Are you still saved if you believe in the wrong things about Jesus?

[ananda]

So someone lied to them - there are more bad guys out there than good guys (you should know already, right?) .
If you don't know Jesus, everything can be scary.
If you do know Jesus, nothing is scary.

Are you suggesting that reading the Bible's stories about death, destruction and eternal damnation means "someone lied to them"?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'll let you figure this one out.
If you believe that , what you say, then you won't be able to on your own.
As long as you rebel against Yahweh's Mercy and Grace and His Son Jesus,
I cannot do anything to help you as far as I know, except pray for you, if Yahweh permits. This might not help, but it may be the only thing in your favor, should you ever decide to turn to the truth to accept it.

Are you suggesting that reading the Bible's stories about death, destruction and eternal damnation means "someone lied to them"?

 

[ananda]

I'll let you figure this one out.
If you believe that , what you say, then you won't be able to on your own.

I was merely sharing an observation & what others have told me.

As long as you rebel against Yahweh's Mercy and Grace and His Son Jesus,
I cannot do anything to help you as far as I know, except pray for you, if Yahweh permits. This might not help, but it may be the only thing in your favor, should you ever decide to turn to the truth to accept it.

Perhaps it is because of Jesus, I've found the truth of Buddha-Dhamma .

 

[hedrick]

OK ... for you, it sounds like it boils down to mere trust ... in something ...

FYI, this is a traditional Protestant view. The Reformers understood faith as meaning primarily trust. In Christ, obviously, for Christians.

It's when you get beyond Christians that things get difficult. Since Paul used Abraham as an example of faith, at least for him trust in God was enough.

There is in Eastern theology (and a lot of Western) this idea that God tells us the way to go to find him, but he doesn't set limits on his right to reach out to people who don't go the right way.

 

[hedrick]

To get back to my OP, my question is more geared towards the how much must one believe, rather than the what must one believe.

But if Jesus was teaching a Way, and not a set of doctrines, the question may not even make sense.

 

[ananda]

But if Jesus was teaching a Way, and not a set of doctrines, the question may not even make sense.

What's the "Way"?

 

[RDKirk]

Is someone saved if they believe in 1-3 but deny 4?

You mean they deny that they need a mediator? Saying they can get to God on their own?

 

[hedrick]

What's the "Way"?

The term “way” is Biblical. It is used in enough contexts to have lots of overtones. But the primary meaning when I use it is way of life. It implies a journey, which means it’s not something you just flip a switch to get.

Jesus primary concept of a Christian is a follower or a disciple. For him I think it was your orientation, the direction you are headed.

Obviously following Jesus has some cognitive content. You have to know about Jesus to follow him, and he taught things about the way, and about his Father. But a lot of it is about how you live: what your priorities are, how you treat others, spiritual practices.

What if you don’t have all the content right? Non-Christian ways have varying degrees of overlap with Christian ones. I am not saying that everyone ends up in the same place. I very much fear that they do not. I think, rather, that in the end we will find that the ways take us to one of two possible destinations: God and destruction.

Knowing where you’re going has obvious advantages. But as I said in the previous posting, God in his grace can certainly arrange to find people who are lost. There are many people who it seems to me are on paths similar enough to mine that I think they’ll end up the same place.

One of the challenges for me as a Christian is that I think many non-Christian paths are actually closer to the way of Jesus than many Christian ones.

I believe this position is similar to the current Catholic one, by the way.

 

[ananda]

You mean they deny that they need a mediator? Saying they can get to God on their own?

Sure.

 

[ananda]

The term “way” is Biblical. It is used in enough contexts to have lots of overtones. But the primary meaning when I use it is way of life. It implies a journey, which means it’s not something you just flip a switch to get.

Jesus primary concept of a Christian is a follower or a disciple. For him I think it was your orientation, the direction you are headed.

Obviously following Jesus has some cognitive content. You have to know about Jesus to follow him, and he taught things about the way, and about his Father. But a lot of it is about how you live: what your priorities are, how you treat others, spiritual practices.

What if you don’t have all the content right? Non-Christian ways have varying degrees of overlap with Christian ones. I am not saying that everyone ends up in the same place. I very much fear that they do not. I think, rather, that in the end we will find that the ways take us to one of two possible destinations: God and destruction.

Knowing where you’re going has obvious advantages. But as I said in the previous posting, God in his grace can certainly arrange to find people who are lost. There are many people who it seems to me are on paths similar enough to mine that I think they’ll end up the same place.

One of the challenges for me as a Christian is that I think many non-Christian paths are actually closer to the way of Jesus than many Christian ones.

I believe this position is similar to the current Catholic one, by the way.

Surely you must believe in the way before embarking upon it, or at least convinced of it's efficacy.

