Argument for God's existence.

[createdtoworship]

So if there is no mass in the universe, there is no time, and if there is no time, there is no causality, and if there is no causality, the mass in the universe need not have had a cause. Cause and effect, by your logic, were born with time and mass. Time and mass needn’t have been caused any more than causality itself need have been caused. That argument is self-defeating.

Of course I know these things. When I ask you something, it’s not for my edification, it’s to get you to explain in your own words what something means so I can see what your understanding of it is. So you admit you can’t prove causation and yet you want to place God as the cause for something that we don’t even know for sure had a cause. Good to know.


This is completely irrelevant, but what exactly am I supposed to disagree with here?


I don’t have to prove any alternative. You have to prove that there are no logically possible alternatives because you’re the one making that claim. That’s the burden of proof you took on when you made the argument that God was the only logical option. I’m sorry you’ve chosen to make an argument that requires you to meet an impossible burden of proof, but I’m not going to let you stand there and make your claims unchallenged just because it’s impossible for you to demonstrate the things you’re saying.

Here are some logically possible alternatives to your God hypothesis:
Pixies did it.
Multiple gods did it.
One god did it then killed itself.
It happened on its own by forces no one understands.
It’s all been a simulation.
It’s all been a dream.

The list of logically possible explanations is inexhaustible. You’ve unfortunately made the claim that nothing on that list is logically possible, so you really do have to go down it and prove not that each item is unlikely or seems implausible, but *logically impossible.* I don’t have to go down that list and explain how they don’t invoke a logical contradiction. That would be requiring me to prove a negative


Ah, so the alternatives have to work and have evidence, but yours doesn’t! The lack of evidence for the others works as evidence for yours? That’s hilariously asinine. I could use that same argument on any of the unsupported alternatives just as easily. Do you really not see the problem?




Ok, I should have said “weak analogy,” not argument by analogy. My mistake, but still your fallacy. But why are you going on about Wikipedia? You committed argument by weak analogy, now either own it or explain why it doesn’t apply to your argument. I already explained why it does.

By the way, this bizarre rant you just went on about Wikipedia is an example of the genetic fallacy. You took a wild stab at where I learned about argument from (weak) analogy (you were wrong) and then tried to argue that because Wikipedia can be unreliable I must be wrong. Haven’t I explained this to you before?


Stop trying to tell me what I believe. I’ve already told you I don’t know. The multiverse was brought up as just a single possibility. If something about the multiverse were responsible for the emergence of this local-presentation universe, I guess in some abstract sense you could call the multiverse a creator, but only in the same sense that you could call boiling water a creator of bubbles.


But what constitutes evidence?

I can see we are getting no where, let's try this another way. What is the purpose of a multiverse theoretically creating a universe? Not I did not call the multiverse a creator, and I didn't note that all of this is scientifically unsound. We are thinking philosphically, speaking why would a multiverse that it's not proven and is uncaused (because you cannot prove there is no mass) why would it create a universe, and create logic, granted it superceded logic. In theism we have motive. In athiesm you not only have no provable alternative to the God theory, a multiverse breaks down even if it is proven, because you have no motive. In a crime one of the ways you prove someone did not commit a crime is if there is no motive, no purpos for them doing so. This is evidence against a multiverse, lack of motive. So even if it could be proven, and if can't. It would still have problems. I say these things to get you thinking. You have no option but to trust Christ. He loves mankind and desires a relationship with them. Please reply to this post: Argument for God's existence.

 

[gaara4158]

I can see we are getting no where, let's try this another way. What is the purpose of a multiverse theoretically creating a universe? Not I did not call the multiverse a creator, and I didn't note that all of this is scientifically unsound. We are thinking philosphically, speaking why would a multiverse that it's not proven and is uncaused (because you cannot prove there is no mass) why would it create a universe, and create logic, granted it superceded logic. In theism we have motive. In athiesm you not only have no provable alternative to the God theory, a multiverse breaks down even if it is proven, because you have no motive. In a crime one of the ways you prove someone did not commit a crime is if there is no motive, no purpos for them doing so. This is evidence against a multiverse, lack of motive. So even if it could be proven, and if can't. It would still have problems. I say these things to get you thinking. You have no option but to trust Christ. He loves mankind and desires a relationship with them. Please reply to this post: Argument for God's existence.

Why are you still going on about a multiverse? You can ask all day about the why and how a multiverse would come to cause this local-presentation universe to exist, and that’s a fine conversation to have in a thread where you’re not trying to argue for God’s existence, but in this thread you are. That means that you really do need to show that the innumerable alternatives are either implausible or impossible, and you simply can’t do that. You’re making a valiant effort against a multiverse, but even if you were successful in proving it couldn’t exist, you wouldn’t be any closer to proving your case for God. I’ve tried to warn you about this multiple times now, but you’re just not getting it. I don’t know what else to tell you. It’s time to try something else.

