Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

eleos1954

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Without him, we dont want to do it. Not wanting to do as he teaches, is the very reason some reject getting saved.

I find myself here ....

Romans 7

Struggling with Sin

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17 In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
 
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Kenny'sID

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As in the last part of the scripture you cited:

How do you define serving the law of sin? How do you carry that out?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Unfortunately many here (not me) would say you have lost your salvation. Those who have obtained sinless perfection. Of course they overlook that LYING is a sin and so is Self-Righteousness and Judging others.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Stone-n-Steel

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So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

Eph. 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I like this snippet from scripture. Later in 2:8-10 there is another good place to look.

It would be best to seek scripture that was addressed to us today. Jesus himself said while he was in the "flesh" that he came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Later when they rejected him Paul presented a ministry for everyone on equal terms.
 
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d taylor

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Salvation is a free gift, however we can lose it by acting like the devil.

"Here ya go, son, here is $100,000 to use in your old age, its a free gift. Son goes out and spends it on wine women and song, and now he has lost his free gift."

Money is not Eternal like Life
 
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Francis Drake

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Shame on you for twisting scripture, he was clearly both dead and lost to his father
Shame on you for taking it out of its obvious context.
“But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
To comprehend what is being taught here, the above parable must read in the context of the two immediately preceding parables of which it is part.
The Lost Sheep.
Luke15v3And He spoke to them this parable, saying, 4“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, and having lost one of them, does not leave the ninety nine in the open field, and go after the one having been lost, until he finds it? 5And having found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6And having come to the house, he calls together the friends and the neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep, the one having been lost!’ 7I say to you that in the same way there will be joy in heaven over one sinner repenting, rather than over ninety nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance.
The question here is, when that sheep was lost, who did it belong to? Did it belong to a neighbour, the Philistines, or a wolf maybe?
The lost sheep was owned by none of the above. Despite being misplaced, that sheep never ceased belonging to the owner of the flock.

The Parable of the Lost Coin
8Or what woman having ten drachmas, if she should lose one drachma, does not light a lamp and sweep the house, and seek carefully until she finds it? 9And having found it, she calls together the friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the drachma that I lost.’ 10Thus I say to you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner repenting.”
Again the question is, when that coin was lost, who did it belong to? Again the answer is that the coin, despite being misplaced, never ceased belonging to that women.

And then we come to the third story in that trilogy, the story of the lost son, taught to emphasise the very same principle, that the son always belonged to the father, even when out of sight.
To grasp exactly what the father meant when he says "this son of mine was dead", you only have to read a few words further along to read, "he was LOST and now is FOUND"
24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’
Just so you fully understand, being dead was a metaphor for being lost, as ALL THREE PARABLE MAKE SUPER ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!

And of course, we know from the story itself that despite being hungry and in a foreign country, the son was never actually dead, but very much alive.

If Jesus really wanted us to believe that going out of fellowship meant losing your salvation, he would never have included it with the lost sheep or the lost coin!
DNA? lol! we all have God's dna, even the unsaved. What a frail attempt at changing the meaning of the bible, but if I've said it once I've said it several times, changing the word is the only way to make your end of this work.
Goodness me, you really don't understand the English language do you.
God's DNA was meant to be a metaphor. If you want to deny having God's spiritual DNA within you, that's fine, but then you are on the wrong section, and should stick to the none Christian areas of the forum.
And I never said the unsaved had God's DNA!
 
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Soyeong

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The new birth changes you into an obedient lover of God who cannot live a life of sin. But acting saved is not salvation.

If our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do something, then why is doing that something through faith not part of salvation?
 
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Der Alte

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Luke 8:12
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 7:50
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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d taylor

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So? That takes nothing from the analogy.

A person can not spend out Eternal Life like a person can money.

Never Thirst

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
 
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Kenny'sID

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The question here is, when that sheep was lost, who did it belong to?

Are you kidding me. Lets try this, lost = lost, and saved = saved, lost, lost, saved, saved, and so on. If we are lost, we aren't saved, and if we are saved, we aren't lost. Keep repeating that and be enlightened

Geez.

Would you like me to get into the other term there..."Dead", as in doesn't exist?
 
