Aren't we all physically ill?

[JimB]

This is for discussion, not debate. (No hand grenades, please).

Why do we make physical healing such a big deal? It seems to occupy more attention in this forum than almost anything else. Granted, it makes a good show on the weekend but it is really needed at the hospital and nursing home.

When you think about it, we are all “sick” to one extent or another. None of us are what we used to be. Even the “healthiest” among us carry germs, bacteria, viruses in our bodies; we all lose our vision; gain weight; develop heart arrhythmia; our hair thins and falls out; we gray, wrinkle, and lose our teeth; our hearing fails; our immune system needs tweaked; we develop diabetes, arthritis; we can no longer run as fast or as far as we used to, nor lift what we used to, nor stay awake as long as we want … in short, we age and, eventually … we die. “When Elisha was in his last illness, he died and was buried” (2 Kings 13).

IMO, aging is the one inevitable (and incurable) physical ailment that affects us all. Thank God, he has provided an antidote for it—heaven, where we will be given an new incorruptible, immortal body—but we have to wait for it. In the meantime, “we groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body” (Romans 8.23). The same goes for any physical illness.

God may, and often does, provide immediate relief from an acute illness but regardless, we remain physically “ill” at some level. All healing is, at best, temporary. As John Wimber said, “Healing is just patch-up work on worn-out machinery.” We should be thankful that God frequently provides relief for us in this life when we are feeling the effects of growing older (and we should be thankfully that he is so gracious), but even at our best we are all physically ill. It is just a matter of degrees.

 

[JimB]

Question:

Scripture says, "Is any sick among you?" What constitutes "sickness" and "wellness"?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I just want to add, I think the major issue with the concentration on healing and the like in the Church is that it shows where our attention lies. We are more interested in seeing a healing or miracle, than we are in really knowing God. To know Him truly is the greatest thing a man or woman can strive for and achieve, and it is granted only to a few, because only those few really seek Him with all their heart. I say when the Church stops desiring only the miraculous and sets themselves to wait on the Lord to know Him we will experience a great revival/renewal.

 

[Messy]

No, by His stripes we're all healed!
Al Furey calls it lying symptoms.

 

[louise sheinholtz]

This is for discussion, not debate. (No hand grenades, please).

Why do we make physical healing such a big deal? It seems to occupy more attention in this forum than almost anything else. Granted, it makes a good show on the weekend but it is really needed at the hospital and nursing home.

When you think about it, we are all “sick” to one extent or another. None of us are what we used to be. Even the “healthiest” among us carry germs, bacteria, viruses in our bodies; we all lose our vision; gain weight; develop heart arrhythmia; our hair thins and falls out; we gray, wrinkle, and lose our teeth; our hearing fails; our immune system needs tweaked; we develop diabetes, arthritis; we can no longer run as fast or as far as we used to, nor lift what we used to, nor stay awake as long as we want … in short, we age and, eventually … we die. “When Elisha was in his last illness, he died and was buried” (2 Kings 13).

IMO, aging is the one inevitable (and incurable) physical ailment that affects us all. Thank God, he has provided an antidote for it—heaven, where we will be given an new incorruptible, immortal body—but we have to wait for it. In the meantime, “we groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body” (Roamns 8.12). The same goes for any physical illness.

God may, and often does, provide immediate relief from an acute illness but regardless, we remain physically “ill” at some level. All healing is, at best, temporary. As John Wimber said, “Healing is just patch-up work on worn-out machinery.” We should be thankful that God frequently provides relief for us in this life when we are feeling the effects of growing older (and we should be thankfully that he is so gracious), but even at our best we are all physically ill. It is just a matter of degrees.

Most illnesses are caused by stress, The mind can cause illness if too stressed. Most doctors do not take that into consideration when they are too quick to medicate the person with drugs that can be even more dangerous than the illness.