 

[createdtoworship]

Why are you still going on about a multiverse? You can ask all day about the why and how a multiverse would come to cause this local-presentation universe to exist, and that’s a fine conversation to have in a thread where you’re not trying to argue for God’s existence, but in this thread you are. That means that you really do need to show that the innumerable alternatives are either implausible or impossible, and you simply can’t do that. You’re making a valiant effort against a multiverse, but even if you were successful in proving it couldn’t exist, you wouldn’t be any closer to proving your case for God. I’ve tried to warn you about this multiple times now, but you’re just not getting it. I don’t know what else to tell you. It’s time to try something else.

let me remind you. The only response you had to God doing it, is that a multiverse did it. So I am addressing this in context of proving God's existence, so please provide answers to the question. What is the motive of a multiverse creating another, completely separate universe? If you cannot answer this, then we have exhausted this discussion. I assume you cannot. So this discussion is over. Unless you can provide proof of a multiverse, or of it's creation of the known universe, or of a multiverse without causation. All of these positive statements were made in this thread by atheists to explain an alternative to God doing it. So please provide evidence. If you cannot, the my evidence stands that God did it. The evidence provided in the OP. Let me remind you that last time I stated this, you said it was a false dichotomy. Yes it's a dichotomy, the Bible is full of dichotomies. Thats not a bad thing. A false dichotomy is when two options are provided but there is more options available. I have provided three options. God did it, the universe created itself as per stephen Hawking, or a multiverse that is uncaused created the universe. Two of those are without evidence by definition. One by definition has evidence. God can create, God can be outside of time, God has motive. A multiverse cannot be outside of time, that we know of because if it exists, it most likely has mass, and if it has mass, it is susceptible to time. So I have asked you numerous time to provide evidence of a massless multiverse, and you cannot, because it is self refuted at that point. And secondly a multiverse does not have a sufficient motive for creating a universe. What does it get out of it, how is it benefited from a completely separate universe being created? Again, when I ask this question you seem offended that I am asking for why. If motive is sufficient to criminalize or declare innocence in a court of law, then it can be of use in this discussion. So thank you for the discussion, I feel I have done all I can to persuade you. And at this point I am repeating myself. I can see some of your comments are becoming repetitive as well. Surely you see this. I won't stop replying till you are done, but I am getting to the end of the rope here. I can only do so much.

 

[gaara4158]

let me remind you. The only response you had to God doing it, is that a multiverse did it. So I am addressing this in context of proving God's existence, so please provide answers to the question. What is the motive of a multiverse creating another, completely separate universe? If you cannot answer this, then we have exhausted this discussion. I assume you cannot. So this discussion is over. Unless you can provide proof of a multiverse, or of it's creation of the known universe, or of a multiverse without causation. All of these positive statements were made in this thread by atheists to explain an alternative to God doing it. So please provide evidence. If you cannot, the my evidence stands that God did it. The evidence provided in the OP. Let me remind you that last time I stated this, you said it was a false dichotomy. Yes it's a dichotomy, the Bible is full of dichotomies. Thats not a bad thing. A false dichotomy is when two options are provided but there is more options available. I have provided three options. God did it, the universe created itself as per stephen Hawking, or a multiverse that is uncaused created the universe. Two of those are without evidence by definition. One by definition has evidence. God can create, God can be outside of time, God has motive. A multiverse cannot be outside of time, that we know of because if it exists, it most likely has mass, and if it has mass, it is susceptible to time. So I have asked you numerous time to provide evidence of a massless multiverse, and you cannot, because it is self refuted at that point. And secondly a multiverse does not have a sufficient motive for creating a universe. What does it get out of it, how is it benefited from a completely separate universe created? Again, when I ask this question you seem offended that I am asking for why. If motive is sufficient to criminalize or declare innocence in a court of law, then it can be of use in this discussion. So thank you for the discussion, I feel I have done all I can to persuade you. And at this point I am repeating myself. I can see some of your comments are becoming repetitive as well. Surely you see this. I won't stop replying till you are done, but I am getting to the end of the rope here. I can only do so much.

Just read my response again. I know, I hate it when people tell me to do that too, but in this case it’s appropriate. It’s less patronizing than copy-pasting my last response.

 

[createdtoworship]

Just read my response again. I know, I hate it when people tell me to do that too, but in this case it’s appropriate. It’s less patronizing than copy-pasting my last response.

