Are you afraid of going to Hell?

martymonster · Jun 14, 2017

What the historic Christian church believes or doesn't believe, does not concern me.
The only thing that does concern me is what the scriptures teach.

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

St_Worm2 · Jun 14, 2017

Hi again MM, the problem with that is the fact that the historic church (which is comprised of its many members, incl. theologians, doctors, pastors, priests, the laity, etc.), continues to believe/teach what it has for millennia BECAUSE of the Bible and because of what we believe it teaches (and NOT simply because, 'that's what the church has always taught').

Millions (billions?) have looked at/tested what the church teaches about this subject over the years (and that in the bright light of Scripture), and we continue to come to the same conclusions.

For instance:

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

How can any of this be true if the dead are unconscious until the Great White Throne (in the case of the reprobate), or until the Bema Seat Judgment and Glory in the case of the saints?

How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would be in life), if they are not conscious when they are with Him?

How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ (rather than laboring on in the flesh and the faith here for the sake of the saints), if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying in an unconscious state before Him?

And how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice" if their souls are just as lifeless as their bodies in death

It is for Biblical reasons such as these that the church, as a whole, has continued to teach what it has for millennia now, IOW, that the doctrine of the "sleep of the soul" in death is heretical. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to consider again all that we (as well the Bible, of course) have to say about this and why

Yours and His,
David

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

DeerGlow said:
The one about laughing at your calamity scares me. Like when you get fear and seek God early, He might laugh at your despair? You call and He ignores you?

Think of this as those who reject God. Those who seek their own path and thumb their nose at God thinking they can do it themselves better. Think on these passages from that context.

Jesus is forever pleading with us to humbly come to Him and He will give us rest.

Matthew 11:28-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
What the historic Christian church believes or doesn't believe, does not concern me.
The only thing that does concern me is what the scriptures teach.

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

What is your exegesis of these passages?

martymonster · Jun 15, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again MM, the problem with that is the fact that the historic church (which is comprised of its many members, incl. theologians, doctors, pastors, priests, the laity, etc.), continues to believe/teach what it has for millennia BECAUSE of the Bible and because of what we believe it teaches (and NOT simply because, 'that's what the church has always taught').

Millions (billions?) have looked at/tested what the church has always taught about this subject over the years (and that in the bright light of Scripture), and we continue to come to the same conclusions.

For instance:

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

How can any of this be true if the dead are unconscious until the Great White Throne (in the case of the reprobate), or until the Bema Seat Judgment and Glory in the case of the saints?

How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would in life) if they are not conscious when they are with Him?

How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ (rather than laboring on in the flesh and the faith here for the sake of the saints who needed him), if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying in an unconscious state before Him?

And how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice" if their souls are just as lifeless as their bodies in death

It is for Biblical reasons such as these that the church as a whole has continued to teach what it has for millennia now, IOW, that the "sleep of the soul" in death is heretical. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to consider again all that we (as well the Bible, of course) have to say about this and why

Yours and His,
David

So you're saying, in order for the verses you have quoted to be actual events that have happened on an actual time line, then the dead must actually be roaming around the afterlife in some form?
Is that correct?

Problem is, that they are not actual factual accounts, but proverbs that reflect a much larger spiritual truth.

Revelation is not literal account of end times prophecy. It is written in spiritual language to be interpreted by the rest of scripture.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation is made up of signs and symbols. The reader is not at liberty to decide which parts are literal and which parts are symbolic. They are all symbolic. Unless of course you think Christ is a literal four footed barn animal with a voice like an orchestral brass instrument?

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is just that.....a parable!

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

BTW, teaching the multitudes with parables is not fitting in with someone who is rushing around desperately trying to save people from "Eternal Punishment"

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

martymonster · Jun 15, 2017

redleghunter said:
What is your exegesis of these passages?

My exegesis? You want me to dissect the scriptures I've quoted and tell you what I think they mean?
No thanks! There are already enough people doing that in the world, which is why we have thousands of denominations and cults.

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
My exegesis? You want me to dissect the scriptures I've quoted and tell you what I think they mean?
No thanks! There are already enough people doing that in the world, which is why we have thousands of denominations and cults.

