Are you pro mutilation or anti mutilation?

Uberbeliever · Jan 24, 2007

I still stand on behalf of the baby, no matter what. And if you really want to theorize, think about this. I try to look for the good in all people and all things. Perhaps the child concieved in the rape is actually a test of the woman's true faith. Raising the child could actually make the woman a better person, don't you think?

I think you people should look toward the source of this issue, which is very complex, instead of persecuting me. Someone earlier mentioned about "education". Well, I've got some "educating" to do myself...

FACT: Due to overdeveloping, elephants are losing their natural habitat and losing touch with their own community. The young bulls are now beginning to step out of line and attacking humans, and raping other species of animals, primarily rhinos. Yes, you heard it right! These animals are being driven out of their natural habitat and are not being controlled by the older, wiser elders. You cannot deny fact, you can look it up if you don't believe me. The exact same principle can be applied to how we brought the slaves over from Africa.

LittleNipper · Jan 24, 2007

kopilo said:
(This is set up as a parallel thread), minus the lack of tolerance and respect for others' view on the topic.

Are you for women having non clinical abortions (belly punches, slipping down the stairs, back door operations, etc) or for them having clinical abortions?

I believe in sterilization for women who do not want children and want to have sex without marriage. That would solve four problems.

1) clinical abortion
2) non-clinical abortions
3) unwanted babies
4) over population

Uberbeliever · Jan 24, 2007

I never said slavery was a good thing. Where did you even see that? I said it was part of the problem we have today. You need to re-read that last paragraph before calling me a racist. Christian-bashing in a Christian forum is NOT something I anticipated here.

Uberbeliever · Jan 24, 2007

Yes, I see they are bashing me in specific-as it would appear. They actually are bashing me as a Christian Baptist, therefore they are bashing Christians in general, which is persecution.
I didn't expect to have my values criticized in such an abrasive manner, but there you have it.

RealityCheck · Jan 24, 2007

LittleNipper said:
I believe in sterilization for women who do not want children and want to have sex without marriage. That would solve four problems.

1) clinical abortion
2) non-clinical abortions
3) unwanted babies
4) over population

But LittleNipper! Wouldn't that be thwarting God's Will? I mean, if a woman isn't willing to have children, but God wants her to have children, then forcing sterilization on her would be sin!

Oh drat... out of sarcasm tags yet again...

katautumn · Jan 24, 2007

Wait...black men are the only ones who commit rape because we took them out of their "natural environment" (in other words, Africa)? So now you're not only spouting off horrendously racist rhetoric, but also excusing the actions of rapists (who, by the way, happen to be of all ethnicities, religions and social classes!) by saying they can't help it because we took them out of Africa? What is your major malfunction?

And then there's this little jewel:

And they want an answer for "ectopic" pregnancy: God's Will is God's Will. Is that good enough an answer? Of course it is. Now that I can safely say that abortion is murder under any condition including rape, ectopic, or aesthetic reasons, we can just get on with our lives and pray no one gets raped.

I don't think God wants people to neglect their personal health. Obviously faith negates common sense in your life, but I highly doubt that was God's plan for his children. Did you ever think that he put doctors here to help women who have Ecoptic pregnancies? And you say you consistently side with the baby. Fine, then you would know that in such a case there is no possible way that it will live. So you think that both woman and child should die if one can be saved while there is no chance that the other one would?

And sure, it would be nice if no one ever got raped, but it happens. Even if all of us women never went out of the house and wore burqas there would still be a risk of rape in our society. And guess what? I've been raped by two different men in my life and they were both WHITE! One was a Baptist and the other was a Catholic. Oh, and both occured in the home and I was modestly dressed. So that throws your assumptions right out the window.

PETE_ · Jan 24, 2007

kopilo said:
(This is set up as a parallel thread), minus the lack of tolerance and respect for others' view on the topic.

Are you for women having non clinical abortions (belly punches, slipping down the stairs, back door operations, etc) or for them having clinical abortions?

The first line of this thread sure is a mis-statement.

This whole idea is a false arguement. Whenever you decide there is another life involved, taking that life is wrong, no matter how humanely you take it. Method does not define murder.

People tend to enjoy this sort of pointless rhetoric instead of the science of when life begins.

katautumn · Jan 24, 2007

Belk said:
Unless you are going to try to tell us that all Christian Baptist believe women who get raped could have somehow prevented it?

