Are you a "Moderate SDA"? IF so what do you mean by that?

[tampasteve]

Are there any guesses as to how many "moderate" congregations or believers there are as opposed to "traditional"?

 

[BobRyan]

Are there any guesses as to how many "moderate" congregations or believers there are as opposed to "traditional"?

I am not at all clear on how people are dividing up on that. I know a lot of people that would call themselves moderate and then some liberal would call them traditional or ultra-conservative so I guess it depends on if the label is from the outside looking in or the inside looking out...

What do you think of when you say "moderate" ? "traditional"?

On the General Theology section of this board "Traditional" means basing doctrine on tradition and not the Bible. And if you go to the "traditional Chritianity" section and start quoting the Bible to show that some tradition does not measure up they tell you that that part of the board does is only for those who value tradition as equal to or superior to the Bible so no tradition-challenging texts allowed.

That is not what SDAs mean by traditional. Some SDAs who call themselves tradition take James White as their indicator of what views to have on the nature of Christ or Trinity etc and they might differ with the published 28 Fundamental Beliefs in some rare cases.

Moderates and Traditional would "normally" be affirming all the 28 Fundamental beliefs. Progressives and Liberals ... not so much.

 

[tampasteve]

What do you think of when you say "moderate" ? "traditional"?

My idea of "moderate", in regards to SDA, would be that they affirm the 28 FB, but are more open to not being a vegetarian, watching TV, etc, basically more "worldly" things or being more loose on following the teachings of EGW on life issues. My idea of "traditional" would be the opposite in regards to the more worldly aspects, but still affirming the 28 FB, and then following the advice of EGW more strictly.

On the General Theology section of this board "Traditional" means basing doctrine on tradition and not the Bible. And if you go to the "traditional Christianity" section and start quoting the Bible to show that some tradition does not measure up they tell you that that part of the board does is only for those who value tradition as equal to or superior to the Bible so no tradition-challenging texts allowed.

Sure, big "T" Tradition vs small "t" tradition.

That is not what SDAs mean by traditional. Some SDAs who call themselves tradition take James White as their indicator of what views to have on the nature of Christ or Trinity etc and they might differ with the published 28 Fundamental Beliefs in some rare cases.

Moderates and Traditional would "normally" be affirming all the 28 Fundamental beliefs. Progressives and Liberals ... not so much.

Interesting, thank you for making the distinction. I suppose it varies by church and by personal believer as to what they define themselves as.

 

[BobRyan]

My idea of "moderate", in regards to SDA, would be that they affirm the 28 FB, but are more open to not being a vegetarian, watching TV, etc, basically more "worldly" things or being more loose on following the teachings of EGW on life issues. My idea of "traditional" would be the opposite in regards to the more worldly aspects, but still affirming the 28 FB, and then following the advice of EGW more strictly.

I pray we could all strive to be what you call traditional in that case.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

1. "Moderate" could mean -- I accept QoD as a valid reliable doctrinal statement for SDAs that is in perfect harmony with the 28FB.

2. It could mean - -I accept the 28FB and Ellen White but I don't like the harsh critical judgmental (all Ellen White all the time) spirit I find among "some" notoriously conservative web-site practices so I prefer not to be identified as "conservative".

3. Or it could mean -- I accept all 28FB but I do not accept the idea of "ceasing to sin" before the 2nd coming -- or any variation of that.

4. Or it could mean -- I accept some of the 28FB -- just not the IJ.

Or it could mean -- ??

Well I guess that is the question for this thread -- if you are moderate SDA -- what do you mean by that?

If you are not moderate-SDA what do you think the term means?

If you consider yourself moderate -- how do you suppose that differs from "progressive"?

(Maybe we need a similar thread for "progressive"?)

in Christ,

Bob

I am not a moderate Adventist and I do not know what that means. I'm a progressive adventist, which means I have progressed past the point of even desiring the label. I hold to doctrine that can be upheld by the scriptures, such as the Sabbath, the OT state of the dead and premillennialism with it reign of the saints on earth; but I’ve cast-off untenable doctrine such as the IJ, replacement theology and the thousand years of the saint’s reign in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

I am not a moderate Adventist and I do not know what that means. I'm a progressive adventist, which means I have progressed past the point of even desiring the label.

When you say "the Label" I assume you mean you don't want to be called a "Seventh-day Adventist".