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eleos1954

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As in the last part of the scripture you cited:
How do you define serving the law of sin? How do you carry that out?

Sin is transgression of the law ... the law is not sinful ... the law is good and holy .... I am by human nature bent towards sin.

I serve the law of sin when my reliance and focus (my mind) is not on Him.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death

2 Corinthians 4:16
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

Thank you Jesus for all that you do! Amen.
 
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Kenny'sID

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A person can not spend out Eternal Life like a person can money.

Never Thirst

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

If you choose to find away to make the analogy not work for you, that is completly expected, so have at it.

To me, it made perfect sense.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Sin is transgression of the law ... the law is not sinful ... the law is good and holy .... I am by human nature bent towards sin.

I serve the law of sin when my reliance and focus (my mind) is not on Him.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death

2 Corinthians 4:16
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

Thank you Jesus for all that you do! Amen.

What is it exactly are you disagreeing with? When you just post scripture for the most part with no aparent disagreement, I'm not certian what to do with it.
 
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chad kincham

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Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

Neither.

Romans 10:17 states how faith comes - it comes by hearing the word of God.

The Holy Spirit, who is the one who draws us to Christ, sufficiently enlightens those who hear the word of God, enough to believe.

Once we have faith, we have freewill to either reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel did John 1:11, or to receive Jesus, and become a child of God John 1:12.

Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.

Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.

Yet though they were Gods own elect, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.

So we have freewill.

We have freewill because the Holy Spirit, who gives faith to those who hear, and who draws us to Jesus, can be resisted.

Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained HOW they were able to reject and kill Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.

Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).

So salvation requires not only faith that comes from hearing the word, but requires making the freewill choice to receive Jesus, John 1:12, or to resist the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51, and reject Jesus John 1:11.

Shalom.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm going to have to go with neither.

Here is what I confess and believe:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves.

Learn, then, to understand this article most clearly. If you are asked: What do you mean by the words: I believe in the Holy Ghost? you can answer: I believe that the Holy Ghost makes me holy, as His name implies. But whereby does He accomplish this, or what are His method and means to this end? Answer: By the Christian Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. For, in the first place, He has a peculiar congregation in the world, which is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God, which He reveals and preaches, [and through which] He illumines and enkindles hearts, that they understand, accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it.
" - The Large Catechism, Section II, Article II, 38-42

That is, the finished and perfect work of Christ is the objective justification of all men (Romans 5:18) and thus that which has saved me. This is made mine by the work of the Holy Spirit who creates faith in me--which is the work and gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)--through which the all-sufficient, finished, and perfect work of Christ is appropriated to me, that I might therefore believe and benefit of all which He has done. This is mine, apart from myself, by the grace of God alone. The Holy Spirit accomplishes this through the Means of Grace which God Himself has instituted, namely the preaching of the Word and the Holy Sacraments.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Francis Drake

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Are you kidding me. Lets try this, lost = lost, and saved = saved, lost, lost, saved, saved, and so on. If we are lost, we aren't saved, and if we are saved, we aren't lost. Keep repeating that and be enlightened

Geez.

Would you like me to get into the other term there..."Dead", as in doesn't exist?
If new birth can be lost so instantly because of sin, I presume you get lost and saved countless times a day or week then.
Me, I'm simply resting in Jesus, knowing that my eternal status depends on his blood, not my perfection.
 
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Dave L

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Neither.

Romans 10:17 states how faith comes - it comes by hearing the word of God.

The Holy Spirit, who is the one who draws us to Christ, sufficiently enlightens those who hear the word of God, enough to believe.

Once we have faith, we have freewill to either reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel did John 1:11, or to receive Jesus, and become a child of God John 1:12.

Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.

Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.

Yet though they were Gods own elect, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.

So we have freewill.

We have freewill because the Holy Spirit, who gives faith to those who hear, and who draws us to Jesus, can be resisted.

Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained HOW they were able to reject and kill Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.

Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).

So salvation requires not only faith that comes from hearing the word, but requires making the freewill choice to receive Jesus, John 1:12, or to resist the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51, and reject Jesus John 1:11.

Shalom.
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So you believe because God saved you.
 
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Dave L

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If our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do something, then why is doing that something through faith not part of salvation?
You must believe (be saved) or you would not repent.
 
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