Are you saved?

greatdivide46 said:

The way I understand the Augustinian/Calvinist view of original sin is this: Adam's sin had two devasting spiritual consequences for the entire human race. First, every baby is born in a state of total depravity or bondage of the will. In other words, his spiritual nature is so corrupted that his free will is gone, and he grows up with a total inability to come to faith and repentance in response to the gospel call. Second, every child is born guilty and condemned to hell, to which He will go unless the grace of God sovereignly intervenes. As J. O. Buswell, Jr. says, "All men naturally descending from Adam, without exception, are guilty sinners, lost, judicially under the wrath and curse of God." He declares, "I became a wicked guilty sinner in the Garden of Eden."

I don't believe that.

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You should believe it, because Paul teaches it in Romans 7. Observe:

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Let me break this passage into parts my friend, to show you that Paul is teaching that people are guilty for sin for being in Adam.

First, is the obvious. Paul says Adam "was a type of the one to come" (this version says "a pattern"). The "one to come" is Christ. So Christ is a "pattern" of Adam or a "type" of Adam.

What does Paul mean? Well, Adam represents everyone who is "in him", and Christ represents everyone who is "in Him". So, if a person is "in Adam", they are found guilty. If a person is "In Christ" they are found innocent. The reason Adam represents us is because you and I would have done the exact same thing that Adam did. So Adam's response to temptation and sin in the Garden is pretty much every human being's response, too.

Now notice that Paul says that sin was in the world before the law was given to Moses, however, sin is not held against people when there is no law. In other words, since the law was not yet given, how can people be held accountable for breaking the law? That's Paul's point. Sin is not counted where there is no law.

However, despite this, Paul says "NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam to Moses" In otherwords, the wages of sin is death, yet sin is not counted when there is no law. The law came from Moses. However, nevertheless, paul says, people still were DYING before Moses came to give the law (they were dying between Adam and Moses)

Paul's point is that they they experiencing the wages of sin (death), because though their own sin is not held accountable (since there is no law), they are still guilty for sin because they are in Adam.

Long story short: People were dying before the law was given because they are guilty for Adam's sin. Paul says they aren't guilty for their own personal sins, because sin is not counted when there is no law. Nevertheless, they still died, because they are in Adam.

Skala said:

You should believe it, because Paul teaches it in Romans 7. Observe:

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

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Just a minor point: This passage is actually in Romans 5, not Romans 7.

But one's view of original sin doesn't really matter because Paul's main point in this passage (Romans 5:12-19) is that whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ. Make the legacy of Adam as dire as you wish. The whole point of the passage is that Christ's "one act of righteousness" (5:18) has completely intercepted, nullified, negated, cancelled, and counteracted whatever was destined to be ours because of Adam. All the potential spiritual consequences of Adam's sin are intercepted even before they can be applied. The only consequence that actually takes effect is physical death, and it is countered with the promise of resurrection to eternal life.

JoeyArnold said:

What happens to innocent or guilty babies if they die? Heaven or Hell?

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What you have to remember when using Rm. 5 as a proof text, Paul gives us the “because” in Rm. 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

The reason death comes to all people is because all sin and not just because Adam sinned.

Also as has been stated many times “all” does not always mean every human and Paul could just be referring to mature adults (that is whom the scriptures address).

Death is not “punishment” in and of itself, it is part of the new much better system we have, which Adam and Eve did not have prior to death.

Whats up my precious brothers in CHRIST JESUS! LORD please set us all free from the spiritual immaturity of doctrinal differences, O Holy Spirit please give us the POWER OF YOUR LOVE IN THE FATHER THROUGH CHRIST JESUS YOUR SON.That we may truly learn to "LOVE" one another THEREBY! IN CHRIST JESUS NAME AMEN...
Prophecy being fulfilled on many "Christian" sites such as this one:
- Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
- Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Signs of spiritual immaturity:

-1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul;{I am of Calvin} and another, I am of Apollos;{I am of Arminius} are ye not carnal?

- are ye not carnal?
Yes LORD, i have been a carnal wretch many times in these forums. Please wash me forever clean BY THE ALMIGHTY POWER OF YOUR HOLY WORD,HOLY BLOOD,AND HOLY SPIRIT LIVING WITHIN me. O LORD...may YOU show us a better way IN CHRIST JESUS AMEN:
-1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
These are some serious things i believe we should all be thinking about.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


Blessings...
SC

JoeyArnold said:

Romans 5:12. Agreed. Babies might be kind of innocent.

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Babies are not saved, but are in a safe condition until they sin. The problem is if they die they will not complete their earthly objective (obtaining and growing Godly type Love), so would only have a wonderful but lesser form love (child to wonderful parent).

JoeyArnold said:

Romans 5:12. Agreed. Babies might be kind of innocent.

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<sarcasm> Yeah, everything babies do is from faith in God. </sarcasm>

JoeyArnold said:

I believe God gives babies the choice to choose or reject Christ.

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How could a new born or a baby not yet born make such a choice?


Is this some magical decision process?


Mature adults have a real choice of humbly accepting God’s Charity (give up fighting and surrender) or continuing to seek the perceived pleasures of sin (continue to fight God to the death). How does an innocent baby fight God and why would the perceived pleasures of sin be a temptation alternative for a baby to young top sin?

JoeyArnold said:

An aborted baby travels through a tunnel.

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Where does this idea come from?

Where is the Babies choice in all this?

JoeyArnold said:

An aborted baby travels through a tunnel.

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You trollin brah~

JoeyArnold said:

Does God let babies die & then sends them to Hell?

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Not the God I know.

bling said:

Not the God I know.

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So all babies go to heaven, in your view bling?

On what basis?

1) They are innocent and righteous, therefore go to heaven because God owes it to them

2) They are sinners and guilty, but God bestows mercy on them

Which is it?

Skala said:

So all babies go to heaven, in your view bling?

On what basis?

1) They are innocent and righteous, therefore go to heaven because God owes it to them

2) They are sinners and guilty, but God bestows mercy on them

Which is it?

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Actually is because they are innocent and God bestows mercy on them, therefore they go to heaven because God loves them.

Then I guess our most merciful action would be to murder all babies to guarantee their eternal life. That makes abortion the ultimate mercy.

Groan.