no thank you. I just want to finish with this: You can always find reasons to doubt, but if you don't hold on to those tiny reasons to believe, you don't live. Atheism is not living. Atheism is existing. But not living. Christ is the river of living water that springs up in our soul and overflows to thousands. I had a vision of heaven this week. Every single cell in my body was shouting in ecstasy. I saw lots of light, no darkness. I would give up everything just to have a few more seconds, and to maybe record it. But I can't. I have had probably half a dozen visions in the last two to three months. I have prayed for visions to happen in my life for years and years. Finally God started speaking to me in my dreams. Another vision I had was I was a tree, and thousands of birds were in the tree. I don't have an interpretation for it. But I know it was real. Another vision I had I saw people healed that were sick. Two of them. I documented the vision, and those have not happened yet, then I had that latest vision of heaven. That was so incredible. I wish I can say the christian life is easy, it's totally not. At least not genuine Christianity. There are a lot of fakers out there, that confess with their lips but their hearts were far from him. And yet some were genuine believers at once, but their later end is worse than their beginning. After leaving the christian faith they delved into sin more than they did before they were christian. So much so that the non christians are staying away from them because of their evil tendencies. All this is recorded in the Bible. It happened just that same way to the nation of Israel. They aligned with pagan nations around them, and their idols, and their false gods. And they delved into paganism worse than the pagans. So much that the pagans felt they were unclean by being with Israel. Ezekiel documents this. God eventually drove them from their idolatry, by sending them into bondage into Babylon. I believe 70 years. Jerusalem Israels capital and the resting place of God was so wicked with paganism, that God's presence left the temple altogether. Most Christians don't read the old testament, they are scared of the passages that mention that adulterers were put to death, but I read today that the Assyrians would cut off the nose and the ears of the adulterers (Ezek 23:25). They would deform them for life. A fate worse than death, every time someone would see them they would know they sinned. I much rather prefer the gracious death. And when you realize that sin in the presence of God is in fact death. It makes sense. See death is not that bad. Ten out of ten die. Our life is just the dash between two dates on a head stone, in a cemetery. Think about that sentence for awhile. So for God to call someone home early for sin, well that makes sense. God clearly commanded them with the ten commandments, and declared they would in fact die if they sinned against some specific commands, and they did it anyway, knowing that they could be killed. So that is important to know. But the point is that an eye for an eye was actually gracious. See when someone poked out your eye, your tendency is to beat them to death. I would. I mean an eye is priceless. What does a man give in exchange for his eye, say I payed you five billion dollars for an eye, would you give it? How about five hundred trillion dollars for two of your eyes? Yet the Bible says, "if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire" Matt 18:9. And "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28 Just as I had a vision of eternal bliss where every cell of my body praised God in Ecstasy, there is the reverse of that. Where every cell in the body, cries in pain. I don't know if you have ever been burned, but skin cells definitely spike up the pain signals upon being burned. A burned cell hurts way more than a cut cell, or an abrasion. There is a reason for this. So that there is no punishment worse than hell. Every cell cries in pain. all the time, with no end to it. If it were merely a physical flame, it would burn your flesh and skeleton, but because it's a spiritual prison for satan, and designed for satan, it burns flesh and spirit. It literally burns your soul, but before the great white throne judgment, a small thing happens that most don't understand. The wicked dead have glorified bodies, and they are resurrected for judgment. That means their souls meet up[ with their bodies, and they are in a glorified state. Perfect for living for ever. They can enter the quantum realm, or the metaphysical realm at that point. But the reason for their glorification is more sobering. It's so that when they get tossed into the lake of fire, that the fire won't consume them. Being glorified, they will no longer be able to die. And they will suffer forever in Hell. IF you have ever told a lie, you are according to the Bible, a liar. If you have ever looked at a woman in lust, you are what the Bible calls an adulterer at heart. If you have ever said, O-M-G, or other phrase, you have used God's name as a curse word, and according to God's Bible you are a blasphemer. If you have ever stolen a paper clip (the value is irrelevant), then according to the Bible you are a thief. So according to four of the ten commandments you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. And that is only four. On Judgement day will you be guilty or innocent? You know you will be guilty. So you will go to hell. Eternal hell. There is one requirement to go to heaven. I can tell you what it is. Jesus came and lived a perfect life, at the end of his life He died on a cross for your sins, my sins and even our future sins. After He died, He was resurrected to prove that God the father had accepted God the son's sacrifice and put His stamp of approval on it. Now we can go to heaven. The one requirement is to repent of any known sin that is keeping us from God, and believe in Jesus. It is a free gift. If I gave you a gift, say a watch. It would not be yours until you put it on. Today you can invite Jesus into your heart, and He will stay forever. The problem with some who are saved, is that they never repented of sin at salvation. And what happens is that they get sidetracked back into the same sin again. God has saved them, but because they fall back into sin, they start doubting God and His salvation. Eventually they leave the faith, and God will never force you to be saved. I have assurance of salvation because, I know I live for God, if I sin, I repent of it. If I am addicted to some sin, I read all the books I can about that addiction and strive to be free of it. God has freed me from two major addictions this way. Sometimes it takes a third party to help you get free from addiction, don't try it by yourself. There are lots of hotlines. But the point is this. We are saved by grace. It's is not by works. There is nothing I can do to save myself, according to the ten commandments I fail every time. But God has saved me, and my life has changed for the better, I follow more of the commandments today, then when I was first saved in 1994. I am more like Christ. In fact the things I do today, I thought were impossible. I thought I would never be free from my addictions. I thought it was impossible. But nothing is impossible for God. IF you fail, you just get back up. The Bible says "For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again" Prov 24:16a. I encourage you to do that one requirement. Either be in heaven by accepting Jesus, or fight with Him like you have been doing all this time on this thread, and reject His salvation. It's up to you. There is plenty of evidence to believe in God. I mean when you reject God you simply believe a multiverse created itself, and/or had no causation at all which is just as ridiculous. You live by faith every day, by accepting atheism which is unproven. The original definition of atheism was someone who didn't believe in God. Yet it is impossible to prove the absence of anything. That is what is called proving a negative. So the atheist viewpoint is unproven, they live by faith in the said atheism. later on they changed the definition to mean something else. Basically that they see no evidence of God or something like that. But there is no evidence for atheism either. So regardless of where you put your faith, you can't hide from your faith. No fact is proven, no scientific theory is proven, that is why they are theories. Faith is what our brains normally live by. So take that faith that is already there, and place it in Christ. Read the Bible daily and obey it. God won't let you down.