I was a member of a few different Baptist churches back in the day. I found that Southern Baptist churches are more sympathetic to rape victims than Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches. Not all, but some, of your IFB churches believe that being raped is typically God's punishment for a specific sin, whether it's being a woman and being alone without the presence of a male chaperone (father, brother, husband, church elder and their family, etc.), immodest dress, going to bars, being alone in the company of a man you're not married or related to, disobeying your parents and sneaking off to a friend's house, missing church service, going to public school, etc. Many of your IFB churches here in the south are also very racist. They are adamantly opposed to interracial marriage and having bi-racial children and I've never found one around my area that has am ethnic minority congregant. *shrugs*

RealityCheck · Jan 24, 2007

KatAutumn said:
I was a member of a few different Baptist churches back in the day. I found that Southern Baptist churches are more sympathetic to rape victims than Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches. Not all, but some, of your IFB churches believe that being raped is typically God's punishment for a specific sin, whether it's being a woman and being alone without the presence of a male chaperone (father, brother, husband, church elder and their family, etc.), immodest dress, going to bars, being alone in the company of a man you're not married or related to, disobeying your parents and sneaking off to a friend's house, missing church service, going to public school, etc. Many of your IFB churches here in the south are also very racist. They are adamantly opposed to interracial marriage and having bi-racial children and I've never found one around my area that has am ethnic minority congregant. *shrugs*

Any Christian who believes that God punishes sin with physical and material punishment needs to do a serious reading of the book of Job. The whole thing, not just the easy-to-read part at the beginning and the end.

DLaurier · Jan 24, 2007

Uber, You are being "bashed" BY CHRISTIANS.
And I'll gladly buy those good christians a round at the pub.
You are being bashed because you are a monster. The fact that you are also a christian has nothing to do with it. YOU ARE A MONSTER. You are an abomination to ALL LIFE. You are too evil to be alowed outside of a cage.

Your "values" are a vile perversion of morality.
You are sick and depraved beyond all comprehension.
You and you alone have lost my compassion.

JohnLocke · Jan 24, 2007

Dear Uber,

I hope you are not as extreme in your actual thought as you portray. I hope that if you are that you mature, either in your position or at least your arguments.

I am dismayed when anyone presents as a pillar of their argument "God's will is God's will." It's is neither fair game nor terribly useful. Your attitude toward ectopic pregnancies that, according to your view, 2 deaths are better than 1, is totally at odds with your implied position of "preborn entity" rights first.

If I have mischaracterized your position, please provide what, if any circumstances the rights of the pregnant woman supercede or hold parity with those of the "preborn" for you have, as I recall, already concluded that the rights of the preborn are so superior to the pregnant that even where carrying the pregnancy to term would result in the death of the pregnant, this is to be not only tolerated and accepted, but required by force of law.

It is true that I disagree with absolutist pro-lifers as you seem to present yourself to be, but I have been able to respect their position, even while disagreeing with it, because they put forth sincerely, thoughtful, and coherent arguments for their position. I regret that your arguments do not appear especially thoughtful or coherent and that failure reflects dubiously on their sincerity.

I think, however, the original issue was whether the costs associated with "back alley" or non-clinical abortions similar to those that occurred earlier in our history are: 1) unavoidable, and 2) unconscionable even in light of whatever one's position is relative to the not-yet born.

Peace.... please?

Uberbeliever · Jan 24, 2007

Regard for the unborn is the point that I've been trying to get across all along. It wasn't my intentions for it to get this ugly, as I was just painting scenarios for everyone which may have been graphic or disturbing. But, we all should know the truth hurts. People don't like when I say "God's Will is.........God's Will". You may question His intentions or strongly disagree with them, but He will do what He wants to do. Is anyone going to try and stop Him? He gave the rapist the free will to carry out his desire to rape, and obviously God will not stop him. All I'm saying is that women should be aware of that harsh reality, and be better prepared for it.
Is raping right? Of course not!! Why anyone dares to call me an apologist is beyond me. I've been making people aware of a very cruel & unforgiving world, and no one seems to appreciate it.

Ramona · Jan 24, 2007

<staff removed quote>

In college, I lived in what could accurately be described as a "bad area" of a "bad" city. I had to walk down dark alleys to get to class, eat, visit friends, go to counseling, go shopping, and pretty much anything else your average college freshman does. Do I deserve to be raped for trying to get to class?

Oh, and I think any rape victim could refute your assertion that all rape victims were wearing revealing attire at the time they were raped.

Uberbeliever · Jan 24, 2007

Pardon me for backtracking, but what is this FSTDT thing that someone mentioned earlier? And also saying my post is a winner? Obviously some form of sarcasm. Sorry, I don't get it.

