Are You Doing Enough?

[cvanwey]

I'm going to give you the opportunity to ask some different questions before blocking you.

You're move.

Do as you will. Answer them or not. I'm merely following up with the many assertions you make.

 

[All Becomes New]

Do as you will. Answer them or not. I'm merely following up with the many assertions you make.

I'd like to know what comments you have to add about my assertions.

 

[All Becomes New]

I assure you I'm no 'beginner' I've been to many churches in my day

(black) How do you know this?

(red) How does God determine what He reveals to each individual? And how do you know?

Because Jesus says the last shall be first and the first shall be last and He is talking about rewards in heaven as it pertains to your service to him. Since Jesus was the greatest servant, He is most exalted.

I do not know how God determines what He reveals to each individual. No one knows the mind of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[cvanwey]

I'd like to know what comments you have to add about my assertions.

I'd like to see you address my responses. If you choose not to, then please do as you will.

 

[All Becomes New]

I'd like to see you address my responses. If you choose not to, then please do as you will.

You asked me the same question like 6 times. I would like to know what you think of the answers I gave you for those questions before I more or less answer the same question again. This seems like a reasonable request I am making. If it is not let me know why not.

 

[cvanwey]

Because Jesus says the last shall be first and the first shall be last and He is talking about rewards in heaven as it pertains to your service to him. Since Jesus was the greatest servant, He is most exalted.

I don't know that He is speaking about levels of Heaven in this passage?

I would say there looks to be some mention of it in 1 Corinthians 3:12, 2 Corinthians 12:2, Revelation 22:12, and Hebrews 8:12 however.?.?.?

Maybe if there exists a 'reward system' on your level of faith, even someone like Richard Dawkins might be saved; as he himself states that his level of disbelieve is a 6.5/7. Maybe 0.5 is enough faith Because remember, any part of Heaven is eons better than hell presumably.

I do not know how God determines what He reveals to each individual. No one knows the mind of God except the Spirit of God.

Well, I prayed to Him for decades, and apparently nothing. Others, seem to get His revelation all the time.

God appears fairly fickle in His processes, doesn't He?

 

[cvanwey]

You asked me the same question like 6 times. I would like to know what you think of the answers I gave you for those questions before I more or less answer the same question again. This seems like a reasonable request I am making. If it is not let me know why not.

You really have not answered the actual question, like 6 times Just read what I am asking you.

 

[All Becomes New]

I don't know that He is speaking about levels of Heaven in this passage?

I would say there looks to be some mention of it in 1 Corinthians 3:12, 2 Corinthians 12:2, Revelation 22:12, and Hebrews 8:12 however.?.?.?

Maybe if there exists a 'reward system' on your level of faith, even someone like Richard Dawkins might be saved; as he himself states that his level of disbelieve is a 6.5/7. Maybe 0.5 is enough faith Because remember, any part of Heaven is eons better than hell presumably.

It depends on how cooperative you are with the Holy Spirit on what rewards you are going to get in heaven. I don't think Richard Dawkins is very cooperative with the Holy Spirit. Cooperation with the Holy Spirit is based on a softness of heart, not how much you believe/disbelieve.

Well, I prayed to Him for decades, and apparently nothing. Others, seem to get His revelation all the time.

God appears fairly fickle in His processes, doesn't He?

I don't know what to tell you about this. My only guess is that the Christianity you were exposed to didn't mesh well with how you personally saw God, which lead to what I call a "failed expectation" of who God is which lead to unbelief.

 

[cvanwey]

It depends on how cooperative you are with the Holy Spirit on what rewards you are going to get in heaven. I don't think Richard Dawkins is very cooperative with the Holy Spirit. Cooperation with the Holy Spirit is based on a softness of heart, not how much you believe/disbelieve.

First of all, according to you, the Holy Spirit takes you over, like a human takes over a puppet. If Mr. Dawkins is not singing God's praises, it's only because God did not take him over to do so.

Second, removing the above assumption entirely, if you believe in a tier system, maybe Mr. Dawkin's level of faith, albeit very low, is still enough to warrant a very low level of Heaven --- which is still way better than any level of hell presumably?