Then you should take the following at face value :

John 14: NKJV

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

martymonster · Jun 15, 2017

redleghunter said:
Then you should take the following at face value :

John 14: NKJV

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

None of it is to be taken at face value, but neither is up to your own personal interpretation.
Really, what explanation does "the dead know nothing" really require?
Do you really need it explained to you?

Pray to the Lord and ask that he grant you wisdom and understanding then.

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
So you're saying, in order for the verses you have quoted to be actual events that have happened on an actual time line, then the dead must actually be roaming around the afterlife in some form?
Is that correct?

I believe 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 is quite clear and quite absolute in language. While we sojourn here on earth we are absent from the presence of the Lord. When we are absent from our bodies we are present with the Lord.

Paul makes a most decisive statement here, an absolute which cannot be ignored and confirms the words of Christ in John 14.

What's the absolute? That once we die we are absent from our fallen bodies yet in the presence of Christ. Did Paul mention the extent of our consciousness? Not exactly, however the text does suggest he knows he will be in the presence of Christ.

You did quote Proverbs and I believe Ecclesiastes. We have to remember God's revelation is progressive in the Bible. Solomon was opining on the light given him by God. The OT saints had limited revelation from God on eternal life. Job touches on this subject and also Daniel 12.

However most of the OT is a promise from God to Israel that if they obey Him they will have good crops, large families and peace on their borders. It was a physical conditional covenant.

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
None of it is to be taken at face value, but neither is up to your own personal interpretation.
Really, what explanation does "the dead know nothing" really require?
Do you really need it explained to you?

Pray to the Lord and ask that he grant you wisdom and understanding then.

You are reading into the text. The dead do know nothing when compared to the living in our time, space and matter.

God created, time space and matter. When we die to be present with the Lord, the affairs of the world are no longer our place.

Solomon was talking about a dead body that just became worm food. Of course a dead body would know nothing.

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
None of it is to be taken at face value, but neither is up to your own personal interpretation.

I did not interpret anything. Those were the big bold red letters of Christ I quoted.

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
My exegesis? You want me to dissect the scriptures I've quoted and tell you what I think they mean?
No thanks! There are already enough people doing that in the world, which is why we have thousands of denominations and cults.

Actually cults apply eisegesis not exegesis.

For example, someone might have a theological idea and then go hunting for verses to find what they are looking for. Again that is eisegesis.

Exegesis draws the truth out of the verse or passage.

For example, using Solomon to describe things like the afterlife must be taken in the context of his time and what had been revealed by God at that time.

martymonster · Jun 15, 2017

redleghunter said:
You are reading into the text. The dead do know nothing when compared to the living in our time, space and matter.

God created, time space and matter. When we die to be present with the Lord, the affairs of the world are no longer our place.

Solomon was talking about a dead body that just became worm food. Of course a dead body would know nothing.

I assume by your very twisted reply, that you do not have any actual scripture to back up your claim?
So what exactly is the point of a first and second resurrection, if the dead aren't actually dead?
By saying "the dead" it is obvious that the author is talking about the whole person, and not just the body. To say that your explanation is a stretch, is an understatement.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's a bit of a stretch to try and make out that the above verse is talking about mere bodies being asleep in the dust. don't you agree?

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun

Notice a few facts in your quotes above.

I bolded the areas which we should discuss.

"Neither have they anymore a reward.." What does that mean to you? Is the reward discussed temporal or heavenly?

"For the memory of them is forgotten.." Whose memory? The dead persons memory or those still left alive?

"neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun"... Who is they? Yes the dead person. Now where has their portion ended. Yes here on earth as "done under the sun" is temporal.

So this passage has nothing to do with the state of a soul in the afterlife but it is about how all worldly pursuits and accomplishments are forgotten.

redleghunter · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
I assume by your very twisted reply, that you do not have any actual scripture to back up your claim?
So what exactly is the point of a first and second resurrection, if the dead aren't actually dead?
By saying "the dead" it is obvious that the author is talking about the whole person, and not just the body. To say that your explanation is a stretch, is an understatement.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's a bit of a stretch to try and make out that the above verse is talking about mere bodies being asleep in the dust. don't you agree?