The "Way" is also a concept in early Buddhism. Our "Way" can be characterized in this fashion:

Observation of a teacher who practices and embodies the Way & demonstrates the Goal, leads to faith in the teacher's message, leads to learning & understanding the teacher's message, leads to desire for the Way, leads to exertion & practice on the Way & direct knowledge of the Way's efficacy.

All of the Way must be believed in through reasoning & observation (e.g. after observing its efficacy in a teacher) in order to even begin generating faith which fuels the rest of the practice of the Way.

 

[JackRT]

Surely you must believe in the way before embarking upon it, or at least convinced of it's efficacy.

The "Way" is also a concept in early Buddhism. Our "Way" can be characterized in this fashion:

Observation of a teacher who practices and embodies the Way & demonstrates the Goal, leads to faith in the teacher's message, leads to learning & understanding the teacher's message, leads to desire for the Way, leads to exertion & practice on the Way & direct knowledge of the Way's efficacy.

All of the Way must be believed in through reasoning & observation (e.g. after observing its efficacy in a teacher) in order to even begin generating faith which fuels the rest of the practice of the Way.

That is Way cool.

 

[Chriliman]

Surely you must believe in the way before embarking upon it, or at least convinced of it's efficacy.

The "Way" is also a concept in early Buddhism. Our "Way" can be characterized in this fashion:

Observation of a teacher who practices and embodies the Way & demonstrates the Goal, leads to faith in the teacher's message, leads to learning & understanding the teacher's message, leads to desire for the Way, leads to exertion & practice on the Way & direct knowledge of the Way's efficacy.

All of the Way must be believed in through reasoning & observation (e.g. after observing its efficacy in a teacher) in order to even begin generating faith which fuels the rest of the practice of the Way.

The question is: what is the point of the “way”? What does the “way” accomplish?

I have a feeling your answer will be very similar to what Jesus says is the point, which is abundantly good and peaceful life.

 

[ananda]

The question is: what is the point of the “way”? What does the “way” accomplish?

I have a feeling your answer will be very similar to what Jesus says is the point, which is abundantly good and peaceful life.

Practice of the Buddhist Way progressively unveils increasing degrees of peacefulness, which is said to lead to the ultimate, enduring peace - parinibbana.

 

[hedrick]

Practice of the Buddhist Way progressively unveils increasing degrees of peacefulness, which is said to lead to the ultimate, enduring peace - parinibbana.

While peace is certainly one thing Jesus brings, his primary goal was the bring the Kingdom of God. That's more a community than a matter of individual peace, though individual peace is there. It's about our relationships with each other.

 

[ananda]

While peace is certainly one thing Jesus brings, his primary goal was the bring the Kingdom of God. That's more a community than a matter of individual peace, though individual peace is there. It's about our relationships with each other.

Are not relationships ultimately cultivated for the sense of satisfaction it brings to the individuals involved?

 

[Chriliman]

Are not relationships ultimately cultivated for the sense of satisfaction it brings to the individuals involved?

In most cases yes, but when it comes to loving our enemies, it’s not easy because we have to deny ourselves in a sense and only do what might benefit them.

 

[RDKirk]

Are not relationships ultimately cultivated for the sense of satisfaction it brings to the individuals involved?

The "ultimate sense of satisfaction" may not have anything to do with the character of the relationship itself.

I might have been ordered to work closely with someone I detest. My "ultimate sense of satisfaction" may be only the successful result of the collaboration. At the end of the day, I may not detest him any less.

 

[hedrick]

Are not relationships ultimately cultivated for the sense of satisfaction it brings to the individuals involved?

Yes and no. Obviously it's more pleasant to live in a world where people are good to each other. But satisfaction isn't always sufficient motivation when it's more difficult, e.g. in dealing with someone bullying you, or someone who has hurt you. Nor does it always seem to motivate people to do things that are going to help others (or our politics would be a lot different).

So Jesus said it is also our duty to God, who after all had treated us a lot better than we deserve. Paul testified that spiritual experience of Christ could regenerate us to inspire us in this.

 

[ananda]

In most cases yes, but when it comes to loving our enemies, it’s not easy because we have to deny ourselves in a sense and only do what might benefit them.

I see "loving your enemies" as a way of consciously manipulating one's mind to substituting a more skillful emotion (e.g. love) for unskillful emotions (bitterness/anger/etc).

 

[ananda]

The "ultimate sense of satisfaction" may not have anything to do with the character of the relationship itself.

I might have been ordered to work closely with someone I detest. My "ultimate sense of satisfaction" may be only the successful result of the collaboration. At the end of the day, I may not detest him any less.

IMO if one values one's job (for example) over detesting a coworker, then it still leads to a sense of satisfaction to work with the detestable coworker.