Aren't we all physically ill?

JimB said:

Someone once asked me, “If God never did another thing for you, would you still serve him?” That is ludicrous, of course, since every breath I take is a gift from God, but I knew what he meant. Would I serve God if there were no perks—no answers to prayer, no healing, no heaven? Would I serve him for just his sake alone? How much am I a believer for his sake or for my own? Am I a Christian for what I can get out of it or for what I can give? Made me think? Still does?

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Very good questions ... and very worth asking ourselves from time to time, to be sure with ourselves that our hearts are 'right' with God and haven't gone astray.

Optimax said:

It is easy to see that this prayer is not going to bring healing.

Best for him to take the Tylenol and not waste the time with the unbelieving prayer.

Why do I say that?

Because Jesus said this.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. KJV

The Preacher is waiting until he is healed before he will believe it.

When did Jesus say that we have to believe it before we will have it?

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It's obvious that you don't believe God gave someone the intelligence and helped people invent Tylenol to help millions of people in pain.

why limit God so much to only one way of helping people? at least that's what it seems like to me when people say trust God but don't trust the medical help He's obviously put there to help them in their time of need because trusting in the medical help God's put there is a lack of faith. To my way of thinking that's strange and 'limiting God' type thinking to say its a lack of faith to accept God provided medical help.

Its like that guy sitting on the roof of a house in a flood praying for rescue when theres a boat sitting right there but he thinks rescue only comes in the form of a helicopter so he cant see the boat.


we have a different way of looking at the provision of God I suppose, that's ok, but I do find it odd when a lack of faith is defined as not accepting medical help.

FoundInGrace said:

It's obvious that you don't believe God gave someone the intelligence and helped people invent Tylenol to help millions of people in pain.

why limit God so much to only one way of helping people? at least that's what it seems like to me when people say trust God but don't trust the medical help He's obviously put there to help them in their time of need because trusting in the medical help God's put there is a lack of faith. To my way of thinking that's strange and 'limiting God' type thinking to say its a lack of faith to accept God provided medical help.

Its like that guy sitting on the roof of a house in a flood praying for rescue when theres a boat sitting right there but he thinks rescue only comes in the form of a helicopter so he cant see the boat.


we have a different way of looking at the provision of God I suppose, that's ok, but I do find it odd when a lack of faith is defined as not accepting medical help.

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I believe in the fact that God gave to us the blessing of medicine. God can and does work through natural means. I think it is odd that some in the church select healing as the area where we can only accept supernatural help and refuse to receive natural help. It is pretty rare that people expect the same for the food we eat. Millions of Christians go to the grocery store and buy food and don't stumble over some need to supernaturally multiple fish and loaves every time they need something to eat. Almost every Christian works a job without seeing a contradiction. They don't expect to find a coin in a fish's mouth every time they need to pay a bill. They simply partake of a paycheck earned through working.

But I do make the distinction that God did not give medicine to the church specifically. God gave the blessing of medicine to the entire human race irrespective of faith. People who have zero faith and are even avowed atheists can go to the grocery store and buy food , can work a job and earn a paycheck , can take a Tylenol and have their headache go away.

On the other hand , God gave the gift of supernatural healing to the Church. Those who operate in it do so on the basis of faith. If the gift of healing were commonly in operation in local churches around the nation , then Christians would not be going to the drug store so often.

Personally I see no need to put God to the test about every ache and pain. But i think we should be concerned if in the course of years , we never experience any supernatural healing from The Lord. It is supposed to be a gift to the church.

mourningdove~ said:

Very good questions ... and very worth asking ourselves from time to time, to be sure with ourselves that our hearts are 'right' with God and haven't gone astray.

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Here are the "very good" questions you're referring to;
First of all, heaven should not be denigrated as a "perk". It is the very reason Jesus Christ gave His life for us. What an irreverent way to refer to the thing God thought was worthy of His only begotten Son's life.

Secondly, scripture is quite clear that we are not to forget His benefits;
That's a whole lot of benefits that God has graciously given to us that we're instructed to not forget.

Additionally (emphasis added);
It's nothing more than false humility to suggest that we don't really need anything from God.

MikeBigg said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but wanted to add another angle as food for thought - there is no record in the Bible of Jesus saying to someone: "I'm not going to heal you, you'd be better off going to the doctor."