You might be interested in Seventh-day Baptists

I hold to doctrine that can be upheld by the scriptures, such as the Sabbath, the OT state of the dead and premillennialism with it reign of the saints on earth; but I’ve cast-off untenable doctrine such as the IJ, replacement theology and the thousand years of the saint’s reign in heaven.

And I assume you also don't accept the Bible doctrine on the gift of prophecy.
And the historicist model of prophetic interpretation used by all Protestant Reformers

BTW - Adventist doctrine is post-trib pre-millennialism which requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium

Which means the SDA denomination is the only one with a perfect accommodation for the Bible texts on the "desolate earth" where cities all over the world are destroyed and there are no humans on Earth.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

When you say "the Label" I assume you mean you don't want to be called a "Seventh-day Adventist".

You might be interested in Seventh-day Baptists



And I assume you also don't accept the Bible doctrine on the gift of prophecy.
And the historicist model of prophetic interpretation used by all Protestant Reformers

BTW - Adventist doctrine is post-trib pre-millennialism which requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium

Which means the SDA denomination is the only one with a perfect accommodation for the Bible texts on the "desolate earth" where cities all over the world are destroyed and there are no humans on Earth.

I hold to the hermeneutic of progressive revelation, as Guinness stated, “human comprehension of Divine prophecy has also been by degrees.”* Being bound by creeds simply will not allow one to maintain an openness to God’s principle of progressive revelation.

As I said, I no longer desire to be bound by labels and now I add to creeds either.

You shouldn’t assume anything without knowing the facts. I’m a historicist that progresses, as my homepage conveys. The testimony of Christ, not EGW or the SDA, is the spirit of prophecy and Christ’s Revelation holds the saints do not tabernacle with the Father until the end of the thousand years.

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.” Rev 21:1-3 ESV

Explain to me how the saints could be in heaven/paradise, the tabernacle of God the Father, and the tabernacle of God the Father be declared to be definitively with man only at the end of the thousand years according to the testimony of Christ above? The “desolate earth” doctrine is a fallacy founded upon the error of Replacement theology. Rather the illustration of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven is idiomatic of how we no longer have to come to “the heavenly Jerusalem” in a figurative sense, as Hebrews 12:22 states, when the tabernacle of God will be with man at the end of the thousand years, fulfilling “Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

*Henry Grattan Guinness, The Approaching End of the Age Viewed in the Light of History Prophecy and Science (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1878 ed.), 80

 

[BobRyan]

I am not a moderate Adventist and I do not know what that means. I'm a progressive adventist, which means I have progressed past the point of even desiring the label.

When you say "the Label" I assume you mean you don't want to be called a "Seventh-day Adventist".

You might be interested in Seventh-day Baptists

I hold to doctrine that can be upheld by the scriptures, such as the Sabbath, the OT state of the dead and premillennialism with it reign of the saints on earth; but I’ve cast-off untenable doctrine such as the IJ, replacement theology and the thousand years of the saint’s reign in heaven.

And I assume you also don't accept the Bible doctrine on the gift of prophecy.
And the historicist model of prophetic interpretation used by all Protestant Reformers

BTW - Adventist doctrine is post-trib pre-millennialism which requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium

Which means the SDA denomination is the only one with a perfect accommodation for the Bible texts on the "desolate earth" where cities all over the world are destroyed and there are no humans on Earth.

I hold to the hermeneutic of progressive revelation, as Guinness stated, “human comprehension of Divine prophecy has also been by degrees.”* Being bound by creeds simply will not allow one to maintain an openness to God’s principle of progressive revelation.

As I said, I no longer desire to be bound by labels and now I add to creeds either.

Does not answer the question... when you use the term "Label" - do you mean that you do not want to be identified as a Seventh-day Adventist.??

"You worship what you do not know - we worship what we know -- for salvation is of the Jews" -- John 4.

Comes to mind.

I’m a historicist that progresses, as my homepage conveys. The testimony of Christ, not EGW or the SDA, is the spirit of prophecy

You are merely parsing words. All Adventists believe that the Spirit of Prophecy is God the Holy Spirit, also called "the Spirit of Christ". This is irrefutable.

They also know that it is a title of a set of books and it is a reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in the messages He gave to the church through the prophet Ellen White.