I don't know what to tell you about this. My only guess is that the Christianity you were exposed to didn't mesh well with how you personally saw God, which lead to what I call a "failed expectation" of who God is which lead to unbelief.

I would imagine I was as open as you were and are. Hopefully, if YHWH does exist, that tier system pans out, I might make it just above the cut line.

 

[cvanwey]

You have to address it from God’s perspective: “for God, He is not looking at what is going to happen, but what did happen and there is a huge difference. To say “going to happen” means it has not already happened for God so it is not history but in the future for God like it is for humans. If you say God knows what happened in our future, then we could have been the free will cause for that happening. God just knows because God is not limited by human time.

Then God is watching what He already knows is 'going to' or 'did' happen to us, as humans. He's watching 're-runs.'

The “do’s and don’ts” are always to help us. You have this free gift, which means it is yours, but you still have need free will, so you can choose at any time to give up your gift. By doing the do’s and avoiding the don’ts you maintain your desire for unselfish, unconditional, unselfish Godly type Love, which is in contrast to carnal type love. If Godly Love loses its value you might just give it up.

Everyone sins, up to the point of their death, regardless of whether they accept this gift or not. God offers His grace for all sin, outside of accepting this gift. God does not offer His grace in place of the ones whom do not accept the gift.

Thus, your response does not make sense. The only requirement is accepting the gift, the rest is parsley. As long as you do not release the gift, all your sin continues to be pardoned. And no matter how hard you try, you will always sin. God pardons more for some believers, than for others. But it's all arbitrary, as God gracefully absolves all of it none-the-less...

If you really believe there is the Christian heaven and hell then you believe there is this Christian God and this believe can save you. You don’t Love God if as a nonbeliever hell bound, but you can after God has showered you with gifts including eternal life.

God is pure Love but He cannot help those who have continuously refused His Love to the point they will never accept His Love. They can still be used to help those still can be willing to accept God’s Love, even if the wind up in hell.

You've missed my point again. God has created a dichotomy. Accept gift = eternal bliss. Not accepting the gift = eternal torture. If you refuse my offered gift to you, and I declare that the only place you may then go is a dungeon of perpetual torture; and in the very same breath, I claim I still love you, am I truly loving of you? Why not create many differing alternative location(s), but just away from me without the eternal torture?

Yes this does address it: We all here on earth satisfy an objective: those that humbly accept God’s Love as charity fulfill the best objective. Those who refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting Godly type Love, take on the lessor objective of helping those who can still choose to accept God’s Love, which can include going to hell.

I'm afraid it doesn't. You yourself stated there exists an age of accountability. And if one dies prior to this age, they will receive a free pass. A truly altruistic and loving person would want to assure their loved ones are guaranteed access to Heaven. Apparently, according to you, death prior to accountability, achieves this outcome.

Thus, if a mother murders her small children, maybe she is willing to sacrifice jail time to assure her children are saved, especially since she knows the Bible states most will not be?

We agree some believe in the Christian God and some do not, so why is that not a choice?

Simple. Simply will yourself to believe God does not exist. Or even easier, will yourself to not believe something you currently believe (i.e.) the world is not spherical, or 1 + 1 = 3. You cannot do so without some sort of new stimulus or catalyst which you then apprehend to a contrary conclusion/belief.

OK

"OK" you now concede the point entirely?

Why would you accepting the gift of unconditional, unselfish Love, if you want to be a rotten person to others?

Apparently, I accepted this gift long ago. I do not want to release it, just in case. And as you stated, no one can take it away. You have to give it away. Thus, I can keep it.

Can I be rotten to others?

 

[Moral Orel]

You are right that my whole point was to take a balanced approach between helping other people and helping yourself. This does not mean that my ideal is to have some good and some bad in you.

Yes, your ideal involves ignoring the suffering of others that you have the capacity to alleviate, so your ideal is to have some bad.

I tried to ask you what you think it means to love other as you love yourself. You did not answer that question. I think you are focusing entirely on the loving others part without the context of the qualifying statement of how you are actually supposed to do that, namely, as you love yourself.