I think you are confusing our bodies with our souls.

I already pointed out both Jesus and Paul tell their audience that they will be in the presence of the Lord when they die. Those are the Scriptures I provided.

Daniel 12 is about the resurrection where God makes us whole with glorified incorruptible bodies.

Why are you ignoring the references to 2 Corinthians 5? It's quite absolute. Are Paul's epistles in your canon?

DivineD · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
No, not for eternity, just until they have their carnal mind burned out of them.
P.S. The lake of fire is not physical.

Carnal minds can be burned out of them? Whatever new teaching is this?
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
and then Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Sounds like forever to me.

DivineD · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
So you're saying, in order for the verses you have quoted to be actual events that have happened on an actual time line, then the dead must actually be roaming around the afterlife in some form?
Is that correct?

Problem is, that they are not actual factual accounts, but proverbs that reflect a much larger spiritual truth.

Revelation is not literal account of end times prophecy. It is written in spiritual language to be interpreted by the rest of scripture.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation is made up of signs and symbols. The reader is not at liberty to decide which parts are literal and which parts are symbolic. They are all symbolic. Unless of course you think Christ is a literal four footed barn animal with a voice like an orchestral brass instrument?

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is just that.....a parable!

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

BTW, teaching the multitudes with parables is not fitting in with someone who is rushing around desperately trying to save people from "Eternal Punishment"

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

You said: "The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is just that.....a parable!"

So all parables are not real? They're just made up stories? Jesus just made up Abraham talking in Heaven? That's quite a claim to make.

Butch5 · Jun 15, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again MM, the problem with that is the fact that the historic church (which is comprised of its many members, incl. theologians, doctors, pastors, priests, the laity, etc.), continues to believe/teach what it has for millennia BECAUSE of the Bible and because of what we believe it teaches (and NOT simply because, 'that's what the church has always taught').

Millions (billions?) have looked at/tested what the church teaches about this subject over the years (and that in the bright light of Scripture), and we continue to come to the same conclusions.

For instance:

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

How can any of this be true if the dead are unconscious until the Great White Throne (in the case of the reprobate), or until the Bema Seat Judgment and Glory in the case of the saints?

How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would be in life), if they are not conscious when they are with Him?

How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ (rather than laboring on in the flesh and the faith here for the sake of the saints), if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying in an unconscious state before Him?

And how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice" if their souls are just as lifeless as their bodies in death

It is for Biblical reasons such as these that the church, as a whole, has continued to teach what it has for millennia now, IOW, that the doctrine of the "sleep of the soul" in death is heretical. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to consider again all that we (as well the Bible, of course) have to say about this and why

Yours and His,
David

How it can be true is to understand it from the perspective of the people to which it was written as opposed to people who come from a different perspective. The passages you posted here are often misunderstood today and have been for years. Consider that most people today believe, about the afterlife, just like the Greeks did before Christ. Consider why the Bible calls people dead if in fact they aren't dead.

Copperhead · Jun 15, 2017

martymonster said:
Problem is, that they are not actual factual accounts, but proverbs that reflect a much larger spiritual truth.

Nothing about the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus implies it is a parable. It quite well could be a real account that Jesus knew of. But the context does not suggest it is a parable. Jesus had just gotten done taking the Pharisees to task in the previous verses and immediately told this account. Jesus had given a parable in the early part of this chapter, but the Pharisees were deriding Him over it. He took them to task and then told the Lazarus story. There is nothing in the text to suggest He was giving another parable at that point.

Butch5 · Jun 15, 2017

Copperhead said:
Nothing about the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus implies it is a parable. It quite well could be a real account that Jesus knew of. But the context does not suggest it is a parable. Jesus had just gotten done taking the Pharisees to task in the previous verses and immediately told this account. Jesus had given a parable in the early part of this chapter, but the Pharisees were deriding Him over it. He took them to task and then told the Lazarus story. There is nothing in the text to suggest He was giving another parable at that point.

The fact that dead people are talking suggests a parable.

Are you afraid of going to Hell?

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