Christ’s Revelation holds the saints do not tabernacle with the Father until the end of the thousand years.
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.” Rev 21:1-3 ESV

All Adventists believe the city of God comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years and that the throne of God is in that city. And we both know it.

This it not "news".

How does that make someone "not an Adventist"??

Explain to me how the saints could be in heaven/paradise, the tabernacle of God the Father, and the tabernacle of God the Father be declared to be definitively with man only at the end of the thousand years according to the testimony of Christ above?

The text never said that the saints did not go to heaven at the second coming.

In Hebrews 11 we are told that Enoch and Moses "DID not receive what was promised" -- even though at the writing of Hebrews 11 - both of them were physically in heaven.

Because as Isaiah 66 and Matthew 5 remind us -- the "home" of the saints is 'The new heavens and the New Earth" thus the saints "inherit the Earth" just as Daniel 7 points out.

This is not that complicated and Adventists accept it.

The “desolate earth” doctrine is a fallacy

Until you read the actual Bible.

Rev 19 all the wicked that remain on earth killed at the 2nd coming. desolate earth
Rev 14 all the saints taken... then all the wicked killed. desolate earth

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.


I choose the Bible.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

And I assume you also don't accept the Bible doctrine on the gift of prophecy.
And the historicist model of prophetic interpretation used by all Protestant Reformers

BTW - Adventist doctrine is post-trib pre-millennialism which requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium

Which means the SDA denomination is the only one with a perfect accommodation for the Bible texts on the "desolate earth" where cities all over the world are destroyed and there are no humans on Earth.

Where does the Bible say a post-trib, pre-millennialism requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium? That’s pure hypothesis. The grammatical-historical perception is that the Messianic kingdom is established upon the earth.

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.” Jer 23:5 (KJV unless otherwise stated)

In its explanation of Isa 11:4, the SDA bible commentary affirms Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom at his return, 1000 years before the phenomena of Rev 21:1-3.

“Isaiah pictures Messiah returning to the earth to subdue his enemies and to take His kingdom (see Dan. 2:43, 44; Rev. 19:11-21; cf. Rev. 12:5; 14:14-10). Then he will ‘smite’ the unjust rulers of earth... In Rev. 1:16 ‘a sharp two edged sword’ is pictured as coming from the mouth of Christ, and in 2 Thess. 2:8 He is described as destroying the Antichrist ‘with the spirit of his mouth’ (see also Hosea 6:5)” [Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. IV, Review and Herald Pub., 1977, pg. 159, ISAIAH 11 4, s.v. Smite the earth.]​

The desolate earth perception chafes against the affirmation that the “wolf also shall dwell with the lamb” in the same context that Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom, which the SDA commentary maintains as entering the 1000 years.

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.” Isa 11:6

Inadvertently, the SDA commentary, above, concedes the creature itself as delivered at the second advent, which is also the manifestation of the sons of God according to Paul, below, which defies the desolate earth doctrine.

“For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” Rom 8:19-21

The manifestation of the sons of God is when the “wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,” and when Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom according to the texts above and the SDA commentary. This does not support the desolate earth doctrine. If the Messiah’s kingdom is in heaven and the earth is void and desolate of life in the age to come we have a problem with Paul and Isaiah placing the phenomenon of the deliverance of the creature with the return of Christ, at the manifestation of the sons of God. Many of the Adventist’s doctrines are rife with contradictions and fallacies.

When you say "the Label" I assume you mean you don't want to be called a "Seventh-day Adventist".
You might be interested in Seventh-day Baptists

Does not answer the question... when you use the term "Label" - do you mean that you do not want to be identified as a Seventh-day Adventist.??
"You worship what you do not know - we worship what we know -- for salvation is of the Jews" -- John 4.
Comes to mind.

It means I studied my way into Adventism, was ordained as an elder, and then studied my way out of the denomination through progressive revelation as a historicist. I hold the sine qua non of historicism: the papacy as the antichrist and the day-year principle. It’s not important to me to be labeled an Adventist, albeit, I’m sure some would still consider me a progressive Adventist because I still hold to some degree of their doctrine. Actually, I come closer to the “Church of God” doctrine’s today, although I have conflict with some of their creeds also. I would consider myself non-denominational today, and merely a member of Yahweh’s church, wherever two or three are gathered. I don’t hold to the way that seems right to man, but to the way God reveals.