That's a tricky question. Generally I would say it means to be happy, but there are good ways to make yourself happy and bad ways to make yourself happy. Being selfish makes me happy, but I'll admit that makes me a bad guy. Being selfless should make good folks happy, and being selfish should make good folks feel guilty.

I am reasonably sure at this point that you care more about the idea it is impossible try hard enough rather than actually wanting to know what level of helping others vs. helping yourself is appropriate.

As far as your closing question is concerned, there is no such thing as trying hard enough in the Christian faith because it is a given that we most certainly are never going to be able to try hard enough. But I don't really like the way this is phrased because it sorta implies that we should feel guilty for not doing enough to earn our salvation. The problem with this is that salvation is not in any way based on doing enough to earn our salvation as salvation is a gift of God and we can't ever do enough to satisfy God for Him to save us. Also, I really take issue with the word "try" here. the word try implies making an attempt at a goal that you do not know if you will be able to successful or not. The problem with "trying" to do "enough" (the question would be "enough for what?") is that it is not a matter of whether or not we will succeed, because the answer is that we most certainly will never be able to succeed at earning our salvation.

When a painter wants to paint a realistic picture he tries to recreate the scene perfectly, though he knows that's impossible. You can try to be perfectly good even though you know you'll fail. It isn't impossible to try hard enough, it's only impossible to succeed.

Perhaps a better way to phrase it, if I was going to ask this question, would be something like, "How do I know if I am doing enough to please God?"

From there I could probably take an inventory of my general attitude over the past week to see if I had generally been thankful for what I have, faithful to God, loving and kind to others, gentle in disposition, patient when people irritated me, whether or not I was able to control my impulses, and how much satisfaction I had in Christ. This would basically be an inventory of how the fruits of the Spirit impacted my life (Galatians 5:22-23). And from that inventory, I would probably see in every category that I could have done more. So then what would be left for me to do would be to repent of not doing these things as well as I could have and to make an effort to do better next time. Then I would thank God for forgiving me of not measuring up to His standard and I would move on and try and do better next time.

Except you don't regret when you do something selfish because you think it's fine to ignore the suffering of others as long as it's just sometimes. Remember that scene at the end of Schindler's List when he's bemoaning all the wealth he still has that he could have done more with? He was right! He could have done more, he should have done more, and he's a good person because he feels bad that he didn't. It would be a bad person who says, "Okay, but I did a lot. It's no big deal that I held on to this expensive watch that I could have sold to save someone's life".

 

[All Becomes New]

First of all, according to you, the Holy Spirit takes you over, like a human takes over a puppet. If Mr. Dawkins is not singing God's praises, it's only because God did not take him over to do so.

Second, removing the above assumption entirely, if you believe in a tier system, maybe Mr. Dawkin's level of faith, albeit very low, is still enough to warrant a very low level of Heaven --- which is still way better than any level of hell presumably?

Cooperation does not mean taking over as a puppet.

Does the Holy Spirit live in Dawkins? That is what is necessary to get into heaven.

I would imagine I was as open as you were and are. Hopefully, if YHWH does exist, that tier system pans out, I might make it just above the cut line.

Same answer as for Dawkins, but with your situation, I don't know if you are still trying to pray to God or not.

 

[All Becomes New]

Yes, your ideal involves ignoring the suffering of others that you have the capacity to alleviate, so your ideal is to have some bad.

It does not entail "ignoring" anything. If I don't know about the suffering of others, how can I be held accountable for it? My position is about helping people who come in your path to help. That is hardly ignoring anything.

That's a tricky question. Generally I would say it means to be happy, but there are good ways to make yourself happy and bad ways to make yourself happy. Being selfish makes me happy, but I'll admit that makes me a bad guy. Being selfless should make good folks happy, and being selfish should make good folks feel guilty.

When a painter wants to paint a realistic picture he tries to recreate the scene perfectly, though he knows that's impossible. You can try to be perfectly good even though you know you'll fail. It isn't impossible to try hard enough, it's only impossible to succeed.

Well, loving others as you love your self is what you should aim at.

