Are You Doing Enough?

[cvanwey]

Correctly accepting the “gift” of pure undeserved charity, requires humility to humbly accept pure charity as charity. You have to be a sincere beggar, begging for charity.

This does not address my point, (yet again). I will condense my point, even further, this time:

Once you graciously accept the gift, God then (absolves/pardons/offers grace) for all other sin; whether it be a little or a lot. This conclusion renders all remaining 'sin' arbitrary. (yes or no)?

Someone who realizes they have just humbly accepted all these wonderful gifts, will out of a gratitude type of Love want to please God by not sinning and God has provided them with the indwelling Holy Spirit so now they do not have to sin. As long as the indwelling Holy Spirit is not being quenched and He is participating in all your activities you cannot sin.

Sinning is not the issue, since sins can be forgiven, while unforgiven sins are a huge issue. You do not stop sinning by working hard not to sin, but by filling your life with good stuff, so you do not have time to sin.

According to you, as long as you receive the gift, all other sin is arbitrary. It's all forgiven, covered under grace, absolved, and/or pardoned.

I will ask you a very pointed question to demonstrate my case.

It is said that humans lie, on a daily basis. Whether you are a Christian or not, you will lie. Some lies are BIG, some lies are small. Some are 'white-lies'. Some are lies to help others. Some are lies to spare other's feelings. Some are lies to save others. Some are lies to protect something 'larger'. Regardless, God deems all lies a 'sin'.

Once I accept this gift, how many of these lies is He going to pardon?

A: All of them <------- HINT
B: some of them
C: none of them

Again, God is not going to take away your free will and make you into some kind of robot. Yes, God does Love those that have gone to hell (and eventual annihilation), but they refused to accept God’s help (charity) to the point they would never accept His charity, so there is nothing more God can do for them, but they can be used to help others to eventually accept God’s charity. God is not sending those He Loves to hell out of His Love for them, but out of God’s Love for others.

I would imagine many would change their mind the second they were sent to hell, Does God ever rescue any of these earnest folks, once in hell?

*********************

And furthermore, you continue to evade my basic point. Please address it this time around...

What if I setup a system, as follows:

- With me = fun!
- Not w/ me = complete suckage
- No other option(s) are available

Does the above look to encompass free will? NO! The above proposition is instead compulsory.

Just going to heaven without Godly type Love is not the objective. Obtaining Godly type Love while here on earth is the first objective, which makes you like God in heaven. This time on earth is the way for us to become like Deity. A baby that goes to heaven only has a child’s love for a wonderful parent type of love and this child can never obtain Godly type Love in a heavenly situation.

The Bible teaches degrees of punishment dependent on the offence and eventual annihilation (second death).

Yes, I want my Loved ones to go to heaven, but I also want everyone to want to be in heaven and I realize some will refuse to accept God’s charity and their refusal is not God’s fault, but also can help other to accept God’s charity. If my Loved ones do not want God’s Love, they can go on to help others want God’s Love.

First of all, I reckon the worst part of Heaven would be far better than the best part of hell, agreed?

Second of all, many young children perish. They are still in Heaven, according to you, right?

Third, if a believer truly believes that dispatching their children, prior to accountability guarantees Heaven, is it not merely altruistic to willingly endure the jail time to assure their kids are saved? (disclaimer) - the Bible states most will not go to Heaven.

The Bible tells us and it is easy to see, a person has to be a fool not to believe in a god.

So does the Qur'an.

**********************

But again, you did not address my direct response. Let me try again.

Will yourself to believe something you do not currently believe. Such as:

- The world is not spherical
- 1 +1 = 3

If you cannot do it, then you do not have the choice to believe them, right?

Do you Love God as a result of being forgiven “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”?

Well, I myself do not know He exists. Hence, it might be hard to profess love for such an agent.

But I would imagine that many do believe He exists, and many profess their love. Are they ever allowed to be rotten to others?

 

[cvanwey]

It's hard to tell you are being sincere because you seem to have a lot of negative beliefs about Christianity and your questions and comments about it tend to be very negative. I associate negativity with disingenuousness in some manner. I don't see what the purpose of atheists being here at all actually is. I feel they've already made up their mind so to speak rather than actually exploring whether or not Christianity is actually true or not. This is what I assume about you as well. You've heard, "Why so serious?" right? Well, I would change this to, "Why so negative?"

My assessment here is neither 'negative' or 'positive'. It also does not looks to be subjective, but instead an objective assessment - (void of any personal emotion).

