by activists. I do have recent peer reviews about AIDS problems with homosexual men, but even that guy got fired, and kicked out of university from activists complaining. So there is not an honesty among research, because of the fact it is a political hot button.

but I provided links to several works supporting the homosexuality as pathology premise.

but in most peoples encounter with the mental illness, homosexuality was related to depression and stress. The distant father issue was a depression issue, but other issues can cause depression. In my case my short lived experience with it was because of stress from losing a job. Once I had medication managment and counseling, and had a new secure job the mental illness of homosexuality self corrected.

I could dig up countless works supporting the idea that homosexuality is not a mentall illness and we can have a study war that will get us nowhere.

I'll just rely on the scientific consensus which quite clearly does not categorize it as a mental illness.

 

[Moral Orel]

I could dig up countless works supporting the idea that homosexuality is not a mentall illness and we can have a study war that will get us nowhere.

I'll just rely on the scientific consensus which quite clearly does not categorize it as a mental illness.

I'm beginning to suspect he's arguing against homosexuality all of a sudden, clearly a topic far removed from the OP, because he's trying to get his thread shut down, and that's one of the easiest ways to do it. He's starting to see he's losing very badly, finally, and is lashing out in desperation. It would be too obvious of a retreat if he simply asked a mod to close it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'm beginning to suspect he's arguing against homosexuality all of a sudden, clearly a topic far removed from the OP, because he's trying to get his thread shut down, and that's one of the easiest ways to do it. He's starting to see he's losing very badly, finally, and is lashing out in desperation. It would be too obvious of a retreat if he simply asked a mod to close it.

If I’m not mistaken, a closed thread still shows up in the total list of threads. That means I can still point people to it for my own purposes. And if not, I’ve got screen captures of most of it.

So it’s not the case that anyone can hide from what was said...

 

[Skreeper]

I'm beginning to suspect he's arguing against homosexuality all of a sudden, clearly a topic far removed from the OP, because he's trying to get his thread shut down, and that's one of the easiest ways to do it. He's starting to see he's losing very badly, finally, and is lashing out in desperation. It would be too obvious of a retreat if he simply asked a mod to close it.

You're probably right. And I also probably shouldn't engage him with this topic but it hits close to home and I just can't help it.

I already had my fair share of warnings and bans because I talk about it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You're probably right. And I also probably shouldn't engage him with this topic but it hits close to home and I just can't help it.

I already had my fair share of warnings and bans because I talk about it.

There used to be a time where you could talk about it, but it got pretty ugly. I kept seeing posts here reposted on other websites as examples of Christian hate. It probably wasn’t very good PR.

 

[createdtoworship]

I could dig up countless works supporting the idea that homosexuality is not a mentall illness and we can have a study war that will get us nowhere.

I'll just rely on the scientific consensus which quite clearly does not categorize it as a mental illness.

that is the bandwagon fallacy.

but regardless, I already proved dozens of scholarly articles showing the mental issues of homosexuality, and seeing that the gay gene theory has been disproven, it really is just proves a mental issue.

 

[createdtoworship]

There used to be a time where you could talk about it, but it got pretty ugly. I kept seeing posts here reposted on other websites as examples of Christian hate. It probably wasn’t very good PR.

saying homosexuals go to hell, is no different than saying liars go to hell, or fornicators. Don't make yourself a victim when your not. I say this as a former homosexual. (And knowing full well it can be treated, it's called conversion therapy), but regardless of whether conversion therapy works or not, I don't know. If people simply treated people that are homosexual for anxiety and depression, many of the side affects of homosexuality would auto correct, as I can attest to. (they are not born with homosexual genes, that has been disproven) But it is important to realize that those struggling with that sin, can repent still. But it's those who are proud and arrogant over their sin, that are no longer struggling with it, but accept it fully, that is where you get into apostacy, or false conversion or both. It is only the proud homosexual that is in danger of hell fire, as would be the proud adulterer or proud liar, or proud thief.

to talk more about apostacy, or leaving the faith go here:

Leaving salvation

 

[Skreeper]

that is the bandwagon fallacy.

but regardless, I already proved dozens of scholarly articles showing the mental issues of homosexuality, and seeing that the gay gene theory has been disproven, it really is just proves a mental issue.

You did nothing of the sort. But nothing I can do or say would change your mind.

Just know that you're the kind of person I had to fight every day growing up. But I survived and now I can help others that struggle with being bullied and shamed by people like you simply for being different.

 

[Skreeper]

saying homosexuals go to hell, is no different than saying liars go to hell, or fornicators. Don't make yourself a victim when your not. I say this as a former homosexual. (And knowing full well it can be treated, it's called conversion therapy), but regardless of whether conversion therapy works or not, I don't know. If people simply treated people that are homosexual for anxiety and depression, many of the side affects of homosexuality would auto correct, as I can attest to. (they are not born with homosexual genes, that has been disproven) But it is important to realize that those struggling with that sin, can repent still. But it's those who are proud and arrogant over their sin, that are no longer struggling with it, but accept it fully, that is where you get into apostacy, or false conversion or both. It is only the proud homosexual that is in danger of hell fire, as would be the proud adulterer or proud liar, or proud thief.

Thank you for basically saying that being gay is on the same level as lying, or stealing or murdering.

Since we wanna stay consistent I hope you don't mind if I consider you and people with views like yours no different than ISIS?