Regards,

Mike

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Truth. Also there is no example of Jesus telling someone no oh wait either.

Daniel was sick and exhausted for days but that was O.T.
It could be that his visions just put him out of his mind and health.

There's also no example of God healing masses of people all the time from Adam up to prior to the start of His earthly ministry. Neither is there such an example after the beginning years of the establishment of the church.

It all seems to be encapsulated within a certain period of time.

vitaminC said:

I can deal with this kind of thinking for a headache or a little bit of temporary and harmless pain , but for the more serious illness , it is a tough pill to swallow to suggest that God is the one who wants it to happen to me.

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Worse still, the people who believe this can't even tell you why. It usually goes something like this;
The formula for this belief is hopelessness with a side of cluelessness.

I don't know why people find comfort in thinking that God must be afflicting them for some unknowable reason. That's a schizophrenic God indeed; making you sick one minute, healing you the next. You just never know whether you can be healed, or whether God wants you to "learn something" (but we're not quite sure what the "something" is).

I don't know why it's so hard to admit that we just don't have all the answers. I sure don't. But I don't for one minute believe that God is making people sick for some greater, unknowable purpose.

If there is one foundational belief that I have established in my heart it can be summed up in 7 words; God is good. The devil is bad.

vitaminC said:

I have had that kind of thinking applied to me by my earthly father. The whole tough love thing. It did seem to work. But I think the only way that it works is if there has been enough help given in time of need that it is the exception and not the rule for my father not to help me when I need help. Also there is a point where it goes too far and become cruelty and abuse.

I can deal with this kind of thinking for a headache or a little bit of temporary and harmless pain , but for the more serious illness , it is a tough pill to swallow to suggest that God is the one who wants it to happen to me.

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I can honestly say that if I became paralyzed right now I would strongly desire suicide and would openly beg people to kill me. It would be a very different story if I had a wife and kids then I'd have no choice but to turn it into an example of endurance....but without anything else to live for I would not be able to continue living. Pain is one thing but to lose the future....that would be my breaking point.

Unfortunately, there are people who have lost their future before it had even started and you can tell just from meeting them that this wasn't God choosing particularly strong individuals for suffering. People crack every day. They crack and are lost for an eternity. I cannot make sense of this.

Yitzchak said:

I believe in the fact that God gave to us the blessing of medicine. God can and does work through natural means. I think it is odd that some in the church select healing as the area where we can only accept supernatural help and refuse to receive natural help. It is pretty rare that people expect the same for the food we eat. Millions of Christians go to the grocery store and buy food and don't stumble over some need to supernaturally multiple fish and loaves every time they need something to eat. Almost every Christian works a job without seeing a contradiction. They don't expect to find a coin in a fish's mouth every time they need to pay a bill. They simply partake of a paycheck earned through working.

But I do make the distinction that God did not give medicine to the church specifically. God gave the blessing of medicine to the entire human race irrespective of faith. People who have zero faith and are even avowed atheists can go to the grocery store and buy food , can work a job and earn a paycheck , can take a Tylenol and have their headache go away.

On the other hand , God gave the gift of supernatural healing to the Church. Those who operate in it do so on the basis of faith. If the gift of healing were commonly in operation in local churches around the nation , then Christians would not be going to the drug store so often.

Personally I see no need to put God to the test about every ache and pain. But i think we should be concerned if in the course of years , we never experience any supernatural healing from The Lord. It is supposed to be a gift to the church.

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I can hardly comprehend the arrogance of those Christians who believe in "faith healing". God is expected to miraculously save their family member but refuses to save someone elses child because those near to him/her didn't pray the proper prayer?! Outrageous! Christians should reject the idea of faith healing in all its forms. Those who cause a death as a result of this nonsense should be duly charged with negligent homicide. They are also worthy of Hell.

probinson said:

FTR, almost no one in this forum was talking about healing until you brought it up (again) to rehash all of the exact same arguments you've been making for years. Just to set the record straight.

But since you brought it up (again), I'll answer it (again). \

....

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QFT

FoundInGrace said:

It's obvious that you don't believe God gave someone the intelligence and helped people invent Tylenol to help millions of people in pain.