If I love YHWH/Jesus, God will pardon all my other 'sin(s)'. I assume we agree up to here. Please take a look at one a response, for which you did not address:

Are 'Sin' and 'Works' Virtually Arbitrary?

We've already established that God offers His grace. We've also established that the only unforgivable sin is not accepting YHWH/Jesus as your gateway to Heaven. How do we know this? Well...

Person A follows the golden rule, is also an earnest philanthropist, and also hardly speaks ill of others. But, He believes in Vishnu, and rejects or even doubts this YHWH Character. Let alone, loving this Character; for which he doubts even exists.

Person B not only believes, but professes his/her devotion to YHWH, loves YHWH, repents to YHWH, and prays to YHWH. However, He/she has a heavy gambling problem. He/she also likes prostitutes, and frequently calls upon them. He/she is gay. He/she lies daily. He/she steals from the company he/she works for. etc etc etc. For person B, I would assume all can be covered, under God's grace.

But person A is hosed. Why? Not loving YHWH is not covered by God's grace.

I agree with praying FOR others, but IDK what I think of praying ON BEHALF of others. Jesus intercedes for us, but I am not sure if this should actually be a common practice in Christians themselves.

There would be little difference between "praying for others", as opposed to "on behalf of others", as I see it...

I'm sure you've heard, countless times, where a Christian will tell someone else, "I will pray for you." Regardless of whether they state they are praying for them, or on behalf of them, it's still an intercessory prayer.

And if you state God answers your faithful and basic prayers, then shouldn't He address your earnest prayer requests?

And I tried to tell you if you were praying as if you were talking to yourself, you were not praying with faith. Let me ask at what point did you feel you were talking to yourself when you were praying. Or did you ever feel like you were talking to God when praying to him? I personally don't see how someone could be a Christian and feel like they were talking to the air when praying every time they prayed. It makes it seem like you never actually believed, but you tell me you did believe, so clearly there is more to the story than just this.

You are begging the question here. Tisk tisk...

I'm telling you I prayed in faith for decades. Just like you claim you do. He answers your prayers. He ignores mine. Thus, since you claim He answers your prayers, ask God to contact me.

Will you? If not, why not?

Because IDK what to do about it. If you were praying if faith, that would be one thing. But I never got the impression you actually believed you were talking to God. So IDK really what to tell you about it.

You seemed unwilling to explore the points, for which I brought up about prayer. You did not even give the point(s) a chance. Are you here to explore truth?

I'm an open book, and am here, in part, to be proven wrong about my current assessment about YHWH. Your task could be quite simple. You state God answers your prayers. In 10 seconds, this entire conversation could be over.

Or does God never contact people whom do not already believe wholeheartedly?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

My assessment here is neither 'negative' or 'positive'. It also does not looks to be subjective, but instead an objective assessment - (void of any personal emotion).

I believe you believe that. But no one is beyond bias. I have said this many time. People who think they are someone above bias, are deceiving themselves.

If I love YHWH/Jesus, God will pardon all my other 'sin(s)'. I assume we agree up to here. Please take a look at one a response, for which you did not address:

We don't agree on this. For one, you have to see your own sin before you can believe Jesus came to save you.

Are 'Sin' and 'Works' Virtually Arbitrary?

Having trouble loading the specific post. Provide the post number please.

We've already established that God offers His grace. We've also established that the only unforgivable sin is not accepting YHWH/Jesus as your gateway to Heaven. How do we know this? Well...

I am not convinced that God offers His grace equally to all. Unbelief is one understanding of the unforgivable sin. An alternative is saying a certain miracle that happened that was done by God was actually done by Satan. In this instance, you could very well believe a miracle happened, but would say it came from an evil source (Satan) rather than a Good source (God, or an angel).

Person A follows the golden rule, is also an earnest philanthropist, and also hardly speaks ill of others. But, He believes in Vishnu, and rejects or even doubts this YHWH Character. Let alone, loving this Character; for which he doubts even exists.

Person B not only believes, but professes his/her devotion to YHWH, loves YHWH, repents to YHWH, and prays to YHWH. However, He/she has a heavy gambling problem. He/she also likes prostitutes, and frequently calls upon them. He/she is gay. He/she lies daily. He/she steals from the company he/she works for. etc etc etc. For person B, I would assume all can be covered, under God's grace.

Can you point out an individual in each case? Hypotheticals are very bad at actually capturing reality.

But person A is hosed. Why? Not loving YHWH is not covered by God's grace

.