You are merely parsing words. All Adventists believe that the Spirit of Prophecy is God the Holy Spirit, also called "the Spirit of Christ". This is irrefutable.

They also know that it is a title of a set of books and it is a reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in the messages He gave to the church through the prophet Ellen White.

Then, according to your words the books of EGW are suitable for CANON? Let’s not parse words. There are 66 canonical books plus scores of others that A denomination includes as canon in difference with the rest of Christendom. The Adventist denomination has all the truth and all others walk in darkness. Again, let’s not parse words. Of course, this also conveys an infallibility on the person of EGW or the entrance of an ex cathedra perception at the least. Again, let’s not parse words, say what you imply.

All Adventists believe the city of God comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years and that the throne of God is in that city. And we both know it.

This it not "news".

How does that make someone "not an Adventist"??

The text never said that the saints did not go to heaven at the second coming.

This is in response to my challenge that Rev 21:3 reveals the saints don’t dwell with God the Father until after the 1000 years. I’ll use the version you used (ESV).

“And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.” Rev 21:3

You didn’t grasp or respond to my query, so let me put it in a statement. The text maintains the saints do not dwell with the Father until after the millennium, which exposes the perception they go to heaven previously, where the Father dwells, as a fallacy. Again, the proper perception of New Jerusalem descending from heaven is allegorical and the definitive when man dwells with God the Father as literal, in conformity with and when Christ renders his kingdom to the Father, according to Paul.

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor 15:24

The “end” would be parallel with Rev 21:1-3.

In Hebrews 11 we are told that Enoch and Moses "DID not receive what was promised" -- even though at the writing of Hebrews 11 - both of them were physically in heaven.

Because as Isaiah 66 and Matthew 5 remind us -- the "home" of the saints is 'The new heavens and the New Earth" thus the saints "inherit the Earth" just as Daniel 7 points out.

This is not that complicated and Adventists accept it.

The Bible affirms:

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Jn 3:13

We know John speaks of paradise, from whence Christ came, and your perception, the Adventist’s perception, of Isa 65 (I think you mistake 66 for 65) Matt 5 and Dan 7 are untenable.

“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:10

Until you read the actual Bible.

Rev 19 all the wicked that remain on earth killed at the 2nd coming. desolate earth
Rev 14 all the saints taken... then all the wicked killed. desolate earth

Ez 32:4-8….

Jer 4:23….

Jer 25:33….

Zeph 1:18….

Isaiah 24….

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24….

I choose the Bible.

This is in response to my affirmation the desolate earth doctrine is untenable. Isa 24 states that there are a few men left after this apocalyptic conflagration, which Adventism pervasively leaves out.

“Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.” Isa 24:6

The other texts must agree.

Furthermore, Adventists take texts from Jer 4 and 25 that refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and then the nations (after the 70 years captivity) to shore-up their untenable doctrine. The earth wasn’t made desolate then and will not at Christ’s return either. Jeremiah’s representation pertains to the restricted decimation of ancient Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar and then the nations at the hands of Cyrus and hardly the entire earth, what one would witness gazing narrowly and for a moment in the aftermath of a besieged, decimated and desolated city.

The wicked destroyed at Christ’s does not preclude there are few men left in Isa 24 that agrees with Matthew and Revelation.

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” Matt 25:31-33

“And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.” Rev 2:26-27

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Rev 20:4

The saints come with Christ after being caught up with him in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17), the first heavens, then return with him to judge the sheep and the goats. Zechariah parallels the event, the Day of the Lord, when Christ’s “feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives.”

“On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.” Zech 14:4-5 (emphasis added)

The antitype of the Festival of the Tabernacles, Sukkot, occurs at this time in which the goats who survive Christ's return, mentioned in Matt 25, will be coerced by the "rod of iron" to observe the ordinance.

“Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.” Zech 14:16-17 ESV (emphasis added)

Those who survive of the nations parallel the goats in Matt 25, while the sheep represent those of the nations who care for the saints as they are being persecuted by the goats, just prior to Christ’s return.

You can rely on EGW’s work as canon if you desire; I desire to hold the 66 books of the Bible as canon, exclusively.

 

[BobRyan]

Where does the Bible say a post-trib, pre-millennialism requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium?