 

[Skreeper]

no thankyou. I just want to finish with this: You can always find reasons to doubt, but if you don't hold on to those tiny reasons to believe, you don't live. Atheism is not living. Atheism is existing. But not living. Christ is the river of living water that springs up in our soul and overflows to thousands. I had a vision of heaven this week. Every single cell in my body was shouting in ecstasy. I saw lots of light, no darkness. I would give up everything just to have a few more seconds, and to maybe record it. But I can't. I have had probably half a dozen visions in the last two to three months. I have prayed for visions to happen in my life for years and years. Finally God started speaking to me in my dreams. Another vision I had was I was a tree, and thousands of birds were in the tree. I don't have an interpretation for it. But I know it was real. Another vision I had I saw people healed that were sick. Two of them. I documented the vision, and those have not happened yet, then I had that latest vision of heaven. That was so incredible. I wish I can say the christian life is easy, it's totally not. At least not genuine christianity. There are alot of fakers out there, that confess with their lips but their hearts were far from him. And yet some were genuine believers at once, but their later end is worse than their beginning. After leaving the christian faith they delved into sin more than they did before they were christian. So much so that the non christians are staying away from them because of their evil tendencies. All this is recorded in the Bible. It happened just that same way to the nation of Israel. They aligned with pagan nations around them, and their idols, and their false gods. And they delved into paganism worse than the pagans. So much that the pagans felt they were unclean by being with Israel. Ezekiel documents this. God eventually drove them from their idolatry, by sending them into bondage into babylon. I believe 70 years. Jerusalem Israels capital and the resting place of God was so wicked with paganism, that God's presence left the temple altogether. Most christians don't read the old testament, they are scared of the passages that mention that adulterers were put to death, but I read today that the Assyrians would cut off the nose and the ears of the adulterers. They would deform them for life. A fate worse than death, every time someone would see them they would know they sinned. I much rather prefer the gracious death. And when you realize that sin in the presence of God is in fact death. It makes sense. See death is not that bad. Ten out of ten die. Our life is just the dash between two dates on a head stone, in a cemetary. Think about that sentence for awhile. So for God to call someone home early for sin, well that makes sense. God clearly commanded them with the ten commandments, and declared they would in fact die if they sinned against some specific commands, and they did it anyway, knowing that they could be killed. So that is important to know. But the point is that an eye for an eye was actually gracious. See when someone poked out your eye, your tendency is to beat them to death. I would. I mean an eye is priceless. What does a man give in exchange for his eye, say I payed you five billion dollars for an eye, would you give it? How about five hundred trillion dollars for two of your eyes? Yet the Bible says, if your eye causes you to stumble, to pluck it out, or if your hand causes you to sin, to cut it off, it is better to go into life maimed than to be cast into eternal hell. Do not fear what man can do to the body, after he has killed you, that is all he can do. But fear God who, after he has killed you, has the power to cast your soul into eternal hell. Just as I had a vision of eternal bliss where every cell of my body praised God in Ecstasy, there is the reverse of that. Where every cell in the body, cries in pain. I don't know if you have ever been burned, but skin cells definitely spike up the pain signals upon being burned. A burned cell hurts way more than a cut cell, or an abrasion. There is a reason for this. So that there is no punishment worse than hell. Every cell cries in pain. all the time, with no end to it. If it were merely a physical flame, it would burn your flesh and skeleton, but because it's a spiritual prison for satan, and designed for satan, it burns flesh and spirit. It literally burns your soul, but before the great white throne judgment, a small thing happens that most don't understand. The wicked dead have glorified bodies, and they are resurrected for judgment. That means their souls meet up[ with their bodies, and they are in a glorified state. Perfect for living for ever. They can enter the quantum realm, or the metaphysical realm at that point. But the reason for their glorification is more sobering. It's so that when they get tossed into the lake of fire, that the fire won't consume them. Being glorified, they will no longer be able to die. And they will suffer forever in Hell. IF you have ever told a lie, you are according to the Bible, a liar. If you have ever looked at a woman in lust, you are what the Bible calls an adulterer at heart. If you have ever said, O-M-G, or other phrase, you have used God's name as a curse word, and according to God's Bible you are a blasphemer. If you have ever stolen a paper clip (the value is irrelevant), then according to the Bible you are a thief. So according to four of the ten commandments you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. And that is only four. On Judgement day will you be guilty or innocent? You know you will be guilty. So you will go to hell. Eternal hell. There is one requirement to go to heaven. I can tell you what it is. Jesus came and lived a perfect life, at the end of his life He died on a cross for your sins, my sins and even our future sins. After He died, He was resurrected to prove that God the father had accepted God the son's sacrifice and put His stamp of approval on it. Now we can go to heaven. The one requirement is to repent of any known sin that is keeping us from God, and believe in Jesus. It is a free gift. If I gave you a gift, say a watch. It would not be yours until you put it on. Today you can invite Jesus into your heart, and He will stay forever. The problem with some who are saved, is that they never repented of sin at salvation. And what happens is that they get sidetracked back into the same sin again. God has saved them, but because they fall back into sin, they start doubting God and His salvation. Eventually they leave the faith, and God will never force you to be saved. I have assurance of salvation because, I know I live for God, if I sin, I repent of it. If I am addicted to some sin, I read all the books I can about that addiction and strive to be free of it. God has freed me from two major addictions this way. Sometimes it takes a third party to help you get free from addiction, don't try it by yourself. There are lots of hotlines. But the point is this. We are saved by grace. It's is not by works. There is nothing I can do to save myself, according to the ten commandments I fail every time. But God has saved me, and my life has changed for the better, I follow more of the commandments today, then when I was first saved in 1994. I am more like christ. In fact the things I do today, I thought were impossible. I thought I would never be free from my addictions. I thought it was impossible. But nothing is impossible for God. IF you fail, you just get back up. The Bible says the righteous man falls seven times a day and gets back up. I encourage you to do that one requirement. Either be in heaven by accepting Jesus, or fight with Him like you have been doing all this time on this thread, and reject His salvation. It's up to you. There is plenty of evidence to believe in God. I mean when you reject God you simply believe a multiverse created itself, and/or had no causation at all which is just as ridiculous. You live by faith every day, by accepting atheism which is unproven. The original definition of atheism was someone who didn't believe in God. Yet it is impossible to prove the absence of anything. That is what is called proving a negative. So the atheist viewpoint is unproven, they live by faith in the said atheism. later on they changed the definition to mean something else. Basically that they see no evidence of God or something like that. But there is no evidence for atheism either. So regardless of where you put your faith, you can't hide from your faith. No fact is proven, no scientific theory is proven, that is why they are theories. Faith is what our brains normally live by. So take that faith that is already there, and place it in Christ. Read the Bible daily and obey it. God won't let you down.

