Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
It plain says the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.
Do you agree?
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
It also says at the coming of Lord, which is the Day of the Lord the wicked are destroyed.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:3
These three things are clearly taught by Paul, to the Church about His coming:
- The Resurrection of the dead in Christ
- The Rapture
- The destruction of the wicked
JLB
Those who are present believers in Jesus the Christ at the time of the removal of the Church (rapture) will receive glorified bodies.These were the saints that Jesus took to heaven with him.
These were contained in paradise in the heart of the earth, called Abraham’s Bosom.
The resurrection of the dead is when we all receive our glorified bodies like Jesus.
JLB
If you read the verse above carefully.I guess not, as I'm not familiar with what you are describing. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We know our body is in the ground because we put them there, so what could go to the Father, but our spirit. Paul also said that when Jesus returns He will bring with Him the dead Christians. Not to be confused with the theory that Jesus returns with the live Christians from some secret rapture. There is no mention of the living being in heaven waiting for the second coming. Only the dead.
1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
If you read the verse above carefully.
"...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."
The dead are asleep in Jesus not in the heavens arriving with Jesus.
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
One return, one resurrection of everyone, one judgement of the evil.
Forgot about that subset of people.It plainly says "when Jesus RETURNS, He will BRING WITH HIM those who are asleep. Where is Jesus now? That is where these spirits are for Him to be able to "bring with Him" those who are asleep.
The spirits of the dead that Jesus brings with Him will be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection. This verse proves that when we die, our spirit returns to the Father, and Jesus will bring them back with Him to be resurrected.
I don't know where you get there is only one resurrection. There is one before the millennium and one after. Read this and see for yourself.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
First and foremost....doesn't say it.I will not jump of this with all four feet (lol) but will say, You need to read Rev from a literal, historical and grammatical hermeneutics. If you did you would see we are not even to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week nor have we passed it by according to the scripture in Rev. 6:8, the 4th Horseman: It tells us that 1/4 of the earth's population will die........That would be 1.4 Billion People....I don't recall the newspapers telling us about 1.4 billion people suddenly dying???? Have you seen that yet? Then in the Trumpet Judgements, another 1/3 of the population will die. Another 1.5 Billion people (give or take a few) and then in the Bowls, it is untold to us how many will die but the Sea will certainly all be dead. This alone will starve many people whose dinner plate relies on the Sea.
Make no mistake, we are not living in the Millennium. Revelation is real and it will happen. Are you ready?
Blade
Blade
Why do you keep using the word fiction? Rapture doctrine is not based on a movie.The SDA church believes in the Trinity. The Second Coming of Christ is AFTER the Great Tribulation, not before. That's just the way it is in scripture, not fiction or movies.
No judgment, just straight to hell? Wow. Not a secret? If it's unexpected, how can it not be a secret? No prior knowledge would be secret.I'm not SDA. The first place I heard "secret rapture" is on the forums. And not by an Adventist. It's a common phrase for the pre-trib. rapture, even used by those who promote it. But when Jesus comes "every eye shall see Him." It won't be secret, only unexpected by unbelievers who will be caught unaware as a thief in the night, and who will be "taken" and thrown into the lake of fire.
The book of Revelation was not "a prophecy of scripture" at the time of the writing of I Peter. (AD 63) But Daniel was. Revelation was written AD 95.Hi brother Lost4words, it is interesting when you look at the Books of Daniel and Revelation. As 2 PETER says..
2 PETER 1:19-21
[19], We have also a more sure word of prophecy; to which you do well that you take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20], Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of one's own interpretation. [21], For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures interpret themselves and tell you what their meaning is.
I beleive that both the books of DANIEL and REVELATION should be read together with the rest of God's WORD but to answer your question, I believe that the book of REVELATION is both literal and symbolic but those symbols are defined in God's WORD, with the scripture defining scripture and revealing the meaning of what those symbols represent.
God bless
Rats, I missed it! What's next?Revelation 1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
Not 1,000s of years away i believe.
This is a doctrinal house of cards.Continuing with the OP. We have seen that the MARK OF THE BEAST comes from both the UNFAITHFUL WOMAN called BABYLON which represents an UNFAITHFUL CHURCH (not the people in the Church) and the BEAST that enforces it which HARLOT WOMAN BABYLON sits. *REVELATION 13.