Because works do not save someone. The question to ask is if the person who believes in YHWH went from killing prostitutes to having sex with them. That would be sanctification at work in the Christians life. Without this kind of sanctification, I don't know if it is appropriate to say this person is saved. Also, there are probably very few (if any) people who call themselves Christians who would not have a problem with doing the things you listed. And if you are in what is called "willful sin" then you are in danger of going to hell regardless of what you believe. I can provide resources on what willful sinning actually is if you want to know more.

There would be little difference between "praying for others", as opposed to "on behalf of others", as I see it...

I disagree. I think praying on behalf of someone implies you are praying as if you are them. I reject that kind of prayer.

I'm sure you've heard, countless times, where a Christian will tell someone else, "I will pray for you." Regardless of whether they state they are praying for them, or on behalf of them, it's still an intercessory prayer.

Then you are going to have to decide if you think praying on behalf of someone else is the same as praying as yourself for someone else situation. I think there is a small, but significant difference in terminology here. If there is no difference, then there's no reason to give multiple definitions of the same thing.

And if you state God answers your faithful and basic prayers, then shouldn't He address your earnest prayer requests?

What makes you think he doesn't?

I'm telling you I prayed in faith for decades. Just like you claim you do. He answers your prayers. He ignores mine. Thus, since you claim He answers your prayers, ask God to contact me.

I'm still not convinced you were actually praying the same way I was because I don't feel like I am talking to myself when I am praying to God and you said that is what it was like for you.

Will you? If not, why not?

I can try and see what I think God will want me to pray about it, but that's all I can promise.

You seemed unwilling to explore the points, for which I brought up about prayer. You did not even give the point(s) a chance. Are you here to explore truth?

I'm not "unwilling" to explore the points, I just don't know what to do about them. You just want me to engage with the point by believing the same thing you do about it, which is that God doesn't answer prayers, and I'm not willing to do that.

 

[cvanwey]

I believe you believe that. But no one is beyond bias. I have said this many time. People who think they are someone above bias, are deceiving themselves.

Having doubt, due to perceived lack in evidence, especially when the claim is this extraordinary, is applying a bias?

But yes, we all have biases towards many things. Regardless of my biases, though I do not like certain people, I cannot doubt their mere existence just because I do not like them or because I do not want them to exist Unless we want to reduce all perceived 'truth' to 'solipsism'.

We don't agree on this. For one, you have to see your own sin before you can believe Jesus came to save you.

I do not agree. You can believe Jesus is the real deal, based upon the resurrection evidence alone. You can believe He rose from the dead, and is God, without addressing anything about your own 'sin'. Like Christopher Hitchens, when asked what He would do if he found out Jesus was real. He would ask Him many questions, about this and that; and likely would not worship Him.

And like I told you prior, maybe all it takes to be saved is (Mark 16:16)?.?.?

I am not convinced that God offers His grace equally to all. Unbelief is one understanding of the unforgivable sin. An alternative is saying a certain miracle that happened that was done by God was actually done by Satan. In this instance, you could very well believe a miracle happened, but would say it came from an evil source (Satan) rather than a Good source (God, or an angel).

Now we are addressing soteriology again. How are we saved? God seems not to want to offer a clear/cut answer here. Hence, you seem just as confused as I am. I understand why I'm confused. ---> I do not talk to Him.

But you do apparently. What does He tell you? Is it...?

grace alone
grace by faith
grace by faith/works
other other other

Are there levels to Heaven and hell? other other other? How much faith is enough faith?

The problem with the Bible, is that you and I can play Texas sharpshooter, and ping-pong Verses back towards one another, 'validating' our mutually exclusive positions.

God cares not to tell His followers what it takes to be saved, in a clear and precise way.

Seems quite odd, being it is such a grave topic.

Can you point out an individual in each case? Hypotheticals are very bad at actually capturing reality.

But the sad thing here, is that this is not a hypothetical Under your belief, a devout Hindu has absolutely no chance, regardless of how little they 'sin' in YHWH's eye's. This renders 'sin' arbitrary. Besides of course 'love' for the 'correct' God.

Because works do not save someone.

I know, God's grace does --- (according to you). Period. All you need to do is profess your love for Him. The rest is absolved.

I disagree. I think praying on behalf of someone implies you are praying as if you are them. I reject that kind of prayer.

Then you are going to have to decide if you think praying on behalf of someone else is the same as praying as yourself for someone else situation. I think there is a small, but significant difference in terminology here. If there is no difference, then there's no reason to give multiple definitions of the same thing.

You are trying to present a red herring argument, to avoid what I'm asking you. I care not to chase the rabbit trails.