Wall of text preaching isn't going to convince anybody.

If your goal is to get people to accept Christ, then you're doing a really bad job.

 

[Moral Orel]

What is the motive of a multiverse creating another, completely separate universe?

A multiverse doesn't need a motive to spawn universes any more than a rain cloud needs a motive to produce puddles.

You stopped responding to our other discussion after I posted #416. I hope you'll go back and address it.

 

[gaara4158]

no thankyou. I just want to finish with this: You can always find reasons to doubt, but if you don't hold on to those tiny reasons to believe, you don't live. Atheism is not living. Atheism is existing. But not living. Christ is the river of living water that springs up in our soul and overflows to thousands. I had a vision of heaven this week. Every single cell in my body was shouting in ecstasy. I saw lots of light, no darkness. I would give up everything just to have a few more seconds, and to maybe record it. But I can't. I have had probably half a dozen visions in the last two to three months. I have prayed for visions to happen in my life for years and years. Finally God started speaking to me in my dreams. Another vision I had was I was a tree, and thousands of birds were in the tree. I don't have an interpretation for it. But I know it was real. Another vision I had I saw people healed that were sick. Two of them. I documented the vision, and those have not happened yet, then I had that latest vision of heaven. That was so incredible. I wish I can say the christian life is easy, it's totally not. At least not genuine christianity. There are alot of fakers out there, that confess with their lips but their hearts were far from him. And yet some were genuine believers at once, but their later end is worse than their beginning. After leaving the christian faith they delved into sin more than they did before they were christian. So much so that the non christians are staying away from them because of their evil tendencies. All this is recorded in the Bible. It happened just that same way to the nation of Israel. They aligned with pagan nations around them, and their idols, and their false gods. And they delved into paganism worse than the pagans. So much that the pagans felt they were unclean by being with Israel. Ezekiel documents this. God eventually drove them from their idolatry, by sending them into bondage into babylon. I believe 70 years. Jerusalem Israels capital and the resting place of God was so wicked with paganism, that God's presence left the temple altogether. Most christians don't read the old testament, they are scared of the passages that mention that adulterers were put to death, but I read today that the Assyrians would cut off the nose and the ears of the adulterers. They would deform them for life. A fate worse than death, every time someone would see them they would know they sinned. I much rather prefer the gracious death. And when you realize that sin in the presence of God is in fact death. It makes sense. See death is not that bad. Ten out of ten die. Our life is just the dash between two dates on a head stone, in a cemetary. Think about that sentence for awhile. So for God to call someone home early for sin, well that makes sense. God clearly commanded them with the ten commandments, and declared they would in fact die if they sinned against some specific commands, and they did it anyway, knowing that they could be killed. So that is important to know. But the point is that an eye for an eye was actually gracious. See when someone poked out your eye, your tendency is to beat them to death. I would. I mean an eye is priceless. What does a man give in exchange for his eye, say I payed you five billion dollars for an eye, would you give it? How about five hundred trillion dollars for two of your eyes? Yet the Bible says, if your eye causes you to stumble, to pluck it out, or if your hand causes you to sin, to cut it off, it is better to go into life maimed than to be cast into eternal hell. Do not fear what man can do to the body, after he has killed you, that is all he can do. But fear God who, after he has killed you, has the power to cast your soul into eternal hell. Just as I had a vision of eternal bliss where every cell of my body praised God in Ecstasy, there is the reverse of that. Where every cell in the body, cries in pain. I don't know if you have ever been burned, but skin cells definitely spike up the pain signals upon being burned. A burned cell hurts way more than a cut cell, or an abrasion. There is a reason for this. So that there is no punishment worse than