In other words the world is mentally ill. LOL
There is no feeling of effects of growing older if we accept it graciously and not go to do all sorts of things to keep us young that are unnatural.
I don't feel old as long as my mind remains young.
In other words it's all in the mind.LOL

 

[JimB]

I just want to add, I think the major issue with the concentration on healing and the like in the Church is that it shows where our attention lies. We are more interested in seeing a healing or miracle, than we are in really knowing God. To know Him truly is the greatest thing a man or woman can strive for and achieve, and it is granted only to a few, because only those few really seek Him with all their heart. I say when the Church stops desiring only the miraculous and sets themselves to wait on the Lord to know Him we will experience a great revival/renewal.

Plus, healing is a self-centered thing—what God can do for me. It has little to do with what I can do for God. Someone once asked me, “If God never did another thing for you, would you still serve him?” That is ludicrous, of course, since every breath I take is a gift from God, but I knew what he meant. Would I serve God if there were no perks—no answers to prayer, no healing, no heaven? Would I serve him for just his sake alone? How much am I a believer for his sake or for my own? Am I a Christian for what I can get out of it or for what I can give? Made me think? Still does?

 

[Watchman4hm]

When we care more about blessing God and drawing near to him we "might" see healing...But what HE wants is to commune with dead folk who want to see HIS face!!

 

[Messy]

Plus, healing is a self-centered thing—what God can do for me. It has little to do with what I can do for God. Someone once asked me, “If God never did another thing for you, would you still serve him?” That is ludicrous, of course, since every breath I take is a gift from God, but I knew what he meant. Would I serve God if there were no perks—no answers to prayer, no healing, no heaven? Would I serve him for just his sake alone? How much am I a believer for his sake or for my own? Am I a Christian for what I can get out of it or for what I can give? Made me think? Still does?

Well Smith Wigglesworth concentrated on both and healing was to get the harvest in too, it was not for himself. Serving Him is nr. one, it's not good to only walk after the signs and see that as most important, they'll follow us, but you can serve Him by laying your hands on the sick.

 

[JimB]

No, by His stripes we're all healed!
Al Furey calls it lying symptoms.

Al Furey (?) is wrong, Messy. He’s just trying to make illness fit his theology. That’s eisegesis. I call it “if-it-don’t-fit-force-it” theology. Symptoms are real, God-given indicators that something is wrong in our bodies--they are not "lying," they are real.

On the other hand, exogesis looks at the biblical (not man’s) commentary on Isaiah 53.5: and the only other reference and explanation of “stripes” is in 1 Peter 2. Here’s the reference in context:

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 “Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; 23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
​

I’ve read Peter’s interpretation of Isaiah 53 a hundred times and have yet to find a single reference to “physical” healing in it.

 

[Hetta]

As a now middle-aged (wow the shock of it) woman, I find myself to be in pretty good health, despite some OA and a generally more achy body. I keep myself in shape by running, doing yoga and eating selectively.

Why do we make physical healing such a big deal? It seems to occupy more attention in this forum than almost anything else. Granted, it makes a good show on the weekend but it is really needed at the hospital and nursing home.

I consider it important to take care of the body that God has given me. It is the temple of the Holy Spirit, correct? Well, I want my 'temple' to be an outward manifestation of the inward blessing, and that doesn't mean dyeing my greys or putting cream on my wrinkles (although I do that), it means listening to my body and training it and keeping it so that it lasts my whole life.

I also believe that God gifted us with medicine and healing, and to turn my back on it would be foolish.

I don't feel particularly "physically ill" - perhaps I need to check back in 10 years. I feel strong and healthy, and I'm grateful for these blessings and grateful for however much longer I have to feel that way.

 

[Optimax]

Isa 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. KJV

The word griefs is OT:2483 and is translated sickness, disease and griefs.

( choliy (khol-ee'); from OT:2470; malady, anxiety, calamity:

KJV - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word is used 24 times in the OT and is translated grief only four times.

Two of those times in Isa 53:3 & 4.