What makes you think he doesn't?

Well, if I continue to not feel I've received contact from YWHW, I will assume, at least in this case, He doesn't.

I'm still not convinced you were actually praying the same way I was because I don't feel like I am talking to myself when I am praying to God and you said that is what it was like for you.

I'm still not convinced there is a God whom addresses yours. I guess we shall see, as soon you pray; by asking God to contact me.

I can try and see what I think God will want me to pray about it, but that's all I can promise.

All of a sudden, you do not seem so confident? Why is that?

I'm not "unwilling" to explore the points, I just don't know what to do about them. You just want me to engage with the point by believing the same thing you do about it, which is that God doesn't answer prayers, and I'm not willing to do that.

Why not? I do not think there exists a God to answer prayers. Seems as though you can make a believer out of me quite quickly. Or do you not care to provide truth, especially when asked?

I ask you again:

Does God never contact people whom do not already believe wholeheartedly?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Having doubt, due to perceived lack in evidence, especially when the claim is this extraordinary, is applying a bias?

No, but I don't think that is what you are doing. I think you DON'T believe in God, not that you are having DOUBTS about it and that not believing in God colors your glasses to see things a certain way.

I do not agree. You can believe Jesus is the real deal, based upon the resurrection evidence alone. You can believe He rose from the dead, and is God, without addressing anything about your own 'sin'. Like Christopher Hitchens, when asked what He would do if he found out Jesus was real. He would ask Him many questions, about this and that; and likely would not worship Him.

Because Hitchens has thought about it enough to know he doesn't WANT Christianity to be true. So it's natural that people argue against things that they don't want to be true, because they are biased, but this doesn't actually say anything about what is true.

And like I told you prior, maybe all it takes to be saved is (Mark 16:16)?.?.?

The problem is that Jesus also said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". What this means is that at the very least, belief entails other things besides just merely believing.

It also says in Mark 1:8 "I [John the baptizer] have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Now we are addressing soteriology again. How are we saved? God seems not to want to offer a clear/cut answer here. Hence, you seem just as confused as I am. I understand why I'm confused. ---> I do not talk to Him.

Just because I hold a certain position on soteriology does not mean I am confused. That is a bias you seem to have about things.

From my PoV, some are saved because God chooses to have mercy on some.

But you do apparently. What does He tell you? Is it...?

Would you believe me even if I told you? Not sure what you are asking me here.

grace alone
grace by faith
grace by faith/works
other other other

Not sure what this list is for. If you are wondering where I put myself in this list, it would probably be between 2 and 3. But that is only what salvation is from my perspective and not from God's.

Are there levels to Heaven and hell? other other other? How much faith is enough faith?

Seems to be the case that there are different levels of hell, but I'm no expert on this. Some people are annihilationists and some people believe in PGU.

The problem with the Bible, is that you and I can play Texas sharpshooter, and ping-pong Verses back towards one another, 'validating' our mutually exclusive positions.

God cares not to tell His followers what it takes to be saved, in a clear and precise way.

Seems quite odd, being it is such a grave topic.

You seem to have a real ax to grind with this.

But the sad thing here, is that this is not a hypothetical Under your belief, a devout Hindu has absolutely no chance, regardless of how little they 'sin' in YHWH's eye's. This renders 'sin' arbitrary. Besides of course 'love' for the 'correct' God.

This seems to be a device for some purpose since you don't actually believe in God.

I know, God's grace does --- (according to you). Period. All you need to do is profess your love for Him. The rest is absolved.

See above. You seem to want to make me feel guilty about things. Won't work.

You are trying to present a red herring argument, to avoid what I'm asking you. I care not to chase the rabbit trails.

Is it really a red herring to care about the language of things? Aren't you kinda accusing me of something? After this I am done talking with you because you're... kinda... a jerk. Sorry to tell you that.

Well, if I continue to not feel I've received contact from YWHW, I will assume, at least in this case, He doesn't.

What do you mean by "contact?" You know what, forget I asked.

I'm still not convinced there is a God whom addresses yours. I guess we shall see, as soon you pray; by asking God to contact me.

Whatever.

All of a sudden, you do not seem so confident? Why is that?

You keep putting words in my mouth.

Why not?

Probably because God has answered my prayers.

I do not think there exists a God to answer prayers. Seems as though you can make a believer out of me quite quickly. Or do you not care to provide truth, especially when asked?

I think you are just being a jerk here, honestly.

Does God never contact people whom do not already believe wholeheartedly?

IDK what you mean by 'contact'.

Good bye.