hell. Every cell cries in pain. all the time, with no end to it. If it were merely a physical flame, it would burn your flesh and skeleton, but because it's a spiritual prison for satan, and designed for satan, it burns flesh and spirit. It literally burns your soul, but before the great white throne judgment, a small thing happens that most don't understand. The wicked dead have glorified bodies, and they are resurrected for judgment. That means their souls meet up[ with their bodies, and they are in a glorified state. Perfect for living for ever. They can enter the quantum realm, or the metaphysical realm at that point. But the reason for their glorification is more sobering. It's so that when they get tossed into the lake of fire, that the fire won't consume them. Being glorified, they will no longer be able to die. And they will suffer forever in Hell. IF you have ever told a lie, you are according to the Bible, a liar. If you have ever looked at a woman in lust, you are what the Bible calls an adulterer at heart. If you have ever said, O-M-G, or other phrase, you have used God's name as a curse word, and according to God's Bible you are a blasphemer. If you have ever stolen a paper clip (the value is irrelevant), then according to the Bible you are a thief. So according to four of the ten commandments you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. And that is only four. On Judgement day will you be guilty or innocent? You know you will be guilty. So you will go to hell. Eternal hell. There is one requirement to go to heaven. I can tell you what it is. Jesus came and lived a perfect life, at the end of his life He died on a cross for your sins, my sins and even our future sins. After He died, He was resurrected to prove that God the father had accepted God the son's sacrifice and put His stamp of approval on it. Now we can go to heaven. The one requirement is to repent of any known sin that is keeping us from God, and believe in Jesus. It is a free gift. If I gave you a gift, say a watch. It would not be yours until you put it on. Today you can invite Jesus into your heart, and He will stay forever. The problem with some who are saved, is that they never repented of sin at salvation. And what happens is that they get sidetracked back into the same sin again. God has saved them, but because they fall back into sin, they start doubting God and His salvation. Eventually they leave the faith, and God will never force you to be saved. I have assurance of salvation because, I know I live for God, if I sin, I repent of it. If I am addicted to some sin, I read all the books I can about that addiction and strive to be free of it. God has freed me from two major addictions this way. Sometimes it takes a third party to help you get free from addiction, don't try it by yourself. There are lots of hotlines. But the point is this. We are saved by grace. It's is not by works. There is nothing I can do to save myself, according to the ten commandments I fail every time. But God has saved me, and my life has changed for the better, I follow more of the commandments today, then when I was first saved in 1994. I am more like christ. In fact the things I do today, I thought were impossible. I thought I would never be free from my addictions. I thought it was impossible. But nothing is impossible for God. IF you fail, you just get back up. The Bible says the righteous man falls seven times a day and gets back up. I encourage you to do that one requirement. Either be in heaven by accepting Jesus, or fight with Him like you have been doing all this time on this thread, and reject His salvation. It's up to you. There is plenty of evidence to believe in God. I mean when you reject God you simply believe a multiverse created itself, and/or had no causation at all which is just as ridiculous. You live by faith every day, by accepting atheism which is unproven. The original definition of atheism was someone who didn't believe in God. Yet it is impossible to prove the absence of anything. That is what is called proving a negative. So the atheist viewpoint is unproven, they live by faith in the said atheism. later on they changed the definition to mean something else. Basically that they see no evidence of God or something like that. But there is no evidence for atheism either. So regardless of where you put your faith, you can't hide from your faith. No fact is proven, no scientific theory is proven, that is why they are theories. Faith is what our brains normally live by. So take that faith that is already there, and place it in Christ. Read the Bible daily and obey it. God won't let you down.

