Are You Doing Enough?

[Clizby WampusCat]

I knew this would happen. Your changing the subject again. That’s not what we were talking about. The original “why question” was why can’t we expect to receive salvation if we do not repent. Then you changed the question to “Why can’t God forgive us without punishment”. Now again we’re on a whole different question, “why do I need grace to be saved”. This conversation is going nowhere because you keep changing the subject.

You are not following, it is all the same question. But if you don't want to keep engaging then that is your decision.

 

[Hazelelponi]

No, that's not what I said at all. You don't believe in any kind of judgement in the end?

Yes there's the day of Judgement for us all. God determined a plan of salvation for sinful men, (sin and death entered the world through the trespass of one man, so too through One is our justification for our sins)

People can accept that gift freely given, or stand before God on their own merit instead of the perfect merit of the One who justifies.

 

[bling]

1. If God already knows the outcome, God is ultimately watching 're-runs'.
2. Some Christian varieties believe in 'original sin', and require baptism to be cleansed of this burden prior to possible access to Heaven. Are these Christians incorrect? If so, how do you know?
3. Many do not reach the 'age of accountability'. And furthermore, some will not ever do so; and not by their own choosing. If these humans don't, do they receive a 'free pass'? If so, does this mean 'original sin' is false, if they are not baptized prior to death?
4. All will 'sin', no matter what. 'Sin' is then ultimately arbitrary, if the doctrine to salvation is "grace by faith". All 'sin' is deemed bad. The only unforgivable 'sin' is apparently unbelief.


The rest is deemed unnecessary to address at this time...

1. It only happened once (Block Universe).
2. They are wrong. Children do not sin so are in a safe condition.
3. It is said when a child dies without fulfilling their earthly objective, but they do go to heaven without obtaining Godly type Love.
4. All sin, but it is unforgiven sins that gets a person in trouble.

 

[cvanwey]

1. It only happened once (Block Universe).
2. They are wrong. Children do not sin so are in a safe condition.
3. It is said when a child dies without fulfilling their earthly objective, but they do go to heaven without obtaining Godly type Love.
4. All sin, but it is unforgiven sins that gets a person in trouble.

1. This response does not address my observation.
2. How do you know?
3. Then the only way to guarantee Heaven, would then be to die prior to 'enlightenment.' Since most go to Hell, according to the Bible, it might be best to assure that all humans die in youth. Right?
4. As stated prior, the only unforgivable 'sin' is unbelief. If you are a believer, all will 'sin', all the way up to the point of death - regardless of whether or not they believe. Hence, 'sin' (stealing, lying, cheating, killing, etc) may appear arbitrary? Even if you ask for repentance daily, it's likely the day you die, you will die with some unrepented 'sin'. Assuming these people are still saved, it would solely be because they are believers - according to Christian doctrine.
.

 

[cvanwey]

Yes there's the day of Judgement for us all. God determined a plan of salvation for sinful men, (sin and death entered the world through the trespass of one man, so too through One is our justification for our sins)

People can accept that gift freely given, or stand before God on their own merit instead of the perfect merit of the One who justifies.

Sounds like there's very little, if anything, for God to judge. You either accept the gift, or you do not. Is this all God judges? (i.e.) - whether you accept this gift or not?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are not following, it is all the same question. But if you don't want to keep engaging then that is your decision.

1. why can’t we expect to receive salvation if we do not repent?

2. Why can’t God forgive us without punishment?

3. why do I need grace to be saved?

These are three completely different questions which require three completely different answers. They are not the same question at all.

 

[Par5]

Yes there's the day of Judgement for us all. God determined a plan of salvation for sinful men, (sin and death entered the world through the trespass of one man, so too through One is our justification for our sins)

People can accept that gift freely given, or stand before God on their own merit instead of the perfect merit of the One who justifies.

What is the evidence of his existence that surrounds us?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

1. why can’t we expect to receive salvation if we do not repent?

2. Why can’t God forgive us without punishment?

3. why do I need grace to be saved?

These are three completely different questions which require three completely different answers. They are not the same question at all.

These questions were brought up in direct rebuttal to your responses where you referenced these topics. I did not know there is a rule that we can only ask one question at a time.

 

[disciple Clint]

Why? The bible tells you to do just that. Mt 18:22. God asks you to do this but He is unwilling himself to do it.

can you fine a scripture in the Bible that has the instruction to believe people who are insincere or lying.

 

[disciple Clint]

You did not. You quoted me and then you wrote things, yes. That doesn't mean you answered anything. As I said, I'll be around if you want to have a discussion.

Dont bother.

 

[Moral Orel]

Yes there's the day of Judgement for us all. God determined a plan of salvation for sinful men, (sin and death entered the world through the trespass of one man, so too through One is our justification for our sins)

People can accept that gift freely given, or stand before God on their own merit instead of the perfect merit of the One who justifies.

Can you accept that gift and still choose to be as rotten a person as you like?

 

[Moral Orel]

Dont bother.

Okay, I tried.

 

[disciple Clint]

Okay, I tried.

correct, you are trying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

These questions were brought up in direct rebuttal to your responses where you referenced these topics. I did not know there is a rule that we can only ask one question at a time.

I never mentioned anything about people having to be punished before they can be forgiven.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I never mentioned anything about people having to be punished before they can be forgiven.

You may be right. Have a nice day. I am done.

Too many people here instead of answering a question will find fault with it or the person asking it to avoid answering it in my opinion. Waste of time.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

can you fine a scripture in the Bible that has the instruction to believe people who are insincere or lying.

I don't have to. You do. You are making this claim. Mat 18:22 says nothing about anyone motives or truthfulness. It just says to keep forgiving them.