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Of course "God gave someone the intelligence and helped people invent Tylenol to help millions of people in pain."

God is love and loves those millions as well .

Even though they put their trust in "Tylenol" instead of Him.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. KJV

probinson said:

Worse still, the people who believe this can't even tell you why. It usually goes something like this;

"God's disciplining/teaching/molding you."

"Why? What am I supposed to learn?"

"Only God knows. His ways aren't our ways."
​

The formula for this belief is hopelessness with a side of cluelessness.

I don't know why people find comfort in thinking that God must be afflicting them for some unknowable reason. That's a schizophrenic God indeed; making you sick one minute, healing you the next. You just never know whether you can be healed, or whether God wants you to "learn something" (but we're not quite sure what the "something" is).

I don't know why it's so hard to admit that we just don't have all the answers. I sure don't. But I don't for one minute believe that God is making people sick for some greater, unknowable purpose.

If there is one foundational belief that I have established in my heart it can be summed up in 7 words; God is good. The devil is bad.

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In the case of my earthly father , his reason for tough love was to teach me to face the consequences of my choices. Like I said , as long as not carried to the point of cruelty , it was a worthwhile lesson. If a child learns that they will always be bailed out with no consequences for their poor choices , it can encourage even worse choices with the illusion that a person does not actually reap what they sow.

I figure that God can and does chastise us when we make poor choices. But it should not lead to confusion , it should motivate us to seek him diligently for his answer to our suffering. I think suffering can serve that purpose , but seems like a plan B. Plan A would be for us to seek God and make right choices without needing chastisement. But as most of us can attest to , that is not how it usually works out for us with our natural parents and neither is it how it works out for most with their heavenly father. Most of us need discipline sometimes rather than just learning our lesson the easy way by listening to our parents wisdom. As we grow , hopefully we grow out of that.

The ironic thing is that some combine the hyper grace message with the learn a lesson from our sickness message. I think that is the result of our global village where people can borrow one teaching from one group and another teaching from another group without actually forming a systematic Theology for what they believe. Thus a Christian believing several different doctrines which contradict is common today.

One other thought is that believing in sickness and hardship being used for chastisement implies that we believe we have actually done something wrong and a part of the lesson is found in repentance. That is another contradictory set of positions which is common. The idea that God is using sickness to teach me and the thought that I don't need to repent of anything. I figure we can't have it both ways. Either we say all sickness is from the devil or we admit God is trying to correct us which implies that we need correcting. One would expect more of a teachable and humble attitude from those who hold to the position that God is in the process of devastating them in order to correct them. Unfortunately it is more common to find a defensiveness that says " how dare you ? " to any who even suggest that God might be correcting my lack of faith or some other issue which requires repentance. It astounds me that the Christian community allows such a contradictory set of doctrines to be held by so many without forcing the issue and requiring a person to either take the humble position that God is humbling and correcting me or that the devil is attacking me. I don't see an honorable third option.

vitaminC said:

In the case of my earthly father , his reason for tough love was to teach me to face the consequences of my choices. Like I said , as long as not carried to the point of cruelty , it was a worthwhile lesson. If a child learns that they will always be bailed out with no consequences for their poor choices , it can encourage even worse choices with the illusion that a person does not actually reap what they sow.

I figure that God can and does chastise us when we make poor choices. But it should not lead to confusion , it should motivate us to seek him diligently for his answer to our suffering. I think suffering can serve that purpose , but seems like a plan B. Plan A would be for us to seek God and make right choices without needing chastisement. But as most of us can attest to , that is not how it usually works out for us with our natural parents and neither is it how it works out for most with their heavenly father. Most of us need discipline sometimes rather than just learning our lesson the easy way by listening to our parents wisdom. As we grow , hopefully we grow out of that.

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I have a slightly different belief. I'll share an incident that happened with my own son as an example.

A few years ago on my birthday, my 7-year old son thought that it would be a good idea to see how many steps he could jump. He started with just one or 2, but then he started going higher and higher on the steps, and my wife told him to stop. He didn't listen, so she told him to stop again. He still didn't listen, so she physically sat him down and told him to stay away from the stairs. But then, as my wife was working in the kitchen, he went back to the steps and jumped from the eighth step (which, apparently, was one step too high) and managed to crack a bone in his foot. This resulted in quite a bit of pain for him, a trip to the ER, and weeks in a walking boot that caused him to miss almost the entire first week of school.