 

[cvanwey]

No, but I don't think that is what you are doing. I think you DON'T believe in God, not that you are having DOUBTS about it and that not believing in God colors your glasses to see things a certain way.



Because Hitchens has thought about it enough to know he doesn't WANT Christianity to be true. So it's natural that people argue against things that they don't want to be true, because they are biased, but this doesn't actually say anything about what is true.



The problem is that Jesus also said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". What this means is that at the very least, belief entails other things besides just merely believing.

It also says in Mark 1:8 "I [John the baptizer] have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”



Just because I hold a certain position on soteriology does not mean I am confused. That is a bias you seem to have about things.

From my PoV, some are saved because God chooses to have mercy on some.



Would you believe me even if I told you? Not sure what you are asking me here.



Not sure what this list is for. If you are wondering where I put myself in this list, it would probably be between 2 and 3. But that is only what salvation is from my perspective and not from God's.



Seems to be the case that there are different levels of hell, but I'm no expert on this. Some people are annihilationists and some people believe in PGU.



You seem to have a real ax to grind with this.



This seems to be a device for some purpose since you don't actually believe in God.



See above. You seem to want to make me feel guilty about things. Won't work.



Is it really a red herring to care about the language of things? Aren't you kinda accusing me of something? After this I am done talking with you because you're... kinda... a jerk. Sorry to tell you that.



What do you mean by "contact?" You know what, forget I asked.



Whatever.



You keep putting words in my mouth.



Probably because God has answered my prayers.



I think you are just being a jerk here, honestly.



IDK what you mean by 'contact'.

Good bye.

Remember what I told you a while back? When you feel you are loosing an argument, you will do one of three things. 1. Insult (you have done this by calling me both a fool and a jerk). 2. Not answer the direct question posed (you ignore some of my direct questions, or act like you do not know exactly what I am asking). 3. Change the subject (You do this as well by offering a red herring).

Since it would appear you are going to give me the last word, even though you already threatened this many posts ago and did not actually follow through, this is my 'biased' conclusion about you.

You like to assert things. You cannot back up your assertions. When you are then ultimately pressed to prove your assertion(s), you do one of the three options above.

- I don't believe there exists a God. This has little to do with bias. I'm pretty sure, if God exists, He either wants me to know He exists, or He does not. He chooses. Not me.

- You missed my point about Hitchens. Hitchens would not be able to deny the existence of God.

- The Bible asserts differing ways to be saved. Ask a devout Catholic and a devout Calvinist the same question about salvation, then, get your popcorn.

- If you are a Hindu, you cannot be saved by your works, and/or your attempts of lack in sin. Hence, works and sin are arbitrary. All that matters is professing to the correct deity.

- If God answers your prayers, which you make in earnest, I would assume this also includes petitionary prayers. I've asked you to pray for God to simply introduce Himself to me, and you act like you do not know what the heck I'm talking about.

Anywho. Answer or not. You have your opinions(s) about me, I have mine about you. I've given you a very simple recipe to end this exchange. If prayer works for you, it can all be over in 10 seconds.

Which means you either do not want to, or fear that maybe the request will go unanswered --- which is quite suspect, being you state God answers your prayer requests?

I ask you again (if you are still going to engage):

Does God never contact people whom do not already believe wholeheartedly?

 

[Moral Orel]

Not if I am actually doing something about it. Do you know I am not, or are you assuming I am not?

You alluded to going out to eat once a week to treat yourself. Maybe you don't treat yourself that often, but I have good reason to believe you aren't doing everything you can, just some of what you can. And that's the point of the thread. Are you sure God is fine with folk who feel like they're just good enough, or do you think He might want you to try to be as good as you can be?

 

[JohnClay]

The following might be relevant:
1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I (Paul) am the worst.

 

[Under_the_moon]

Your name is not in the book of life from deeds. It is from a relationship with Jesus. He is the bridge and the only way. With that said the Bible talks about people who crawl into haven. Its faith and works, not one or the other.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Remember what I told you a while back? When you feel you are loosing an argument, you will do one of three things. 1. Insult (you have done this by calling me both a fool and a jerk). 2. Not answer the direct question posed (you ignore some of my direct questions, or act like you do not know exactly what I am asking). 3. Change the subject (You do this as well by offering a red herring).

1. I never said you specifically were a fool. I instead talked about what would be foolish to do. I don't remember calling you a jerk, but it's possible I did. Perhaps quote where I said this and I can apologies as necessary.
2. If I've ignored your questions, I must have had a pretty good reason for doing so. I generally answer questions given to me unless there is a good reason not to.
3. I think you might think is a red herring might actually just be an explanation. Please quote where I have done this and how it is a red herring and get back to me on this.