Young’s Literal Translations says;

Isa 53:3-4
3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
YLT

Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. KJV

We also saw that those who believe the report are those to whom the arm or power of the Lord is revealed.

Remember Isaiah, looking forward several hundred years is seeing what is taking place in the spirit.

Matthew and Peter looking back at the cross confirmed what Isaiah prophecied.

Matt 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. KJV

Peter also spoke and confirmed and said “by whose stripes ye were healed”.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. KJV

It is the Holy Spirit that revealed to Isaiah what Jesus would do in the spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit that revealed to Matthew and Peter what Jesus did in the spirit.

Same Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit revealed to Isaiah that Jesus bore our sickness, carried our pain and by His stripes we are healed.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Matthew that Jesus bore our sickness.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Peter that by the stripes of Jesus we were healed.

Peter said were because we were healed when Jesus received the stripes.

If we were healed, then we are healed and we can say correctly by his stripes I am healed!

 

[Messy]

Al Furey (?) is wrong, Messy. He’s just trying to make illness fit his theology. That’s eisegesis. I call it “if-it-don’t-fit-force-it” theology. Symptoms are real, God-given indicators that something is wrong in our bodies--they are not "lying," they are real.

On the other hand, exogesis looks at the biblical (not man’s) commentary on Isaiah 53.5: and the only other reference and explanation of “stripes” is in 1 Peter 2. Here’s the reference in context:

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 “Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; 23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
​

I’ve read Peter’s interpretation of Isaiah 53 a hundred times and have yet to find a single reference to “physical” healing in it.

Oh well, I just believed it and got healed. I''ll never forget that preaching.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

When we care more about blessing God and drawing near to him we "might" see healing...But what HE wants is to commune with dead folk who want to see HIS face!!

 

[Yitzchak]

One reason why we emphasize it so much is because the scripture emphasizes it so much. God seems to have an interest in the subject. I would say that trumps any reasoning we come up with to say that it is overdone or generated by impure human motives. Also the scripture records many examples of healing and even crowds being brought to Jesus for healing all without any rebuke of their obsession with healing.
One thing I will grant you though is the crowds which came to Jesus for healing did not seem to expect to escape the normal wear and tear our bodies take. They came with serious illness and disease.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Plus, healing is a self-centered thing—what God can do for me. It has little to do with what I can do for God.

By your reasoning, so is salvation

And to answer your OP

No, I'm not sick. Healthy as a horse actually

If I am not mistaken you think aging is a sickness. Am I correct in that?

 

[JimB]

Isa 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. KJV

The word griefs is OT:2483 and is translated sickness, disease and griefs.

( choliy (khol-ee'); from OT:2470; malady, anxiety, calamity:

KJV - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word is used 24 times in the OT and is translated grief only four times.

Two of those times in Isa 53:3 & 4.

Young’s Literal Translations says;

Isa 53:3-4
3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
YLT

Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. KJV

We also saw that those who believe the report are those to whom the arm or power of the Lord is revealed.

Remember Isaiah, looking forward several hundred years is seeing what is taking place in the spirit.

Matthew and Peter looking back at the cross confirmed what Isaiah prophecied.

Matt 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. KJV

Peter also spoke and confirmed and said “by whose stripes ye were healed”.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. KJV

It is the Holy Spirit that revealed to Isaiah what Jesus would do in the spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit that revealed to Matthew and Peter what Jesus did in the spirit.

Same Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit revealed to Isaiah that Jesus bore our sickness, carried our pain and by His stripes we are healed.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Matthew that Jesus bore our sickness.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Peter that by the stripes of Jesus we were healed.

Peter said were because we were healed when Jesus received the stripes.

If we were healed, then we are healed and we can say correctly by his stripes I am healed!

I know, I know (we have been here before ), but regardless of the correct interpretation of “grief” and “sorrow” in Isaiah 53.4, the “stripes” in vs. 5 were not for physical illness and healing, at least not according to Simon Peter, who IMO is a much more qualified interpreter of Isaiah than any televangelist.