Except you don't regret when you do something selfish because you think it's fine to ignore the suffering of others as long as it's just sometimes. Remember that scene at the end of Schindler's List when he's bemoaning all the wealth he still has that he could have done more with? He was right! He could have done more, he should have done more, and he's a good person because he feels bad that he didn't. It would be a bad person who says, "Okay, but I did a lot. It's no big deal that I held on to this expensive watch that I could have sold to save someone's life".

Don't you think ignoring means you have knowledge of something, but chose not to do anything about it? So If I don't have knowledge of all the suffering going on, I don't think I am ignoring it. Practically, Jesus said it is very difficult for a rich person to get saved for this reason - because they can help people, but they don't.

 

[bling]

Thus, your response does not make sense. The only requirement is accepting the gift, the rest is parsley. As long as you do not release the gift, all your sin continues to be pardoned. And no matter how hard you try, you will always sin. God pardons more for some believers, than for others. But it's all arbitrary, as God gracefully absolves all of it none-the-less...

Correctly accepting the “gift” of pure undeserved charity, requires humility to humbly accept pure charity as charity. You have to be a sincere beggar, begging for charity.

Someone who realizes they have just humbly accepted all these wonderful gifts, will out of a gratitude type of Love want to please God by not sinning and God has provided them with the indwelling Holy Spirit so now they do not have to sin. As long as the indwelling Holy Spirit is not being quenched and He is participating in all your activities you cannot sin.

Sinning is not the issue, since sins can be forgiven, while unforgiven sins are a huge issue. You do not stop sinning by working hard not to sin, but by filling your life with good stuff, so you do not have time to sin.

You've missed my point again. God has created a dichotomy. Accept gift = eternal bliss. Not accepting the gift = eternal torture. If you refuse my offered gift to you, and I declare that the only place you may then go is a dungeon of perpetual torture; and in the very same breath, I claim I still love you, am I truly loving of you? Why not create many differing alternative location(s), but just away from me without the eternal torture?

Again, God is not going to take away your free will and make you into some kind of robot. Yes, God does Love those that have gone to hell (and eventual annihilation), but they refused to accept God’s help (charity) to the point they would never accept His charity, so there is nothing more God can do for them, but they can be used to help others to eventually accept God’s charity. God is not sending those He Loves to hell out of His Love for them, but out of God’s Love for others.

Thus, if a mother murders her small children, maybe she is willing to sacrifice jail time to assure her children are saved, especially since she knows the Bible states most will not be?

Just going to heaven without Godly type Love is not the objective. Obtaining Godly type Love while here on earth is the first objective, which makes you like God in heaven. This time on earth is the way for us to become like Deity. A baby that goes to heaven only has a child’s love for a wonderful parent type of love and this child can never obtain Godly type Love in a heavenly situation.

The Bible teaches degrees of punishment dependent on the offence and eventual annihilation (second death).

Yes, I want my Loved ones to go to heaven, but I also want everyone to want to be in heaven and I realize some will refuse to accept God’s charity and their refusal is not God’s fault, but also can help other to accept God’s charity. If my Loved ones do not want God’s Love, they can go on to help others want God’s Love.

Simple. Simply will yourself to believe God does not exist. Or even easier, will yourself to not believe something you currently believe (i.e.) the world is not spherical, or 1 + 1 = 3. You cannot do so without some sort of new stimulus or catalyst which you then apprehend to a contrary conclusion/belief.

The Bible tells us and it is easy to see, a person has to be a fool not to believe in a god.

Apparently, I accepted this gift long ago. I do not want to release it, just in case. And as you stated, no one can take it away. You have to give it away. Thus, I can keep it.

Can I be rotten to others?

Do you Love God as a result of being forgiven “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”?

 

[Moral Orel]

It does not entail "ignoring" anything. If I don't know about the suffering of others, how can I be held accountable for it? My position is about helping people who come in your path to help. That is hardly ignoring anything.

Bologna you aren't aware there are people suffering in the world that you can easily find and help. Bologna, and you know it's bologna.

 

[All Becomes New]

Bologna you aren't aware there are people suffering in the world that you can easily find and help. Bologna, and you know it's bologna.