You like to assert things. You cannot back up your assertions. When you are then ultimately pressed to prove your assertion(s), you do one of the three options above.

Yes, I generally assert things at the get go and assume if people want to know what I actually think, that they will ask me about my perspective. I haven't see you ask me about my perspective. I've seen you give me ultimatums on what must be the case if so and so and I've disagreed with your conclusions. That might be a reason for 2.

- I don't believe there exists a God. This has little to do with bias. I'm pretty sure, if God exists, He either wants me to know He exists, or He does not. He chooses. Not me.

He's given you a mountain of evidence in Apologetics to help show you he is there. If you reject this evidence, then it's not that God isn't showing you he is there, but rather, you don't think he is there because he doesn't show you he is there in the way you personally want him to. There's a distinction there I hope you can see. let me say it this way in the form of a story.

There was a man who was on top of his house in a flood. He asked God to save him. So a boat comes by and the people on the boat say they are there to bring him to safety. He tells them to move on because God is going to save him miraculously. So the guy prays that God will save him as the flood levels rise. A helicopter comes by and calls to him that they are there to save him. The guy tells them to move on because God is going to save him miraculously. The guy prays to God that He would save him as the flood levels rise. A high tech airplane that can stall in mid air comes by and tells him they are there to save him. He tells them to move on because God is going to answer his prayer miraculously. Then the flood levels rise and the man dies. When he meets God, he says, "Why didn't you answer my prayers?" God says, "What are you talking about? I sent a boat, a helicopter, and a high tech plane to save you."

- You missed my point about Hitchens. Hitchens would not be able to deny the existence of God.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't deny the existence of God, just that he couldn't do so rationally.

Here's a verse that describes this same thing that we are talking about with Hitchens:

Acts 9:22-23 "But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ. When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him,"

- The Bible asserts differing ways to be saved. Ask a devout Catholic and a devout Calvinist the same question about salvation, then, get your popcorn.

No, theologies are different on how to be saved, the Bible doesn't actually give different ways we can be saved. There's One Way to be saved which ALL Christians affirm, whether Catholic or Calvinist, or Non-Denominational, or anything else and that is by the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

- If you are a Hindu, you cannot be saved by your works, and/or your attempts of lack in sin. Hence, works and sin are arbitrary. All that matters is professing to the correct deity.

But if you have faith, you WILL have works, and you WILL become less sinful as a result of being saved. And these Good works are the things that Christ looks at when he determines what our rewards will be in the new heavens and new earth. So our Good works are the basis of our rewards, which means they are not "arbitrary" at all. You could make a case our SINS become arbitrary, but not our Good works.

- If God answers your prayers, which you make in earnest, I would assume this also includes petitionary prayers. I've asked you to pray for God to simply introduce Himself to me, and you act like you do not know what the heck I'm talking about.

That's not what I said. I said I can see what I think God wants me to pray about it, which is different then me not knowing what you are talking about. The answer I got from God, is to try and change my attitude toward you, take you off ignore, and try and be reasonable with you and detailed in my responses to you.

Anywho. Answer or not. You have your opinions(s) about me, I have mine about you. I've given you a very simple recipe to end this exchange. If prayer works for you, it can all be over in 10 seconds.

God hasn't told me to pray for your salvation. God HAS told me to try and be logical toward you and explain myself better.

Which means you either do not want to, or fear that maybe the request will go unanswered --- which is quite suspect, being you state God answers your prayer requests?

God answers my prayers given I am praying what He wants me to pray. I can't just pray for anything and God will answer my prayers like a genie. Whether God answers my prayers or not is contingent on me praying what He wants me to pray, not on what I personally want to pray about. And I try and be sensitive to what God wants me to pray. Some Christians don't even think about praying what God wants them to pray, but instead just pray whatever they want to pray about. That would be the reason I would have on why God doesn't answer many of Christians prayers.

I ask you again (if you are still going to engage):

Does God never contact people whom do not already believe wholeheartedly?

What do you mean by "contact"?

 

[cvanwey]

Please note, I'm not going to address every single response here... I would like to steer this discussion exclusively back to the reason the thread was started.

He's given you a mountain of evidence in Apologetics to help show you he is there. If you reject this evidence, then it's not that God isn't showing you he is there, but rather, you don't think he is there because he doesn't show you he is there in the way you personally want him to.