And to mumbaiXjones, NO, you don't deserve a raping! What kind of cruel sadist would wish that upon you? I sincerely hope you don't have your finger pointed at me.

Belk · Jan 24, 2007

Uberbeliever said:
Pardon me for backtracking, but what is this FSTDT thing that someone mentioned earlier? And also saying my post is a winner? Obviously some form of sarcasm. Sorry, I don't get it.

And to mumbaiXjones, NO, you don't deserve a raping! What kind of cruel sadist would wish that upon you? I sincerely hope you don't have your finger pointed at me.

It is a website

http://www.fstdt.com/

It is how I found this site actually.

SallyNow · Jan 24, 2007

<staff removed quote>

I'm going on the assumption that the above was a serious post...

An ectopic pregnancy leads to the death of both the fetus and the mother, no matter what. There is no cure, there is no way for them to both live: either just the mother lives, or they both die. There is no middle ground. The fetus will die no matter what. Is it not better to save the mother's life than allow them both to die? It is, in a sense, a matter of self-defence. A woman is defending her life against a fetus that has ended up in the wrong place. Remember: There is no middle ground. Both the woman and fetus will die, or the woman can be saved and the fetus dies.

As for the rape matter... any woman can be the victim of rape. Rapists don't prowl around dark alleys: they come over for dinner parties, they live next door, they look like any other person. Any who is ignorant enough to believe that a woman could ask a rapist to put a condom should spend some time in prison with the few rapists that actually go to jail, and discuss their crimes with them. See what they say they would do if a woman asked them to put a condom before he raped them...

If a person wants to support the pro-life movement, then support adoption. Help out middle-class, healthy couples who want to adopt but can't shell out the $20,000+ some agencies ask. Help raise awareness of the foster care system, and help change it to one that is child-centred, rather than budget-centred. Help out at the local Salvation Army soup kitchen. But don't spew hate. It's disgusting.

ARainySeptember · Jan 24, 2007

As a teacher you run across a large number of children that were "accidents" or "consequences" ....sad to say "un-wantables". As a special education teacher, the percentage of your students that fit those categories, is exponentially larger.

Its hard for me not to want a full status report on a family before they are allowed to procreate. I know that's technically impossible to do in a free world -- but in an ideal situation, could you imagine the significant betterment of the world if the people who had children were 1. smart enough to know what to do with them and 2. could provide a caring and stable home. I'm not even going to go into Christian vs. Non-Christian home, etc. I just want a generation of children that are loved and are NOT subject to the cruelties they are when they go home.

Ever heard of a school that has a problem of motivating kids to GO HOME!? I work in one.

DLaurier · Jan 24, 2007

ARainySeptember,
I am not a sensitive or nice person.
But whenever I am reminded of the attrocitys commited against children,
I have to struggle to not cry.
Please, keep on trying to help the kids.

ARainySeptember · Jan 24, 2007

Thank you so much for your encouragement. It broke my heart (I'm a first year Special Education teacher) when I had to read through their "Files" in August before I met my students. Several of them have been sexually abused -- by men the mother brought in the house! (one of them was a 10 year old BOY that was abuse), several were picked up by CPS, one of my students has parents that are constantly on Meth and he's malnurished as well...others get lucky and just get ignored. I wanted to quit, I wasn't sure I could give those kids what they needed -- I couldn't be all they needed. They didn't need me (and dont!) -- they need a psychiatrist and two grown-up parents!

Needless to say I haven't quit yet -- tho some days it breaks my heart so much I'm not sure I can make it another week.

What has this world gone to when the most innocent are not protected?

ARainySeptember · Jan 24, 2007

To try and defend Uber --- the point I'd like to take from it is, YES rape is a vile vile and evil thing and is a lie straight from Satan. But no Christian can deny that God can turn even the ugliest evet into a jewel. He can make a pearl out of a sharp piece of sand. While never justifying or promoting rape in any way -- the baby that results could be the joy of that woman's life. I have heard of many woman who continue with the pregnancy and feel as such. That their child is now their ray of sunshine or rainbow after the hurricane.

I'd never tell a woman who'd been rape what to do because I don't know myself what I would do -- but I can say, and what I'm hoping Uber means is that this child, though a result from an evil act, can still be a good thing.

Are you pro mutilation or anti mutilation?

Are you pro-life or pro-choice

pro abuse towards pregnant women?

anti abuse towards pregnant women?

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