My wife told my son to stop multiple times. Then she physically made him stop. But still, he made the decision to disobey, and the consequences for him were severe.

We didn't cause those circumstances for our son. In fact, we did everything we could (short of tying him up) to prevent him from hurting himself. And still he chose to make the wrong choice, which resulted in those consequences.

I believe this is how most often how God deals with us as well. He tells us, "Don't do that." He tells us again, "Don't do that!" He tries repeatedly to stop us from feeling the consequences of our actions. And still, we disobey and choose to face those consequences that God tried to warn us about.

In the end, it's our choices that lead us away from God's protection and into a sea of consequences that have little to do with God's plan for us, and much to do with our own disobedience.

Simply Put said:

Truth. Also there is no example of Jesus telling someone no oh wait either.

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well...ummmm..he kinda does stuff though....go figure...



Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

~RENEE~ said:

don't go to the doctor that'll go against the will of god cause after all it's his will that you are sick-----RIGHT!?

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go to a Christian Doctor at least!

besides, I never saw a Christian in an emergency room, turn down treatment!

why is the sick person always blamed for not having faith, but not the preacher, healer, etc, when the ill person is not healed?

Peter said we have the same faith as he does, so go ahead preacher, let your shadow heal others, and james said let the elders do it, yet, the elders never get blamed, they are out of the equation for some reason when one is not healed, it is always the ill person's fault..

Peter healed the lame guy in Acts 3, that was looking for money, probably did not know the Lord, had no NT text to confess, yet peter healed him, as he looked for money, so why can't preachers do that, where is THEIR FAITH?

GEE... we can always ask where the faith of the unhealed person is, that's allowed, but nothing the 'healer", why is that?

Where is his faith?

Soothfish said:

I can hardly comprehend the arrogance of those Christians who believe in "faith healing". God is expected to miraculously save their family member but refuses to save someone elses child because those near to him/her didn't pray the proper prayer?! Outrageous! Christians should reject the idea of faith healing in all its forms. Those who cause a death as a result of this nonsense should be duly charged with negligent homicide. They are also worthy of Hell.

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I hear where you're coming from.

mourningdove~ said:

Very good questions ... and very worth asking ourselves from time to time, to be sure with ourselves that our hearts are 'right' with God and haven't gone astray.

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probinson said:

Here are the "very good" questions you're referring to;

"Would I serve God if there were no perks—no answers to prayer, no healing, no heaven?"
​

First of all, heaven should not be denigrated as a "perk". It is the very reason Jesus Christ gave His life for us. What an irreverent way to refer to the thing God thought was worthy of His only begotten Son's life.

Secondly, scripture is quite clear that we are not to forget His benefits;

Psalm 103:2-5 (AMP)
Bless (affectionately, gratefully praise) the Lord, O my soul, and forget not [one of] all His benefits— Who forgives [every one of] all your iniquities, Who heals [each one of] all your diseases, Who redeems your life from the pit and corruption, Who beautifies, dignifies, and crowns you with loving-kindness and tender mercy; Who satisfies your mouth [your necessity and desire at your personal age and situation] with good so that your youth, renewed, is like the eagle’s [strong, overcoming, soaring]!
​

That's a whole lot of benefits that God has graciously given to us that we're instructed to not forget.

Additionally (emphasis added);

Hebrews 11:6 (AMP)
But without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out].'
​

It's nothing more than false humility to suggest that we don't really need anything from God.

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My response (above) was to JimB and not to you.

Please don't use my posts, and in twisted ways, to promote your WOF beliefs.

Simply Put said:

Truth. Also there is no example of Jesus telling someone no oh wait either.

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Theres the guy who asked Jesus to heal his daughter but had to wait while Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood and wait while she shared what had happened and wait while Jesus restored that womans standing in the community etc, then there was more travelling time - that guys daughter literally died waiting for Jesus to heal her.

Jesus could have healed the daughter then and there like He did with the Centurian but He made the guy wait, He made the daughter wait. I find that interesting.

Nice ending though of course the daughter was healed but not straightaway. Sometimes its good for us to wait. God's timing is always perfect. Praise God