This section is a scripture word study on SIGN, SEAL AND MARK before we look at what the MARK OF THE BEAST is.
Q9 WHAT ARE THE SYMBOLS AND MEANING OF SIGN, SEAL AND MARK?
JESUS when quoting the two great commentments of LOVE to GOD and LOVE to man from Matthew 22:26-40 is quoting from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures found in DEUTERONOMY 6:5 and LEVITICUS 19:18 and finishes by saying v40 "ON THESE TWO COMMENTMENTS OF LOVE to GOD and LOVE to MAN HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets.
If we go bact to DEUTERONOMY 6:5-8 we find somthing interesting in v8..
DEUTERONOMY 6:5-8
5, And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6, And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7, And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shall talk of them when thou sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when thou rises up. 8, And you shall bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as front lets between thine eyes.
The Hebrew word for “sign” is Strong's H226 אות'ôth; oth; which also means Mark. The first four commandments of the 10 commandments represent our Love duty to God (Exodus 20:1-11) and how we worship him. Did you notice where love and obedience to God is a sign or mark of worship through love to God which is bound to the hand and between the frontlets of our eyes?
Let's look at the Hebrew words "frontlets" (H2903) and "between thine eyes" (H5869)
"frontlets" (H2903) טופפה; ṭôphâphâh; to-faw-faw' means; to bind ; in the forehead
"between thine eyes" (H5869) עין; ‛ayin; ah'-yin; means (many meanings but some mean) to think about, favour, to see, sight, knowledge
So verse 8 is talking about summing up the first 4 commandments of the 10 which is our love and duty of worship to God as being the "Mark of God" which is placed where? In the forehead and in the hand..... The same scriptures in Deuteronomy 6 can be read as;
Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might (seen as the first four commandment to God (Exodus 20:1-11) 8, And you shall bind them for a “Mark” upon thine hand, and forehead. This is the Mark of God. God’s Mark is Love with the fruit of obedience. To love him with all the heart and have no other God’s before him, love will not make idols of anything on earth and serve them, love will not use God’s name in vain and love will remember God’s Sabbath day to keep it Holy. These are the Mark of Sign of the believers of those who follow God.
Now let’s compare this with …. (SIGN= MARK=SEAL mean the same)
EZEKIEL 20:11-12
[11], And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12, Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a SIGN <H226; same word for “MARK”> between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
So in our duty to Love God as demonstrated in Deuteronomy 6:5-8 and demonstrated through obedience to the first four commandments (Exodus 20:1-11), God’s Mark is bound to his people on their hand and forehead showing that His people believe and worship the only true God of creation of which the 7th Day Sabbath is also a sign or “Mark”. We should be clear here that the only commandments from God’s Law that God describes as being his SIGN or “MARK” is in our duty of worship and love to the creator.This links back to REVELATIONS 14:7-12 where we read the MARK OF THE BEAST IS LINKED TO WORSHIP.
God’s people marked or sealed for protection…
EZEKIEL 9:1-11
[1] He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
[2] And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
[3] And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
[4] And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
[8] And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
[9] Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
[10] And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
[11] And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.
Now remember the Beast of Revelations also has a mark that we are warned against receiving? (Revelation 13:16; 14:8:11). This is called the “MARK OF THE BEAST”. Anyone who receives this mark is in danger of receiving the judgements of God. We are warned not to receive this mark because it will affect our salvation and standing with God.
God’s people receive God’s mark of protection in the last days…
REVELATION 7:4-10
4, And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5, Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6, Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7, Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8, Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9, After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10, And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
The SEAL= GOD'S MARK
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew & Thayer Greek Definitions - G4972
Σφραγίζω; sphragizō Thayer Definition:
1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
1d1a) of a written document
1d1b) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4972
Σφραγίζω; sphragizō; sfrag-id'-zo
From G4973; to stamp with a signet or private mark for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
So there is God's Mark which is a SIGN of Love and obedience and worship to God and a Beasts Mark that we are warned against receiving or we will receive God's Judgements (Revelations 14:8-11). This warning not to receive the Beasts Mark is proceeded with the warning that Babylon the great, also identified as the great harlot that sits on the beast, is fallen with a call for God's People to come out of her (Revelations 14:8). The call to come out of Babylon is then once again repeated in Revelation 18:1-10 but this time Babylon is described in more detail in Revelations 17:1-7; 18:1-10
So it is important to understand who Babylon is because it has a connection to the beast and its Mark that we are warned against receiving (Revelations 14:8-11; 17:1-18) and God is calling his people out before it receives his judgements.