No one reads these gargantuan walls of text, I hope you know that. It does reveal that you’re very emotionally invested in your position here and there’s a chance that’s getting in the way of you seeing what’s wrong with your reasoning. I’ll sum it up briefly one last time:

You’re trying to deduce the existence of God from the impossibility of any alternatives. You then collapse all conceivable alternatives into something you call “spontaneous generation” which you then dismiss by equivocating it with the archaic hypothesis meant to explain how maggots appear on rotting meat. The problem, if it’s not obvious from the way I just put it, is that I could use this very same logic for any conceivable alternative belief to the existence of God. Just throw God in with “spontaneous generation” as you do with things like simulation theory, magic wizards, pixies, etc., then define my pet theory (a multiverse, perhaps) as being privileged over these in some way and it’s identical to your argument. You wouldn’t accept that, nor should you. And I don’t accept yours.

 

[createdtoworship]

Wall of text preaching isn't going to convince anybody.

If your goal is to get people to accept Christ, then you're doing a really bad job.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Take care.

 

[createdtoworship]

this is a heart doctor, who recounts the stories of hundreds of patients coming back from the dead (being revived by CPR), He recounts how most of them had stories of heat, darkness and flames. This is an older video, from the 80's I believe, but it's stories are very real.

if you want to know the one requirement to get to heaven, I posted it here:

Argument for God's existence.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

so then is it damaging when you believe in a multiverse without evidence? Or is it only damaging when I do it? And I am pretty sure I asked if you can prove anything at all, and your silent reply was no.

1. I never said I believed in a multiverse. Putting words in people’s mouths is a dishonest tactic.

2. I wasn’t silent on the topic of proof. I’ve said several times that I don’t think proof should relate to anything other than math and alcohol. So this mischaracterization seems to be another dishonest tactic.

Why do you think I am here still?

If I were to guess, I’d say pride.

I believe God is glorified in all these conversations.

Do you believe that your god is glorified by illogical and seemingly dishonest arguments, which are turning actual people away from Christianity?

 

[createdtoworship]

1. I never said I believed in a multiverse. Putting words in people’s mouths is a dishonest tactic.

2. I wasn’t silent on the topic of proof. I’ve said several times that I don’t think proof should relate to anything other than math and alcohol. So this mischaracterization seems to be another dishonest tactic.



If I were to guess, I’d say pride.



Do you believe that your god is glorified by illogical and seemingly dishonest arguments, which are turning actual people away from Christianity?

Ok, then what caused the universe? Either it was created, or it made itself. If a multiverse did not create it, did it cause itself?

 

[gaara4158]

this is a heart doctor, who recounts the stories of hundreds of patients coming back from the dead (being revived by CPR), He recounts how most of them had stories of heat, darkness and flames. This is an older video, from the 80's I believe, but it's stories are very real.

if you want to know the one requirement to get to heaven, I posted it here:

Argument for God's existence.

Here's an excerpt from an actual Christian's review of your doctor's work found here https://dancingpastthedark.com/why-maurice-rawlings-report-many-hellish-ndes/:

What Michael Sabom reported after years of carefully reviewing Rawlings’ work was this:

[Rawlings] establishes himself before his audience as a cardiologist with impeccable credentials, a near-death researcher, and a committed Christian. Using these medical, scientific, and religious qualifications, he then presents the NDE as a glimpse of an afterlife and directly applies the Christian doctrine of heaven and hell to these experiences. This gridlike approach, however, poses problems to Rawlings in his interpretation of his and others’ research when the type of person (for example, non-Christian) or type of near-death event (for example, suicide attempt) does not jibe with the expected afterlife destination (for example, hell). Rawlings confronts the data of others with authoritative statements substantiated with little or no data of his own and illustrated with anecdotal accounts that, over time, appear to have been altered to fit his own designs…”

Sabom concluded, “I am a Christian and believe in heaven and hell. Based on current knowledge, however, we have much to learn about the NDE, both distressing and pleasant, before we can say confidently just what the experience means and how it fits into our spiritual beliefs.”

With that in mind, is this really the type of evidence you want to be using to show how robust you case for Christian theism is?