It is the only way that can happen.

John 14 says that Christ is coming back to take us to heaven.
1 Thess 4 says that Christ comes back and takes the saints up to heaven.
Matthew 17 - Moses and Elijah - already in heaven

That means your only choices are

1. Pre-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven -- then something else at the second coming - millennium.
2. Mid-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven - then something else at the second coming - millennium
3. Pos-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven at the 2nd coming. - and desolate earth during millennium

That’s pure hypothesis. The grammatical-historical perception is that the Messianic kingdom is established upon the earth.

nonsense.

There is no grammatical-historical teaching that the post-trib pre-mill rapture at the 2nd coming does not take the saints to heaven as Christ promised in John 14.

 

[BobRyan]

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.” Jer 23:5 (KJV unless otherwise stated)

Jeremiah predicts the first coming of Christ and the Jews accepting Him. That did not happen.

1. 490 years of Jewish probation ended at the time of Christ (shortly after His ascension into heaven) - the same event predicted by that 490 year timeline of Daniel 9

2. As Paul confirms in 1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

3. As Christ predicted in Matthew 23
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

4. Thus we have switched from the "nation-church" model of evangelizing the whole World - to the "persecuted church" model of evangelizing the whole world.

Rom 2 "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"



==============================
Now it is the "second coming" that we look for and Christ wipes out the wicked at the second coming - and takes all the saints (including any saved-Jews that may exist at that time) to heaven.

In its explanation of Isa 11:4, the SDA bible commentary affirms Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom at his return (the second coming), 1000 years before the phenomena of Rev 21:1-3. What it does not say is that Christ rules on Earth at the second coming.

Rather Christ "rules with a rod of iron" Rev 19 - at the second coming described in Rev 19. Ruling with a rod of Iron is always the term for no-mercy... only justice. And that is what the wicked get at the 2nd coming.. are dead during the millennium and then at the great white throne judgment which gets to them into the lake of fire... see Rev 20.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

It is the only way that can happen.

John 14 says that Christ is coming back to take us to heaven.
1 Thess 4 says that Christ comes back and takes the saints up to heaven.
Matthew 17 - Moses and Elijah - already in heaven

That means your only choices are

1. Pre-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven -- then something else at the second coming - millennium.
2. Mid-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven - then something else at the second coming - millennium
3. Pos-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven at the 2nd coming. - and desolate earth during millennium



nonsense.

There is no grammatical-historical teaching that the post-trib pre-mill rapture at the 2nd coming does not take the saints to heaven as Christ promised in John 14.

Nonsense!

“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:10

The saints come with Christ after being caught up with him in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17), the first heavens, then return with him to judge the sheep and the goats. Zechariah parallels the event, the Day of the Lord, when Christ’s “feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives.”

“On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.” Zech 14:4-5 (ESV emphasis added)

The antitype of the Festival of the Tabernacles, Sukkot, occurs at this time in which the goats who survive Christ's return, mentioned in Matt 25, will be coerced by the "rod of iron" to observe the ordinance.

“Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.” Zech 14:16 ESV

Those who survive of the nations parallel the goats in Matt 25, while the sheep represent those of the nations who care for the saints as they are being persecuted by the goats, just prior to Christ’s return.

You can rely on EGW’s work as canon if you desire; I desire to hold the 66 books of the Bible as canon, exclusively.

 

[BobRyan]

let's read the actual Bible.

Rev 19 all the wicked that remain on earth killed at the 2nd coming. desolate earth
Rev 14 all the saints taken... then all the wicked killed. desolate earth

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.


I choose the Bible.

The desolate earth perception chafes against the affirmation that the “wolf also shall dwell with the lamb” in the same context that Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom, which the SDA commentary maintains as entering the 1000 years.

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.” Isa 11:6
.

1. the SDA commentary does not say that on earth during the millennium lions lay day with lambs -- and we both know it.

2. 2 Peter 3 says that the "earth melts" at the "day of the Lord" which includes the second coming. OT and NT writers often collapse the entire 2nd coming, millennium, lake of fire and New Earth events into one "day of the Lord" - where all those events that happen over the period of a literal 1000 years is "as one day" with the Lord.

SDA Bible commentary separates them out as distinct events just as does the book of Revelation.