Apologetics could very well exist, just the same, regardless of if there exists a God or not. I'm addressing the apologist and his/her arguments, not with what I perceive as God directly.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't deny the existence of God, just that he couldn't do so rationally.

Mr. Hitchens would not deny the existence of God, but it sounds like Mr. Hitchens would decline His offered 'gift.' Maybe I would not?

No, theologies are different on how to be saved, the Bible doesn't actually give different ways we can be saved. There's One Way to be saved which ALL Christians affirm, whether Catholic or Calvinist, or Non-Denominational, or anything else and that is by the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

Great. Maybe you can finally settle this ongoing debate.

Under the claims of Christianity, are humans saved by:

- grace alone (all are now saved)
- grace by "faith"
- grace by "works"
- grace by "faith" and "works" combined
- other (please clarify, if you select this option)

Logically, you can only pick one...

But if you have faith, you WILL have works, and you WILL become less sinful as a result of being saved. And these Good works are the things that Christ looks at when he determines what our rewards will be in the new heavens and new earth. So our Good works are the basis of our rewards, which means they are not "arbitrary" at all. You could make a case our SINS become arbitrary, but not our Good works.

Yes, 'sins' are arbitrary, under the planted Christian flag. Please remember what I brought up about the topic of lies, in a prior response. I trust you agree God deems a lie a 'sin'? We all lie, for many many many reasons.

Is a "faithful Christian", whom lies, any different than an "atheist", whom lies? The answer looks to be virtually no. The only fundamental difference, in this case, is God will absolve the faithful Christian's lies - (and every other sin outside lack in 'love'), and not the atheist's lies/other. Why? Because the atheist does not acknowledge Him. The Christian may or may not lie more often than the atheist. But it does not matter either way. God's grace saves the faithful Christian. The atheist is doomed, unless (s)he is no longer an atheist, just for starters.

That's not what I said. I said I can see what I think God wants me to pray about it, which is different then me not knowing what you are talking about. The answer I got from God, is to try and change my attitude toward you, take you off ignore, and try and be reasonable with you and detailed in my responses to you.

How do you know it was God whom told you to do any of this?

Please ask if God can introduce Himself to me. On one extreme, I will be a follower, like you, On the another, I will be like Mr. Hitchens, and reject Him. I'm willing to take that gamble, especially since doubting His mere existence is already landing me into 'hell' anyways.

God hasn't told me to pray for your salvation. God HAS told me to try and be logical toward you and explain myself better.

Well, I'm again politely asking if you can pray for God to introduce Himself to me, in a way I can know He at least exists. Are you going to? I do not see this as an unreasonable question, do you?

God answers my prayers given I am praying what He wants me to pray. I can't just pray for anything and God will answer my prayers like a genie. Whether God answers my prayers or not is contingent on me praying what He wants me to pray, not on what I personally want to pray about. And I try and be sensitive to what God wants me to pray. Some Christians don't even think about praying what God wants them to pray, but instead just pray whatever they want to pray about. That would be the reason I would have on why God doesn't answer many of Christians prayers.

Then your prayers too look arbitrary.

- Either God only answers the prayers you make, for which He was already going to do anyways.

or...

- Your prayer(s) can change His current will for you.

I see no true third option here...?.?.?.?

 

[cvanwey]

@True Counterphobia Are you going to address post #291 above?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

@True Counterphobia Are you going to address post #291 above?

Restate the issues you are most concerned about. Further, is this an excuse to poke at Christian beliefs, or is any of it things that might convince you? If nothing I say will convince you anyways, then there's little point to me giving you an answer.

 

[cvanwey]

Restate the issues you are most concerned about. Further, is this an excuse to poke at Christian beliefs, or is any of it things that might convince you? If nothing I say will convince you anyways, then there's little point to me giving you an answer.

Please remember the purpose of this forum. It is for unbelievers to challenge the believer's faith.

I'm now doing this directly...

If God addresses your prayers, I would imagine this also includes petitionary prayers. I doubt God would deem such a request unreasonable. (i.e.) Asking God to introduce Himself to me in a way I can no longer deny His mere existence? This will not take away my free will. I can still choose to reject Him, like Mr. Hitchens stated He would. I'm willing to have this proposition placed before me as well.

I would then be utterly convinced. I'm merely asking God to come into my life. I asked Him directly for decades. He either exists, and is ignoring my requests, or, He does not exist at all. Hence, the reason I get no response. You claim God answers your prayers. I'm now asking you. Are you going to help me here?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Please remember the purpose of this forum. It is for unbelievers to challenge the believer's faith.

I'm now doing this directly...