Not if I am actually doing something about it. Do you know I am not, or are you assuming I am not?

 

[cvanwey]

Cooperation does not mean taking over as a puppet.

Does the Holy Spirit live in Dawkins? That is what is necessary to get into heaven.

Same answer as for Dawkins, but with your situation, I don't know if you are still trying to pray to God or not.

"Cooperation" does not mean a completely one sided relationship. I do not know about others, but for me, this was apparently the case.

Like I've also been saying, after 30+ years of this apparent one-sidedness, I gave up.

Since you believe in petitionary prayer, maybe you can ask Him to contact me? If you will not, why not?

If you do, and He doesn't contact me, then He is also ignoring your earnest request as well.

If you can only pray for fellow believers, this means any/all people, whom pray for any non-believers, are always wrong.

 

[All Becomes New]

"Cooperation" does not mean a completely one sided relationship. I do not know about others, but for me, this was apparently the case.

Like I've also been saying, after 30+ years of this apparent one-sidedness, I gave up.

Since you believe in petitionary prayer, maybe you can ask Him to contact me? If you will not, why not?

If you do, and He doesn't contact me, then He is also ignoring your earnest request as well.

Why do atheists just want to criticize things?

Also, you didn't provide a definition of intercessory prayer.

And I asked you what kind of experience you were looking for in praying to God and you never really said what you were looking for. I thought it was some sort of emotional or spiritual experience, but you shot this down.

 

[cvanwey]

Why do atheists just want to criticize things?

This response gives me a chuckle I'm actually being quite sincere. This is the forum arena for people like me to ask questions of believers. I'm sorry if you feel I'm 'criticizing'. I'm asking earnest questions. Sorry you do not like them.

Also, you didn't provide a definition of intercessory prayer.

Yes I did, but here is the most basic one again. "Praying for others", "Praying on behalf of others", etc... It's a term which practically needs no clarification, once you know what intercession means.

And I asked you what kind of experience you were looking for in praying to God and you never really said what you were looking for. I thought it was some sort of emotional or spiritual experience, but you shot this down.

I already answered this as well... Anything at all, besides the feeling I was speaking to myself.

When I asked you how you know, you stated "answered prayer." Well, I've already addressed 'prayer' with you. You, have since, seem not too motivated to address this topic any longer

 

[All Becomes New]

This response gives me a chuckle I'm actually being quite sincere. This is the forum arena for people like me to ask questions of believers. I'm sorry if you feel I'm 'criticizing'. I'm asking earnest questions. Sorry you do not like them.

It's hard to tell you are being sincere because you seem to have a lot of negative beliefs about Christianity and your questions and comments about it tend to be very negative. I associate negativity with disingenuousness in some manner. I don't see what the purpose of atheists being here at all actually is. I feel they've already made up their mind so to speak rather than actually exploring whether or not Christianity is actually true or not. This is what I assume about you as well. You've heard, "Why so serious?" right? Well, I would change this to, "Why so negative?"

Yes I did, but here is the most basic one again. "Praying for others", "Praying on behalf of others", etc... It's a term which practically needs no clarification, once you know what intercession means.

I agree with praying FOR others, but IDK what I think of praying ON BEHALF of others. Jesus intercedes for us, but I am not sure if this should actually be a common practice in Christians themselves.

I already answered this as well... Anything at all, besides the feeling I was speaking to myself.

And I tried to tell you if you were praying as if you were talking to yourself, you were not praying with faith. Let me ask at what point did you feel you were talking to yourself when you were praying. Or did you ever feel like you were talking to God when praying to him? I personally don't see how someone could be a Christian and feel like they were talking to the air when praying every time they prayed. It makes it seem like you never actually believed, but you tell me you did believe, so clearly there is more to the story than just this.

When I asked you how you know, you stated "answered prayer." Well, I've already addressed 'prayer' with you. You, have since, seem not to motivated to address this topic any longer

Because IDK what to do about it. If you were praying if faith, that would be one thing. But I never got the impression you actually believed you were talking to God. So IDK really what to tell you about it.