As for the reference in Matt. 8, all this says is that Christ’s miraculous healings and deliverance from demons was biblical proof of his Messiahship. The phrase “as it was written/spoken” appears no less than ten times in Matthew because it was his task to prove to Jewish hearers/readers that Jesus was Messiah “according” to Scripture, IOW that Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy.

Here’s the passage:

"When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses.” (Matt. 8.16-17)
​

Thus proving he was a fulfillment of Messianic scripture.

I guess we read into the text what we want to be there.

 

[Faulty]

This is for discussion, not debate. (No hand grenades, please).

I wish you well on that.

 

[probinson]

Plus, healing is a self-centered thing—what God can do for me. It has little to do with what I can do for God. Someone once asked me, “If God never did another thing for you, would you still serve him?” That is ludicrous, of course, since every breath I take is a gift from God, but I knew what he meant. Would I serve God if there were no perks—no answers to prayer, no healing, no heaven? Would I serve him for just his sake alone? How much am I a believer for his sake or for my own? Am I a Christian for what I can get out of it or for what I can give? Made me think? Still does?

FTR, almost no one in this forum was talking about healing until you brought it up (again) to rehash all of the exact same arguments you've been making for years. Just to set the record straight.

But since you brought it up (again), I'll answer it (again).

The above question is foolish and steeped in pride. It essentially says, "I have no need of God". The idea that you serve God for His sake alone might sound super spiritual and give you a twitch in your gizzard when you think about how much you don't need from God, but you might as well re-write the old hymn to say "Great is MY faithfulness".

I mean, an eternity spent in heaven is the thing God thought was important enough to sacrifice His only begotten Son for us, and this question flippantly calls it a "perk".

I NEED everything God provides for me. I NEED His Love. I NEED His peace. I NEED His grace. I NEED His healing. I NEED His forgiveness. And He offers all of that and so much more to us because He Loves us, because He cares for us. I wouldn't want to be the one that flippantly and irreverently calls all of God's gifts and blessings to us "perks"


I am so thankful that God remains faithful even when I don't.

The question above should make us think; It should make us realize that it's remarkably foolish to suggest that we need don't need His benefits. In fact, scripture tells us to not forget His benefits. Scripture even goes so far as to say that to be pleasing to God, we must believe that He REWARDS those who diligently seek Him.

Maybe some people are so wonderful all on their own that they don't need any of that, and they can rely on their own faithfulness. Ballyhoo for them. But I NEED my Father; everything that He IS and everything that He DOES. Without Him, I am nothing.

 

[Optimax]

I know, I know (we have been here before ), but regardless of the correct interpretation of “grief” and “sorrow” in Isaiah 53.4, the “stripes” in vs. 5 were not for physical illness and healing, at least not according to Simon Peter, who IMO is a much more qualified interpreter of Isaiah than any televangelist.

As for the reference in Matt. 8, all this says is that Christ’s miraculous healings and deliverance from demons was biblical proof of his Messiahship. The phrase “as it was written/spoken” appears no less than ten times in Matthew because it was his task to prove to Jewish hearers/readers that Jesus was Messiah “according” to Scripture, IOW that Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy.

Here’s the passage:

"When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses.” (Matt. 8.16-17)
​

Thus proving he was a fulfillment of Messianic scripture.

I guess we read into the text what we want to be there.

Then Isa 53:1 must be dealt with!

Isa 53:1
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? KJV

The arm of the Lord (power of the Lord) is revealed to those that believe the report.

Those that believe are healed by his stripes!

Those who do not believe the report are not!

 

[mourningdove~]

Question:

Scripture says, "Is any sick among you?"

What constitutes "sickness" and "wellness"?

Bottom line?
To me:

wellness = peace, in the storm and out.

"You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You."
~ Isaiah 26:3