 

[BobRyan]

Where does the Bible say a post-trib, pre-millennialism requires by definition that the saints be in heaven during the millennium?

It is the only way that can happen.

John 14 says that Christ is coming back to take us to heaven.
1 Thess 4 says that Christ comes back and takes the saints up to heaven.
Matthew 17 - Moses and Elijah - already in heaven

That means your only choices are

1. Pre-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven -- then something else at the second coming - millennium.
2. Mid-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven - then something else at the second coming - millennium
3. Pos-trib pre-mill rapture to heaven at the 2nd coming. - and desolate earth during millennium

That’s pure hypothesis. The grammatical-historical perception is that the Messianic kingdom is established upon the earth.

nonsense.

There is no grammatical-historical teaching that the post-trib pre-mill rapture at the 2nd coming does not take the saints to heaven as Christ promised in John 14.

Nonsense!

ok...now this ought to be good...

“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:10

1. Does not say "when"
2. Does not exclude the "Rod of iron" reign of Rev 19 or the "Rod of Iron reign" of the saints in Rev 3 which is all about judging / destroying the wicked. And that happens for the living wicked at the 2nd coming .. then for all the wicked of all ages after the millennium.

The saints come with Christ after being caught up with him in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17)

Nonsense - the saints go to be with Christ at the second coming 1 Thess 4:15-17 " and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- caught up in the air ... because as Christ said in John 14 "I go to prepare a place for you --" in My Father's house... "And if I go I will come again and receive you to myself in order that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

The "Big bounce" doctrine that you speculate where the saints bounce high into the air at the second coming then float softly back down to Earth - is a strained wrench of that text.

Christ takes the saints to heaven at the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

You can rely on EGW’s work as canon if you desire; I desire to hold the 66 books of the Bible as canon, exclusively.

We have not even gotten to the point where I would need to quote from what God told Ellen White-- your views don't stand the sola-scriptura test of what the Bible itself teaches.

 

[BobRyan]

“Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.” Zech 14:16 ESV

Those who survive of the nations parallel the goats in Matt 25, while the sheep represent those of the nations who care for the saints as they are being persecuted by the goats, just prior to Christ’s return.

The actions of the wicked and the rebellion you reference in Zech 14 is a case of Zechariah writing before the first coming of Christ and not predicting that the Jews would kill the Messiah at all.

The failure of the Jews excluded them from the promises made under the nation-church model which was deleted at the end of the 490 year period of probation given to them.

Now it is the "persecuted church model" under which evangelism proceeds.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jeremiah predicts the first coming of Christ and the Jews accepting Him. That did not happen.

Now it is the "second coming" that we look for and Christ wipes out the wicked at the second coming - and takes all the saints (including any saved-Jews that may exist at that time) to heaven.

In its explanation of Isa 11:4, the SDA bible commentary affirms Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom at his return (the second coming), 1000 years before the phenomena of Rev 21:1-3. What it does not say is that Christ rules on Earth at the second coming.

Rather Christ "rules with a rod of iron" Rev 19 - at the second coming described in Rev 19. Ruling with a rod of Iron is always the term for no-mercy... only justice. And that is what the wicked get at the 2nd coming.. are dead during the millennium and then at the great white throne judgment which gets to them into the lake of fire... see Rev 20.

Deut 18:15-22 states that the test of a prophet is if what they predict comes to pass. You've just made Jeremiah out to be a false prophet and EGW a true one. The SDAs really have it skewed. You have those who were ordained to reject the cornerstone in 1 Pet 2:7-8 determine the destiny of Israel. It wasn't their kingdom to accept. Actually the kingdom belongs to those who are the elect of Israel, Rom 11:5, and they avowed Christ but it didn't manifest because it is the second advent when it is destined to appear and fulfill Jer 23:5. Christ had to come and suffer to fulfill Isa 54 before he returns as king of kings.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The actions of the wicked and the rebellion you reference in Zech 14 is a case of Zechariah writing before the first coming of Christ and not predicting that the Jews would kill the Messiah at all.

The failure of the Jews excluded them from the promises made under the nation-church model which was deleted at the end of the 490 year period of probation given to them.

Now it is the "persecuted church model" under which evangelism proceeds.