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Where does it say only forgive others if you think they are sincere about an apology?

 

[Ophiolite]

1. why can’t we expect to receive salvation if we do not repent?

2. Why can’t God forgive us without punishment?

3. why do I need grace to be saved?

These are three completely different questions which require three completely different answers. They are not the same question at all.

I see a very close connection between these three questions from @Clizby WampusCat . They address the same question - what enables salvation? They are simply asking it from slightly different perspectives. Is this relationship not apparent to you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I see a very close connection between these three questions from @Clizby WampusCat . They address the same question - what enables salvation? They are simply asking it from slightly different perspectives. Is this relationship not apparent to you?

I hadn’t thought much about it. Seeing that the topic is the same I would expect similarities in posts from different people who share the same beliefs.

 

[bling]

1. This response does not address my observation.

I am in agreement with the Block Universe theory many scientists agree with also, with no need for God. In God’s eyes everything happened at the same time with God outside of time. This does not mean free will was not used to make free will choices. The free will choice you will make tomorrow, is part of the unchangeable history for God at the end of time, but God at the end of time also exists at the beginning of time.

2. How do you know?

Some scriptures on why I think man is born free of sin so:

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

God tells us that we do not inherit anyone's sin (Ezek. 18:20; cf. 2 Ki. 14:6). We sin after giving into temptation. We are tempted when we are carried away and enticed by our own lusts (Ja. 1:13- 15).

Then when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death (Ja. 1:

Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17) ---- we must be as infants regarding evil (1 Cor. 14:20). Therefore, babies are born without sin. If they die, they are safe, because they have no sin

Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;

you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

On you was I cast from my birth,

and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

3. Then the only way to guarantee Heaven, would then be to die prior to 'enlightenment.' Since most go to Hell, according to the Bible, it might be best to assure that all humans die in youth. Right?

Heaven is not the goal for people who would be unhappy there.

Yes, children who die without reaching the age of accountability would go to heaven, but without Godly type Love and thus have only child type love for a wonderful parent. These individual will require lots of care to protect and preserve them through eternity (a job I might have, since I did not provide them the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love while on earth).

4. As stated prior, the only unforgivable 'sin' is unbelief. If you are a believer, all will 'sin', all the way up to the point of death - regardless of whether or not they believe. Hence, 'sin' (stealing, lying, cheating, killing, etc) may appear arbitrary? Even if you ask for repentance daily, it's likely the day you die, you will die with some unrepented 'sin'. Assuming these people are still saved, it would solely be because they are believers - according to Christian doctrine.

.

Christians are given the free gift of a deed to a home in heaven, like a birthright to heaven that can not be lost (like a set of keys), stolen, deserved, earned and even God will not take it back, but we can like Esau give our birthright away. As long as we value Godly type Love (the only Love there is in heaven) then we will not give our birthright away.

It is unfortunate you have only seen people calling themselves, Christians, who are sinners to their death and not seen people who have allowed deity to lead them unquenched.

 

[cvanwey]

I am in agreement with the Block Universe theory many scientists agree with also, with no need for God. In God’s eyes everything happened at the same time with God outside of time. This does not mean free will was not used to make free will choices. The free will choice you will make tomorrow, is part of the unchangeable history for God at the end of time, but God at the end of time also exists at the beginning of time.

This response just reinforced my prior reply, in post #144:

"If God already knows the outcome, God is ultimately watching 're-runs'."

Some scriptures on why I think man is born free of sin so:

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

God tells us that we do not inherit anyone's sin (Ezek. 18:20; cf. 2 Ki. 14:6). We sin after giving into temptation. We are tempted when we are carried away and enticed by our own lusts (Ja. 1:13- 15).

Then when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death (Ja. 1:

Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17) ---- we must be as infants regarding evil (1 Cor. 14:20). Therefore, babies are born without sin. If they die, they are safe, because they have no sin

Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;

you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

On you was I cast from my birth,

and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Catholics believe in "original sin". Hence, require baptism to wash away this sin. You are effectively saying Catholics are wrong.

Heaven is not the goal for people who would be unhappy there.

I doubt hardly anyone would be happier in 'hell', as described in the NT.

Yes, children who die without reaching the age of accountability would go to heaven, but without Godly type Love and thus have only child type love for a wonderful parent. These individual will require lots of care to protect and preserve them through eternity (a job I might have, since I did not provide them the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love while on earth).

The Bible states most will apparently go to hell (Matthew 7:14). It would behoove all believers to then assure all off-spring die before enlightenment. Otherwise, it's likely many loved ones may never make it to heaven, under any circumstance.

And besides, you have absolutely no idea how Heaven actually works

Christians are given the free gift of a deed to a home in heaven, like a birthright to heaven that can not be lost (like a set of keys), stolen, deserved, earned and even God will not take it back, but we can like Esau give our birthright away. As long as we value Godly type Love (the only Love there is in heaven) then we will not give our birthright away.

Sounds like you just confirmed my prior response again. 'Sin' appears arbitrary. If you accept this free gift, you are saved. Please remember, all will 'sin', regardless of accepting this gift or not. "Sin' appears to be arbitrary in the mist of salvation. The only true 'sin' is disbelief. The rest is forgiven, as long as you take the gift.

Hence, Stalin can have a true death bed confession, accept Jesus's gift, and be saved. A doubting life-long philanthropist is apparently eternally damned.

It is unfortunate you have only seen people calling themselves, Christians, who are sinners to their death and not seen people who have allowed deity to lead them unquenched.

You have absolutely no idea who I am. Just like I do not know who you are. So please do not act like you know me