 

[createdtoworship]

Here's an excerpt from an actual Christian's review of your doctor's work found here https://dancingpastthedark.com/why-maurice-rawlings-report-many-hellish-ndes/:

What Michael Sabom reported after years of carefully reviewing Rawlings’ work was this:

[Rawlings] establishes himself before his audience as a cardiologist with impeccable credentials, a near-death researcher, and a committed Christian. Using these medical, scientific, and religious qualifications, he then presents the NDE as a glimpse of an afterlife and directly applies the Christian doctrine of heaven and hell to these experiences. This gridlike approach, however, poses problems to Rawlings in his interpretation of his and others’ research when the type of person (for example, non-Christian) or type of near-death event (for example, suicide attempt) does not jibe with the expected afterlife destination (for example, hell). Rawlings confronts the data of others with authoritative statements substantiated with little or no data of his own and illustrated with anecdotal accounts that, over time, appear to have been altered to fit his own designs…”

Sabom concluded, “I am a Christian and believe in heaven and hell. Based on current knowledge, however, we have much to learn about the NDE, both distressing and pleasant, before we can say confidently just what the experience means and how it fits into our spiritual beliefs.”

With that in mind, is this really the type of evidence you want to be using to show how robust you case for Christian theism is?

people all have their opinions, but I noticed that He made an assumption here:

"Essentially, that is the backstory of why Maurice Rawlings reported so many hellish experiences: He wanted to get people’s attention in order to save them from the hell he believed in; he wanted to give them a chance to accept a faith he trusted completely, and telling heavenly NDE accounts was not going to achieve that. He was being steadfastly and thoroughly evangelical."

how can he know motive?

this is skeptical

 

[gaara4158]

I read some of the article I did see that the author makes this assumption:

"Essentially, that is the backstory of why Maurice Rawlings reported so many hellish experiences: He wanted to get people’s attention in order to save them from the hell he believed in; he wanted to give them a chance to accept a faith he trusted completely, and telling heavenly NDE accounts was not going to achieve that. He was being steadfastly and thoroughly evangelical."
people all have their opinions, but I noticed that He made an assumption here:

"Essentially, that is the backstory of why Maurice Rawlings reported so many hellish experiences: He wanted to get people’s attention in order to save them from the hell he believed in; he wanted to give them a chance to accept a faith he trusted completely, and telling heavenly NDE accounts was not going to achieve that. He was being steadfastly and thoroughly evangelical."

how can he know motive?

this is skeptical

It’s skeptical, but it’s charitable. The guess at his motivation comes as the conclusion from the evidence: fudged data, clear evangelical message, focus on hellish experiences. Now this doesn’t mean he’s wrong. It might well be that he’s right, but he also might not be. The point is that his data is not enough to connect NDEs with any particular spiritual truth, and yet this is the type of evidence you put forward in defense of God’s existence. Is this really the best you’ve got?

 

[createdtoworship]

It’s skeptical, but it’s charitable. The guess at his motivation comes as the conclusion from the evidence: fudged data, clear evangelical message, focus on hellish experiences. Now this doesn’t mean he’s wrong. It might well be that he’s right, but he also might not be. The point is that his data is not enough to connect NDEs with any particular spiritual truth, and yet this is the type of evidence you put forward in defense of God’s existence. Is this really the best you’ve got?

I didn't see any fudging of data. That was the authors claim, but without evidence. This is why I don't agree with the article in general. Anyone can have an opinion. The Internet affords us anonymity, the ability to hide behind a screen, where our words and actions are not tied to our real-life identities. This allows us the freedom to drop the polite, bland mask we wear in our real lives, and show more arguably genuine aspects of ourselves. Sometimes that includes unfounded criticism.

 

[gaara4158]

I didn't see any fudging of data. That was the authors claim, but without evidence. This is why I don't agree with the article in general. Anyone can have an opinion. The Internet affords us anonymity, the ability to hide behind a screen, where our words and actions are not tied to our real-life identities. This allows us the freedom to drop the polite, bland mask we wear in our real lives, and show more arguably genuine aspects of ourselves. Sometimes that includes unfounded criticism.

The article explains exactly what data was fudged and how. It’s information taken directly from the books authored by the doctor. You can’t get much less “unfounded” than that.

Either way, why take the doctor at his word about NDE patients but not his critic about what’s in the book?

 

[createdtoworship]

The article explains exactly what data was fudged and how. It’s information taken directly from the books authored by the doctor. You can’t get much less “unfounded” than that.

Either way, why take the doctor at his word about NDE patients but not his critic about what’s in the book?

I understand. I don't have time to read it. If you want you can post the top three. And we can debate them. If not, then I will just go with my initial summarization of it as just unfounded opinion.

 

[createdtoworship]

I took a year of Bible college, and I learned alot. But I also forgot alot. This one movie always blows me away with the sheer volume of information it relays about Jesus. Don't trust churches or religious organizations to tell you. This movie is straight scripture, it actually reads right through Gospel of John. Even if I have seen it before, I still am amazed at scripture in movie form.

 

[gaara4158]

I understand. I don't have time to read it. If you want you can post the top three. And we can debate them. If not, then I will just go with my initial summarization of it as just unfounded opinion.

Ah, yes. Refuse to read anything that contradicts you and cling to your initial opinion until someone proves it wrong. That’s very objective.