There is actually a lot to take in here but letting the bible interpret itself let’s see what God’s Word says the following symbols represent?
..............
SOME SYMBOLS DEFINED IN GOD'S WORD SO FAR.
*WOMAN PURE = God's people faithful (Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27)
*WOMAN harlot = God's people unfaithful to God fornicator, adulteress, unfaithful or false religion (Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9; Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hosea 2:5; 3:1; Revelations 14:4)
*MOTHER OF HARLOTS = Gives birth to unfaithful or false religion offspring and children just like the Mother
*BEAST = Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:17; 23; Proverbs 28:15)
*HORN OF A BEAST= A king or ruler that arise out of the Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:24; 8:5; 21-22; Zechariah 1:18-19; Revelations 17:12)
*SCARLET COLOR = sin (Isaiah 1:18)
*HAND = To act out or to do action (Ecclesiastes 9:10; Acts 4:28 etc)
*FOREHAND = To believe or think (Ezekiel 3:8-9; Jeremiah 3:3 see also word meanings)
*MARK/SEAL/SIGN = is BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD or NOT BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD (Revelation 14:7-12; 7:4-10
Deuteronomy 6:8; Ezekiel 20:11-12; Ezekiel 9:1-11)
..............
Let's put it all together.....
Babylon the Great harlot = a world-wide unfaithful Church that is unfaithful to God or does not follow God’s Word. It is a mother of harlots meaning other unfaithful Churches have come out of this mother of Churches. Let’s make something clear before we continue. God has his people in every Church, even the unfaithful fallen Churches as seen in Revelations 18:4. He is calling them to come out of these Churches because they are not teaching people to follow God’s Word. Jesus also says; Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (John 10:16). Because the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24)
God's Mark is a mark of love and worship to God seen as the fruit of obedience to Gods Law *REVELATION 14:12. It is applied to the hand and the forehead representing believing and doing. It is sin that is disobedience to God’s Word and it is sin and nothing more that all to receive God’s judgements.
The beast which represents a nation or kingdom will have power to make laws under punishment of death to force all to break God’s Law. This is the ONLY time anyone can receive the MARK OF THE BEAST when it is forced upon mankind under law.
We receive it in the hand by following or doing the beast’s law or we receive it in the forehead by believing and following this law over the Word of God or breaking God’s Law (Revelation 13:15-16). Everyone has the choice to choose for themselves whether they receive this mark or not and those that do follow the beast, receive the judgements of God (Revelation 14:9-11).
The beast (KINGDOM) is seen being ridden by a harlot Woman (unfaithful, mother of Christian Churches) also called Babylon that God has some of his people in who are warned to come out of unless of these organisations unless they receive the plague of God (Revelations 18:4).
All through time from Genesis to Revelations God's judgements have only ever been given to mankind because of sin. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodom so shall it be at the coming of the son of man. Sin is the transgression of God's Law and the wages of sin is death which is the penalty of sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23). Therefore just as the Mark of God in the hand and forehead represents love and worship to God seen as the fruit of obedience to Gods Law (10 commandments), the Mark of the beast will be over forced disobedience to God's Law of Love. The Mark of the beast does not affect anyone until it is forced upon mankind by the beast (Revelations 13:15-18). However, if we are living in sin now we are not following God or know him and need to repent and seek him for forgiveness through faith in His Word.
After the warning about receiving the mark of the beast is proclaimed a description of God’s people is proclaimed…
REVELATION 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Further descriptions of God’s people are also described throughout the book of Revelations….
REVELATION 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
REVELATION 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
God’s people keep all of God’s commandments through faith in his promises to save them from their sins. He gives them his Spirit so that they can follow him in love and obedience. God’s Word say that if we break one of God’s commandments we are guilty before God of breaking all of His Law (James 2:8-12).