Again, this makes Zechariah a false prophet and limits God's foreknowledge; Adventism has an open theists perception, which denies God's perfect foreknowledge.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

We have not even gotten to the point where I would need to quote from what God told Ellen White-- your views don't stand the sola-scriptura test of what the Bible itself teaches.

Like I said, don't parse words; you expect everyone to accept EGW on par with the Bible, as canon, that she cannot be questioned; that's popery!

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Bob Ryan wrote: Jeremiah predicts the first coming of Christ and the Jews accepting Him. That did not happen…. The actions of the wicked and the rebellion you reference in Zech 14 is a case of Zechariah writing before the first coming of Christ and not predicting that the Jews would kill the Messiah at all. The failure of the Jews excluded them from the promises made under the nation-church model which was deleted at the end of the 490 year period of probation given to them. Now it is the "persecuted church model" under which evangelism proceeds.

This is not sola-scriptura but private interpretation, which both dispensationalism as well as Covenantalism, replacement theology, also hold more or less. As I stated previously, two advents were prophesied and the historicist-Adventist, Frank W. Hardy, affirms this in his thesis, concerning Dan 11, cited below:

“From a chiastic point of view the chapter directs attention to Christ's death on the cross at His first coming in vs. 22. From a linear point of view the same material shows some of the challenges to be faced by those who would base their faith on that event and the action He would finally take to rescue them at His second coming in 12:1.25 Thus, Dan 11 indicates that on two separate occasions Christ would personally invade human history. To act within human history He must first come to earth where it takes place. The emphasis here is on Christ in relation to earth and especially His two advents.” (Frank W. Hardy, “Some Relationships Among Dan 8, 9, and 10-12,” Historicism.Org, modified 02/15/10, p. 10, http://www.historicism.org/Documents/Jrnl/Dan08_09_10-12.pdf)​

He goes on to substantiate these two advents parallel the ceremonies conveyed in the Hebraic cultic calendar.

“In between these two special occasions when Christ comes to earth, He ministers as High Priest for us in heaven (Heb 8:1-2). His work there is the reality to which the types and symbols of it in the sanctuary looked forward. So it is not that Christ's ministry corresponds to the ancient types, but rather that the ancient types correspond to His ministry.” (Ibid.)​

The point being, which Ryan and Hardy miss as Adventists, is that the spring festivals represent Christ’s death through the rejection by the builders.

“So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone," and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense. "They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.” 1 Pet 2:7-8

Being destined to reject Christ must be distorted in order to interpret Jer 23:5 as Ryan did above: “Jeremiah predicts the first coming of Christ and the Jews accepting Him. That did not happen.” A number of the prophets substantiate that Christ was to be rejected and not that he was to be accepted, the latter being the false doctrine that leads to the desolate earth doctrine and other misrepresentations we find in dispensationalism and replacement theology, the latter of which Adventism imbibes. Zechariah is one example that prophesied the rejection of Christ by the shepherds.

“The sound of the wail of the shepherds, for their glory is ruined! The sound of the roar of the lions, for the thicket of the Jordan is ruined.… For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of this land, declares the LORD. Behold, I will cause each of them to fall into the hand of his neighbor, and each into the hand of his king, and they shall crush the land, and I will deliver none from their hand.… In one month I destroyed the three shepherds. But I became impatient with them, and they also detested me” Zec 11:3, 6, 8

The detestation of Christ by the shepherds cannot be one prior to the Babylonian captivity, as Zechariah is writing after the return, after the 70 years in Dan 9:2. Furthermore, another return from a diaspora is prophesied by Zechariah, which again cannot be referring to the Babylonian captivity that had ended in Zechariah’s time.

"I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD. "I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as many as they were before. Though I scattered them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return.” Zec 10:6-9

The diaspora that Zechariah prophesied is none other than the one in 70 AD. Yet, it is obvious that Israel was not rejected, inasmuch as the object of the autumnal festivals represent their final judgment, not the 490 years of Dan 9 that Ryan misrepresented, that separate those who are truly Christ’s from those who are not as well as Christ’s return as king of kings. As Paul testified:

“Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Rom 11:25-29

The distortion that Jer 23:5 predicted that the Jews would accept Christ is not sola-scriptura but private interpretation and being wise in one’s own sight. Jer 23:5 prophesies of the second advent and the autumnal festivals. Jeremiah prophesied that Christ would return to establish his kingdom of justice and righteousness on earth!