If God addresses your prayers, I would imagine this also includes petitionary prayers. I doubt God would deem such a request unreasonable. (i.e.) Asking God to introduce Himself to me in a way I can no longer deny His mere existence? This will not take away my free will. I can still choose to reject Him, like Mr. Hitchens stated He would. I'm willing to have this proposition placed before me as well.

I would then be utterly convinced. I'm merely asking God to come into my life. I asked Him directly for decades. He either exists, and is ignoring my requests, or, He does not exist at all. Hence, the reason I get no response. You claim God answers your prayers. I'm now asking you. Are you going to help me here?

I need to know more about what you mean by "contact" as in, God "contacting" you. I don't know what this means. I can only pray God will reveal Himself to you. I cannot pray Jesus will, like, visit you in the flesh or something. Further, God often answers our prayers in ways we do not expect. So if you pray God will contact you in a very specific way, your prayer request may go unanswered. If, on the other hand, you pray God would make Himself real to you, and leave it up to God how He does that, then you will have a much better chance of God answering your prayers.

 

[cvanwey]

I need to know more about what you mean by "contact" as in, God "contacting" you. I don't know what this means. I can only pray God will reveal Himself to you. I cannot pray Jesus will, like, visit you in the flesh or something. Further, God often answers our prayers in ways we do not expect. So if you pray God will contact you in a very specific way, your prayer request may go unanswered. If, on the other hand, you pray God would make Himself real to you, and leave it up to God how He does that, then you will have a much better chance of God answering your prayers.

I've already answered this, more than once. Are you stalling here? Please pray for God to introduce Himself to me in a way I can no longer doubt He exists. Apparently, He does this for many. I'm simply asking for equal favor.

If God answers your prayers, I do not see this as an unreasonable request. If you will not do this, I will be highly suspect of your claim to faith, as actions speak louder than words. If you claim you will indeed pray for God to introduce Himself to me, and He does not, then I would question your prior assertion that God answers your prayers.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I've already answered this, more than once. Are you stalling here? Please pray for God to introduce Himself to me in a way I can no longer doubt He exists. Apparently, He does this for many. I'm simply asking for equal favor.

If God answers your prayers, I do not see this as an unreasonable request. If you will not do this, I will be highly suspect of your claim to faith, as actions speak louder than words. If you claim you will indeed pray for God to introduce Himself to me, and He does not, then I would question your prior assertion that God answers your prayers.

The problem is in the nature of your request. I can't pray that God will eliminate all shadow of any doubt in your mind that God is real. I don't even have that kind of faith. If Christians are honest with themselves, they will probably tell you they doubt from time to time. Further, doubt is not a sin. It's normal to doubt. It's what you do with your doubt that matters, not that you actually doubt in the first place. Here's a video on this (it's short):

 

[cvanwey]

The problem is in the nature of your request. I can't pray that God will eliminate all shadow of any doubt in your mind that God is real. I don't even have that kind of faith. If Christians are honest with themselves, they will probably tell you they doubt from time to time. Further, doubt is not a sin. It's normal to doubt. It's what you do with your doubt that matters, not that you actually doubt in the first place. Here's a video on this (it's short):

Okay, so you are not going to pray for me? I thought you were boasting about faith?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Okay, so you are not going to pray for me? I thought you were boasting about faith?

I have been praying for you already. I may not have prayed exactly what you want me to pray, but I have been praying about the situation.

I'm honestly frustrated by you. You don't seem to actually take into consideration what I have said and that is frustrating. You seem to just want to stick to your own way of thinking. It doesn't seem like you are critically assessing what I am saying from my perspective and just sticking to your guns. You're not changing anyway you think about things even when given valid evidence to do so.

 

[cvanwey]

I have been praying for you already. I may not have prayed exactly what you want me to pray, but I have been praying about the situation.

I'm honestly frustrated by you. You don't seem to actually take into consideration what I have said and that is frustrating. You seem to just want to stick to your own way of thinking. It doesn't seem like you are critically assessing what I am saying from my perspective and just sticking to your guns. You're not changing anyway you think about things even when given valid evidence to do so.

I appreciate the prayers. I also feel we have made some headway, in our discussions. Sorry you feel frustrated.

All though, I'm not sure there is any wrong way to pray? All I'm asking, is that if you claim prayers work for you, then I might expect your petitionary prayers to work, upon my behalf? All I ask is that you pray for God to introduce Himself to me, in a way I can no longer deny His mere existence.

If I never receive such an inquiry from God, does this mean God does not answer your prayers?