This includes the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is God's 4th Commandment that God has commanded his people to follow which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-11)
Just as God’s Mark or sign to His people is demonstrated through worship and love to him through the first four commandments. The Mark of the Beast will be loyalty to the beast through breaking God’s Law which is sin against God. Those that follow the Beast do not follow God and will be in danger of receiving God’s judgements.
Those that receive the Mark of the Beast are those that through disobedience and living in sin do not know God and refuse his love and invitation of Grace and salvation… Who will you choose?
God’s sheep hear his voice…
Dave, the mark is indeed literal. Those without it will not be able to buy or sell. On what basis do you claim otherwise? (sorry if you already answered this)People have had the mark of the beast since the first century. Even in America today we can see it. And know what to expect in the future. Hint, the mark is not literal. It represents a mind set and allegiance to totalitarian Antichrist laws and governments.
This only applies to the creation of Adam. Were you created that way? (nope) What do you make of this?Remember
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
No mention of a spirit. Just dust + breath of life = a living soul
This is a doctrinal house of cards.
For starters, the Sabbath sign is for the Israelites alone.
And the mark of the beast is an actual physical mark. The NT Greek word is charagma. Without which no one could buy or sell. Clearly not a day of the week.
5480 charagma
from the same as carax - charax 5482; a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):--graven, mark.
Revelation 13:16-17
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
And the mark of the beast is an actual physical mark. The NT Greek word is charagma. Without which no one could buy or sell. Clearly not a day of the week.
5480 charagma
from the same as carax - charax 5482; a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):--graven, mark.
Revelation 13:16-17
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
You have it backwards. Not that I am surprised. Par for the course. You can't expand a Tribulation happening backwards into our timeframe and make claims of this sort. Sunday is not the mark of the Beast.Steve, where has anyone ever said that the mark may not have a physical application for buying and selling?
Post # 193 linked click me is talking about a comparison between the HEBREW AND GREEK scripture definitions of MARK and SEAL and their application in SERVITUDE or SERVING GOD or NOT SERVING GOD.
Now the same application can be also used in the looking at the GREEK word for MARK which is χάραγμα charagma which means; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp as a badge of servitude, or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.
This was shown in detail in the HEBREW and GREEK scriptures and word meanings of MARK AND SEAL for following God and not following God in post # 193 linked click me.
Hop this helps.
Revelation is full of symbols that picture certain conditions. If we look for the symbols to appear, it will never happen. Green horses, Satan bound with physical chains. Red Dragons etc. But if we look for what the pictures illustrate, we can see the mark throughout history. Today and we can see it looming in certain world conditions. If you cannot buy or sell, or even be put to death without it , when in history has this happened? It happened with Nero, the Protestant creeds nearly all say the Papacy was Antichrist. And we saw the mark recently when the Obama administration put christian businesses under for not complying with sinful laws.Dave, the mark is indeed literal. Those without it will not be able to buy or sell. On what basis do you claim otherwise? (sorry if you already answered this)
Revelation 13:16-17
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
That's an interesting view. Thanks. Do you believe that there will be no historical Antichrist figure, or literal Mark of the Beast in the end times? (yet to come)Revelation is full of symbols that picture certain conditions. If we look for the symbols to appear, it will never happen. Green horses, Satan bound with physical chains. Red Dragons etc. But if we look for what the pictures illustrate, we can see the mark throughout history. Today and we can see it looming in certain world conditions. If you cannot buy or sell, or even be put to death without it , when in history has this happened? It happened with Nero, the Protestant creeds nearly all say the Papacy was Antichrist. And we saw the mark recently when the Obama administration put christian businesses under for not complying with sinful laws.
I need to be careful how I phrase this for obvious reasons. But to nearly all Protestants (see their creeds), the Papacy became the culprit from the 10th century on. And received a deadly wound in the French Revolution, now apparently healed. Also Islam remained suspect to both Luther and Calvin among others.That's an interesting view. Thanks. Do you believe that there will be no historical Antichrist figure, or literal Mark of the Beast in the end times? (yet to come)
I absolutely agree regarding the last 3 points.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?